SONIC CAPS or CLARITY CAPS?

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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,243
    edited January 2013
    Lol!!
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  • PolkMaster1
    PolkMaster1 Posts: 847
    edited January 2013
    Tool fan -

    Can you describe how the sonic caps + duelund resistor combo sounds versus the mill resistors for those of us who are contemplating a resistor move to the duelund carbon cast silvers. Do the duelunds sound clear, warm, sterile, or clinical overthe mills? I am happy with my sonic cap mills combo, but if the duelunds add clarity without sounding sterile, I may be joining you in this path.

    VR3 - do you have any sonic comparisons of the mr series over the sonic caps in the driver section? Same questions as above - do the mr's sound more detailed, clinical, smoother, better imaging over the sonic caps? Also, does clarity cap offer custom values for the caps? For those of us who have the 1.2tls, we would need a 13.5 uF cap which cc does not have in their mr series. We could purchase two 6.6 uF caps to make a 13.2 cap, but if cc offers custom values, this may be something to consider.

    If one were ambitious enough to completely overhaul a 1.2tl crossover with clarity cap mr and duelund carbon cast silver resistors, one could expect to drop $2000 on such upgrades. For cost cutting, some may go the route of combining tool fan and polkmaster1 suggests - keep the sonic caps in the tweeter area and upgrade all resistors to duelund, and the mw caps to cc mr caps. This can cut the upgrade costs significantly.
    Statistics show that 98% of us will die at some point in our lifetime.

    The other 2% will work for WalMart.
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  • PolkMaster1
    PolkMaster1 Posts: 847
    edited January 2013
    VR3 wrote: »
    Clear out ur pm box Polkmaster

    Done.
    Statistics show that 98% of us will die at some point in our lifetime.

    The other 2% will work for WalMart.
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  • PolkMaster1
    PolkMaster1 Posts: 847
    edited January 2013
    Happy New Year to All!!!

    May your upgrades to your Polk audio speakers be full of bliss for 2013!!!
    Statistics show that 98% of us will die at some point in our lifetime.

    The other 2% will work for WalMart.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,646
    edited January 2013
    The MR is the only capacitor I have heard that I would describe as not even there... you feel like all you are hearing is the true signal, plain and simple. Every other capacitor, even the likes of the ESA seem to add its own flavor which is not exactly good or bad...

    Mills resistors are EXTREMELY colored sounding and I hardly ever recommend or use these resistors. Mundorf Mox is by far my favorite resistor for the money.

    I used Duelund in my Super Towers but it was a pretty good match between it, the Mox and the Mills MRC50. The Duelund was almost sterile to my ears.

    Clarity does not really do custom orders unless you order a boatload of capacitors... something like the MR would not make any sense. As long as it is within 5% you will be fine...

    I am a 620v MR dealer, not the 400v.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited January 2013
    I will agree and say Mills do sound colored. They definitely add some warmth to the sound, which you may or may not prefer... I also agree with Trey's opinion of ESA and MR caps. Duelund CAST caps are similar to MRs, but add a small amount of warmth to the sound.

    But as far as Duelund resistors go, I find them very transparent and not thin sounding at all...unless they're exposing faults in the speaker's design.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • headrott
    headrott Posts: 5,496
    edited January 2013
    I agree with Face that the Duelund resistors are extremely transparent and do not sound thin to me. If you like the sound of your gear prior to the crossovers inyour speakers (including Duelund Cast resistors) you will be extremely happy with the resulting sound from the speakers. This is assuming you like the Caps you have installed in the crossovers. I recommend the ESA line as they are more comperable (price wise) to the Sonicaps and repoduce much better sound (as I have stated previously) compared to Sonicaps including: soundstage, detail, clarity, transparency, and imaging. To my ears the ESA line and Duelund resistors do not sound sterile and lifeless. They are more sterile sounding than Sonicaps/Mills however. But, as previously stated they (Sonicap/Mills) do not sound veiled and have a loss of detail and do not image as well.
    Relayer-Big-O-Poster.jpg
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion." :\
    My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee
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  • PolkMaster1
    PolkMaster1 Posts: 847
    edited January 2013
    I just got my Clarity Caps ESX and Mundorf MoX Resistors from VR3. Thanks much!!!
    My next couple of weekends are now booked. Oh man these things are BIG!!! Caps on steroids!!!
    Statistics show that 98% of us will die at some point in our lifetime.

    The other 2% will work for WalMart.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,646
    edited January 2013
    Nice! Pictures! *drool*
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • dhart86
    dhart86 Posts: 1,594
    edited January 2013
    What do you guy think about this crossover combo

    Sonic Caps for HF > Dayton LF shunts and Dueland resistor (Phenolic type)?
    Main Rig:
    Antipodes DX > Roon > PS Audio Directstream Jr.>deHavilland Ultraverve 3 >Belles Reference 150a >Harbeth C7 ES3


    Second Rig:
    Roon> PS Audio Directstream Jr Bridge II > EE Minimax pre (Tutay mods) >Belles 150A Ref >Monitor 5 (Westmassguy-modded)


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  • headrott
    headrott Posts: 5,496
    edited January 2013
    Personally, I would not use Dayton at all, but it could be argued I'm spoiled rotten by higher quality caps.:smile: I would try all Sonicaps at the minimum (IMO of course). The Duelund resistors are top notch and if you use these I would definately go Sonicaps all the way (or even better IMO are Carity Cap ESA's).
    Relayer-Big-O-Poster.jpg
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion." :\
    My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,559
    edited January 2013
    I agree with Greg, use all Sonicap. Some folks say it doesn't matter what shunt caps you use, I disagree and as it turns out, Sonicap's are excellent shunt caps.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • dhart86
    dhart86 Posts: 1,594
    edited January 2013
    Greg and Jesse......thanks for your feedback. I wasn't really sure about the Daytons, but someone did mention to me that the shunts didn't make as much difference, so why not save a couple $$.

    I think I will go all Sonic Cap and Dueland! Thanks for the quick response
    Main Rig:
    Antipodes DX > Roon > PS Audio Directstream Jr.>deHavilland Ultraverve 3 >Belles Reference 150a >Harbeth C7 ES3


    Second Rig:
    Roon> PS Audio Directstream Jr Bridge II > EE Minimax pre (Tutay mods) >Belles 150A Ref >Monitor 5 (Westmassguy-modded)


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  • PolkMaster1
    PolkMaster1 Posts: 847
    edited February 2013
    My question is two-fold:
    1. What is a shunt-cap
    2. What is a shunt-cap for a speaker crossover-board?
    Statistics show that 98% of us will die at some point in our lifetime.

    The other 2% will work for WalMart.
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  • PolkMaster1
    PolkMaster1 Posts: 847
    edited February 2013
    My question is two-fold:
    1. What is a shunt-cap
    2. What is a shunt-cap for a speaker crossover-board?
    Statistics show that 98% of us will die at some point in our lifetime.

    The other 2% will work for WalMart.
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  • westmassguy
    westmassguy Posts: 6,850
    edited February 2013
    PolkMaster1 wrote: »
    My question is two-fold:
    1. What is a shunt-cap
    2. What is a shunt-cap for a speaker crossover-board?
    Crossovers are catagorized by the number of components. A 1st order contains one component and provides a 6db slope, 2nd order has two components and provides a 12db slope, and so on. Polk uses 2nd order crossovers in most of their vintage speakers. http://www.colomar.com/Shavano/crossover12db.html Shows a simple 2nd order crossover.
    The 1st component is in Series with the driver, while the 2nd component is in Parallel with the driver. The 2nd component is the shunt or bypass. It's purpose in a 2nd order crossover, is to aid the 1st component by bypassing certain frequencies before they reach the driver, thereby doubling it's effectiveness.
    The Hi-Pass or Tweeter crossover has a Capacitor in Series with the Tweeter. Capacitors block low frequencies, and pass higher frequencies. The Shunt or Bypass component is an Inductor. Inductors block high frequencies, and pass low frequencies, so in this case, the Inductor is shunting or bypassing low frequencies that made their way through the capacitor.
    The Low-Pass or Woofer crossover is the opposite. The Inductor is in series with the woofer, and the Capacitor is in Parallel. The Capacitor is shunting or bypassing high frequencies that made their way through the Inductor, before they reach the driver, and doubling it's effectiveness.

    I'll add my 2 cents to the conservative vs expensive shunt capacitor debate. From a purely electrical standpoint, it shouldn't matter the quality of the shunt capacitor. As long as the value is the same, the end result should be the same. That's one of the reasons NP Electrolytics are commonly used as shunt capacitors. Electrolytics however, have a finite lifespan while Metalized Polypropylenes do not. Some say they can hear a difference, and I'm not questioning that. No one can tell you what you're hearing or not hearing. My 55 year old ears cannot tell the difference between a Dayton or Sonicap when used as a shunt.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-600, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
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  • westmassguy
    westmassguy Posts: 6,850
    edited February 2013
    To add to my 2 cents (damn, why can't we edit after a few minutes), there is one variable which could explain perceived differences: Equivalent Series Resistance or ESR. The resistance of the less expensive capacitors vs the higher priced, could be substantially different. Since the capacitor and woofer are in parallel with each other, their resistances will interact. How that would affect the voicing of the woofer I do not know.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-600, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited February 2013
    There shouldn't be large ESR differences between film caps, it's only when you compare them to electrolytic that there will be a notable difference.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • westmassguy
    westmassguy Posts: 6,850
    edited February 2013
    Face wrote: »
    There shouldn't be large ESR differences between film caps, it's only when you compare them to electrolytic that there will be a notable difference.
    Point taken. Just trying to explain why some can here a difference while others cannot.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-600, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
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  • PolkMaster1
    PolkMaster1 Posts: 847
    edited February 2013
    Thanks for the info. Much appreciated! I dont mean to hijack the thread, but the question is somewhat relevant -

    I am reading from various sources that cap orientation matters for film caps. The outer foil should face the side which has the lowest impedance or goes to ground. The theory behind this is that the signal flow would be smoother - hence in the audio world - that the sound would be better. Some say they can hear an audible difference when it comes to cap orientation - some do not. Milage may vary due to various equipment and caps being used.

    Since most manufacturers do not mention which side of the outer foil facies on their caps (some do mention), would it be reasonable to assume that the side of the cap that has a slight bulge where the lead comes out is the outter foil side?

    Would it also be reasonable to assume in relation to speaker crossovers, that the outer foil of the cap should face the negative side of signal flow?

    Thanks again everyone!!!
    Statistics show that 98% of us will die at some point in our lifetime.

    The other 2% will work for WalMart.
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