A crazy experiment...My RX-A3010 vs Rotel RMB-1095
pearsall001
Posts: 5,068
I never really gave my Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A3010 a workout since I've had it. I had it mated with my Rotel RMB-1095 / 5 channel amp from the git-go. The Yammie was only powering the front/rear presence & the back surrounds, & it did it without breaking a sweat.
I just picked up a pair of d-Sonic M2-600M monoblocks which are powerhouses at 600w/8ohm for my mains. They sound incredible & are making some fine music with my KEF's. Dan (mantis) was over last Sunday & we had a great time tweaking, enjoying my system. He suggested that I completely disconnect the Rotel & let the Yammie fly powering all channels. But since I'm running an 11.2 system & the Yammie only has 9 amps on board the d-Sonic monos are staying for the mains. The Yammie is powering the other 9 channels.
Dan always liked the Yammie sound & the power that their AVR's deliver. I am a fan of power & plenty of it, but I'm a little reserved in how well the Yammie will do in replacing the Rotel for this test. After all the Rotel is 200w/8ohm x 5. I'll run it this way for quite some time to get a feel for it. I have all channels calibrated to 75db as my reference & so far there's nothing missing that I can hear. I haven't put a BD on yet which will be the true test. If it passes my test who knows what will become of the Rotel. So far everything is crystal clear, dialoque is crisp & sharp & it's sounding fantastic. Relieving the Yammie from having to power my mains I'm sure is a huge plus.
I just picked up a pair of d-Sonic M2-600M monoblocks which are powerhouses at 600w/8ohm for my mains. They sound incredible & are making some fine music with my KEF's. Dan (mantis) was over last Sunday & we had a great time tweaking, enjoying my system. He suggested that I completely disconnect the Rotel & let the Yammie fly powering all channels. But since I'm running an 11.2 system & the Yammie only has 9 amps on board the d-Sonic monos are staying for the mains. The Yammie is powering the other 9 channels.
Dan always liked the Yammie sound & the power that their AVR's deliver. I am a fan of power & plenty of it, but I'm a little reserved in how well the Yammie will do in replacing the Rotel for this test. After all the Rotel is 200w/8ohm x 5. I'll run it this way for quite some time to get a feel for it. I have all channels calibrated to 75db as my reference & so far there's nothing missing that I can hear. I haven't put a BD on yet which will be the true test. If it passes my test who knows what will become of the Rotel. So far everything is crystal clear, dialoque is crisp & sharp & it's sounding fantastic. Relieving the Yammie from having to power my mains I'm sure is a huge plus.
"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
Post edited by pearsall001 on
Comments
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I think you will be just fine with the Yamaha by itself. I have had sunfire signatures in my rig for 4 years, but recently sold the last one off after I found the pioneer did just fine for the surround locations. My Carver tube amps take care of the mains with great authority. Another surprise is that the SC37 is a damn good two channel preamp as well. If you decide to sell the Rotel, I think you could find other areas to improve your rig that would offer greater benefit for the investment.
I am using the Sunfire money to develop another set of tube amps.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
Have fun Phil, but I will NEVER trust any receiver to power any of my speakers by itself ever again. If I tried it and couldn't hear a difference that would mean my ears are failing with age not that the receiver can power the speakers better or the same as any amp especially not a Rotel 1095!Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
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Most High end receivers can power a large room with ease. They also sound very good in doing so. Good luck with your experiment Phil , should be fun.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Most High end receivers can power a large room with ease. They also sound very good in doing so. Good luck with your experiment Phil , should be fun.
Depends on the speakers, most 8 ohm speakers I would agree, but throw 7 4ohm speakers on a receiver and your asking for trouble.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
I did something similar with my AVR (Yamaha RX-V1800) that is mated to my Musical Fidelity A5 Integrated Amp with HT Bypass.
The A5 powers my front speakers either directly for music or is an external amp fed from the AVR preouts for movies.
I backed out the A5 altogether and ran my Marantz Pearl SACD player directly to the AVR.
Within moments I had made up my mind - no contest....the A5 is the better component both as pre/power or even as just an amp.
The Yamaha sounded grainy and flat compared to the A5.
A5 went right back in.
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
Doesn't seem like a crazy experiment at all.
I have done the same with multiple separate amps and a new Pio Elite receiver and had results similar to Eric's. Back went the best amp.
Also found gains in sound quality could be had with a separate dedicated pre versus using the receiver as a pre, although the gains were not as drastic.Parasound C1, T3, HCA-3500, HCA-2205A, P/DD1550, Pioneer DV-79avi, Oppo BDP-83, WD Media Server W/HDD,
Dynaudio Contour 3.3, Dynaudio Contour T2.1, Polk OWM3, Polk DSW micropro 1000 (x2),
Pioneer Kuro 50" Plasma, Phillips Pronto Control w/Niles HT-MSU. -
I'm not saying that the Yammie AVR sounds 'bad'.
By itself at moderate volumes it sounds pretty good but with the A5 in, my reaction is more like "wow - now that sounds REALLY good".
An AVR is a swiss army knife full of all sorts of features for both video and audio. You want the next step up in audio?? Get an audio component, imho, of course :cheesygrin:
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
The A5 is a nice piece of gear you have there Erik, definately a few notches up the ladder from most any AVR.
I think what some are experiencing who have been in this hobby awhile now are the laws of diminishing returns. The sound quality some midline gear puts out today might have been considered higher end back a few years. I like to call it trickle down sound quality. Once you achieve a certain level in this hobby, spending thousands to gain smaller increments of SQ looses it's appeal. Granted that level is different for all, but generally speaking.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Depends on the speakers, most 8 ohm speakers I would agree, but throw 7 4ohm speakers on a receiver and your asking for trouble.
All speakers are 8ohm. The mains are well taken care of with the mono blocks. The DefTech Pro Monitor 1000 series (front & rear presence) are especially easy at 91dB & aren't called into duty as much as the other surround speakers. So far I am impressed with the sound quality exhibited by the Yamaha & it's been more than up to the task of delivering my reference level listening requirements. Not done comparing by a long shot though. Not until I run a lot more demanding movies thru the syatem. Also I use the 80Hz XO setting for all speakers except the mains (60Hz). This really takes a lot of pressure off of any amp."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
That 8ohm rating for your mains is BS."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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That 8ohm rating for your mains is BS.
I already knew that about the KEF Q900's. They can dip pretty darn low. Hence the new M2-600M mono blocks. I'll never have to be concerned about properly driving any speakers as my mains now. Thanks for the info though. I don't know why KEF doesn't make that clear?"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
Wilson Audio is even worse, they have speakers that dip down to 2ohms in the bass section and call them 8ohm. :eek:"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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It wont be until you put the Rotel back in. Thats when you will hear what you've been missing. It's not always easy to tell when something sounds worse but it's usually easy to tell when something sounds better.At least that is how it has been for me.Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
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Phil has the subs taking care of the lower end of the spectrum so the speakers aren't needing that much power to begin with. Would not surprise me one bit if the differences were hard to pick out. Maybe a tad less midbass slam without the Rotel. Which frankly Phil, those big monos in my opinion need a heavier load to shine. I would try those Kefs without the subs on those mono's and see how they do for 2 channel anyway.
Talking with the head honcho at Butler when I was inquiring about their amp, he told me the heavier the load, the better an amplifier performs. Of course too heavy of a load and we know what happens then. Kinda like reving it up and dropping the clutch to get that horsepower to the wheels.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Phil has the subs taking care of the lower end of the spectrum so the speakers aren't needing that much power to begin with. Would not surprise me one bit if the differences were hard to pick out. Maybe a tad less midbass slam without the Rotel. Which frankly Phil, those big monos in my opinion need a heavier load to shine. I would try those Kefs without the subs on those mono's and see how they do for 2 channel anyway.
Talking with the head honcho at Butler when I was inquiring about their amp, he told me the heavier the load, the better an amplifier performs. Of course too heavy of a load and we know what happens then. Kinda like reving it up and dropping the clutch to get that horsepower to the wheels.
Don't let that advertised 8ohm load fool you, the Q900's can go to a 2ohm load which is pretty tough on any amp. I picked up the monos knowing that & also that they will be around for a looooong time to handle any other speakers that might grace my living quarters. The beauty of the monos is in their low level presentation & well as when the gas is full throttle. You can never have too much quality, clean power. Trust me nothing is being wasted. These puppies are flat out awesome!
So far it's been pretty tough to really come to grips with any difference in performance between the Yamaha or Rotel handling the surrounds, center, & presence speakers. The beauty of having all speakers XO set at 80Hz except the mains is that the amp does not have to strain itself too much & let the subs do what they do best.
I do run the KEF's in Pure Direct which leaves them in full range mode. They dig pretty deep down to approx 35Hz with plenty of bass control & finess. However in 2 channel stereo mode with the Velo subs it's a whole different ball game. Now if anyone heard my system without the subs they would be more than pleased with the performance. In fact they would probably say I was nuts for even thinking about adding subs. But once you understand how music really needs to be presented & with the subs being properly calibrated to the room there's just no comparison. Sorry, but no speaker on it's own is any match with one's with dialed in subs."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
I'd sell the Rotel and pick up another Mono for the center or trade in the 2 mono's and get a 5 or 7 channel D sonic amp. That would be really nice.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Phil, I get what your saying, but with the subs in the mix are they ever really hitting below 6 ohms ? Curious is all. The top end isn't using that much power and if the lows are handled by the subs, where's the current draw coming from ? I'm in your camp of any speaker can benefit from clean power, for me anyway, there's a fine line between more than enough power and wasted power. Not saying your hitting that, just food for thought.
Dan, good suggestion too.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Yes, all the way up to 600hz.Phil, I get what your saying, but with the subs in the mix are they ever really hitting below 6 ohms ?"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
I'd sell the Rotel and pick up another Mono for the center or trade in the 2 mono's and get a 5 or 7 channel D sonic amp. That would be really nice.
I like the idea of another mono for the center. If anything I'd probably be more inclined to sell the Rotel & let the Yamaha handle the surrounds. Having the front 3 matched with the same amplification sounds like a plan. One step at a time. LOL!!!Phil, I get what your saying, but with the subs in the mix are they ever really hitting below 6 ohms ? Curious is all. The top end isn't using that much power and if the lows are handled by the subs, where's the current draw coming from ? I'm in your camp of any speaker can benefit from clean power, for me anyway, there's a fine line between more than enough power and wasted power. Not saying your hitting that, just food for thought.
Dan, good suggestion too.
With two subs in the mix it's about a lot more than just bottom end. Now the mains are excelling at what they do best with plenty of juice feeding them. Everything just opens up effortlessly!!! I'm really, really enjoying these new mono's...they're staying put for the long haul. Nothing at all is being wasted."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
Phil, I get what your saying, but with the subs in the mix are they ever really hitting below 6 ohms ? Curious is all. The top end isn't using that much power and if the lows are handled by the subs, where's the current draw coming from ? I'm in your camp of any speaker can benefit from clean power, for me anyway, there's a fine line between more than enough power and wasted power. Not saying your hitting that, just food for thought.
Dan, good suggestion too.
When you own Dual Velodyne sub's , it's very intelligent to use them for everything. They are quick and natural sounding , they don't sound like typical theater subs. Warm and pleasing they are. With the mains being in small , yes it takes a lot of load off the Mono bucks. Yes he probably has to much power but at the price points of these amps , he didn't break the bank and waste money on power. What he did do is buy some interesting sounding amps that are very balanced from top to bottom. A deeper tweak would be to test the main channel speakers in the room and cross them over correctly. I believe I set them up at 60hz , is that right Phil? I do remember playing around with the crossover setting and as warm and natural as the Kef's sounded , I felt it was a good idea to send them a bit more info. He got all kinds of amp power so no issues with dynamic range running lower end , but no sense in running full range to any speaker unless it can reproduce those hz.
I really like the idea of getting another Mono for the center. That would really make the front sound even and natural. I guess I'll have to make another trip and tweak in the Mono for the center. I'll bring along my sweep programs and really test the in room response of the center. Then we can dial her in to make her sound incredible.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Dan, you set them at 40Hz which I thought was a tad too low but I'm not complaining one bit at all at how well they sound at that XO point. I'll tell you though I have so glad I went with those mono's. It's a whole different listening scenerio I have going on now. Couldn't be happier. Now for the center...can it be less power than the mains or should it be identical? That would be one awesome front end."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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I'd hook one of your mono blocks to your center channel and see how it sounds. You wouldn't need that big of a mono on your center. A smaller will do just fine. Once calibrated it'll blend nicely.
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Can you buy just one Mono for the center? Yes the power should be identical so the dynamic range is exactly the same. Your center channel matches your mains and should get the same amount of power.pearsall001 wrote: »Dan, you set them at 40Hz which I thought was a tad too low but I'm not complaining one bit at all at how well they sound at that XO point. I'll tell you though I have so glad I went with those mono's. It's a whole different listening scenerio I have going on now. Couldn't be happier. Now for the center...can it be less power than the mains or should it be identical? That would be one awesome front end.
Ok I remember now , it's because how well they went low. I thought they sounded really good.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Can you buy just one Mono for the center? Yes the power should be identical so the dynamic range is exactly the same. Your center channel matches your mains and should get the same amount of power.
Ok I remember now , it's because how well they went low. I thought they sounded really good.
If the center was identical to the fronts I'd say yes the amplification would benefit. Since the center is much smaller with a different sensitivity rating and the system will be calibrated I doubt anyone could tell the difference once calibrated. His mono blocks are way to much power for his mains so it'll be a waste to run it on that small of a center. Just my opinion though.
Why not just buy their 5 or 7 channel amp? It'll be much cheaper? -
Phil, unless d-Sonic tells you different, I'd get a M2-250M for the center and call it a day."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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Phil, unless d-Sonic tells you different, I'd get a M2-250M for the center and call it a day.
Funny you should say that Mike. I already talked to Dennis at d-Sonic & he recommended the M2-250M also for center channel duty. His reasoning comes from testing the actual output from the center. I forget what he said he used for testing (some sort of instrument) but in a nut shell he said that the center is mostly vocals which are an easy drive for an amp to reproduce. He did say that the M2-600M would not be overkill but simply put he is just trying to save me some $$$$. But for now believe it or not the Yamaha is performing beautifully running the center & all surrounds including the presence speakers. Go figure!!! I'm not ready to abandon my little experiment just yet."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
If the center was identical to the fronts I'd say yes the amplification would benefit. Since the center is much smaller with a different sensitivity rating and the system will be calibrated I doubt anyone could tell the difference once calibrated. His mono blocks are way to much power for his mains so it'll be a waste to run it on that small of a center. Just my opinion though.
Why not just buy their 5 or 7 channel amp? It'll be much cheaper?
I'm actually thinking about one of the d-Sonic 3 channel amps to power the center & surrounds. The mono's I have for the mains are by no means too much power. My mains can dip into 2ohm territory & these guys are poised & ready with all the dynamic headroom to handle anything thrown at them. Nothing worse than pushing an amp into clipping. No worries there with these guys."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
