Martin Logan alternatives?

c_corie

I heard their cheapest ESL and liked it, but didn't love the bass, or the seemingly small "sweet spot" any other suggestions...also is their 5k version incredible or pretty similar to the entry level one?

SIDE NOTE-
I have eliminated Paradigm-cheaper Focals-684 B&W and am now down to CM8, Martin Logan, possibly Focal Chorus W, or if I cheap out B&W 683 or 685.

zingo

There are a lot of members who like Magnepans over ML, but that is a preference as always. Give them a listen, and they are very well priced; but sweet spot will probably be small like the ESLs.

I used to own the B&W 6xx series, and after rolling through a number of other speakers/manufacturers, currently have the B&W 8xx series. They are a big step up, and I think the sound quality including bass output is very good for the speaker and driver size.

c_corie

I have heard mange pans but they have even less bass-also why does ML show them setup in huge living rooms-would they actually sound decent when listened to far apart and far away?

marvda1

here are some nice speakers that have stood the test of time but you will need some power as they are 83 db.
http://www.eminent-tech.com/lft8prod.html

tonyb

Maggies are going to be even more finicky on placement and will require you to augment the low end with a sub if you like alot of bass. If you smoke, have little kids, wood burning fireplace in the room, high humidity, then ribbons or Planers aren't for you.

Try some Emerald Physics, not the prettiest speaker out there but good low end and nice sounstage.

Incidently, the 5k version of ESL's is way better.

c_corie

tonyb wrote: »

Maggies are going to be even more finicky on placement and will require you to augment the low end with a sub if you like alot of bass. If you smoke, have little kids, wood burning fireplace in the room, high humidity, then ribbons or Planers aren't for you.

Try some Emerald Physics, not the prettiest speaker out there but good low end and nice sounstage.

Incidently, the 5k version of ESL's is way better.

I live in CT so would that be considered high humidity? Also are ML and those Maggies the same principal/material?

I'm kind of leaning towards them because a lot of what I listen now is Jazz/piano/mellow stuff with only occasional 311/rock/metal.

How do they do for low apartment volumes and what sort of amp would go well with the ESL series?

Face

Maggies and separate subs can sound incredible together. I've never been impressed by MLs, the integration between the planar and woofer is very noticeable, IMO.

polkfarmboy

I love all my Martin Logans dearly and don't notice the woofer integration probs on the new lines. To get get great bass you need power and not just alot of watts but a good high current amp with slam like krell. Martin L's are going to show flaws in the source so you really need to pamper them with good cables and upscale electronics for them to sound good. The ML electromotion sound as good as the 5k Theos or similar as you said and that's because you just get more of the same tech for the money.

The bigger the panel the better but also the more juice will be needed to do them justice. One model I thought sounded better than more expensive models was the ML Vantage as these had great bass with the amps built in but I chose the cheaper Vista with the same panel size. I have my ML system all hooked up to some nice electronics and cables but I never heard them sound as good as they did when they were hooked up to tube gear I sold. I think if you had a good tube setup with a nice dac with high rez recordings then you would never be able to let go of the electrostat tech

ML's use mylar plastic for the sound and maggies use a magnet system that does not get dust problems or need to be wrapped in a sleeve 24/7. There is a speaker that has the no dust probs like the maggies but the same sweet highs like the Logans
http://www.sanderssoundsystems.com/

bobsauto49

I just bought(but have not recieved the ML Montis,and I must say,the sweet spot was large!(larger panel than the Ethos,1step down) The sub blended seamless,to the point u didnt think there was a built in sub! I spent several hours listening between the Montis,and Ethos,(1 and 2 steps above the Theos) and picked the Montis for low freq. and a noticably larger sweet spot! I had a large budget,took my time,visited 3 different "high-end places"and couldn't find a better all-around speaker than the Montis! (of course within a resonable price range) Should be here by friday,and I can't wait!

polkfarmboy

Congrats on taking ownership of a fine set of speakers Bob, I love the new cab designs on the montis. What finish did you choose ?

goofyGAguy

c_corie wrote: »

why does ML show them setup in huge living rooms

Because the people that can afford them tend to have huge living rooms?

polkfarmboy

Well goofy that's not so far from the truth as they are pricey but mainly they need room to breath due to the dipole nature of the panels. One major factor is placement of these and the environment they play in can make all the world of difference more so than other speakers respond to room treatment. I was messing around with the idea of acoustic panels and placed 2 single mattresses in each corner of the room and good god almighty what a difference I heard. I never thought after careful placement that they would sound better without spending thousands more on electronics but I was dead wrong

Obviously my wife made me remove the mattresses from the living room but when I did I was sad after doing so as I knew what I was missing out on. With the dipole panels it was calculated in the milliseconds that it takes the sound to bounce off the back wall and come back to be in phase with the speaker to be a distance of 5 feet from that back wall. So figure 5 feet out from the wall and like a conventional rig where you keep the gear in the middle of the speakers this should be avoided with the electrostats too. You get a much better sound stage and 3D imaging with nothing in between them. Now all this just for two speakers? Try this with 7 of them like I had and you will realize that you need every inch of space available for placement

organ

Like others have mentioned, Maggies are a great alternative. But depending on your bass preference, you might want to consider a sub. I didn't run a sub with my Maggies when I had them and still enjoyed the bass.
Other speakers you can take a look at are Fostex or Lowther based single driver speakers if you have a tube amp. However, they do require a large enclosure to get good bass out of them. The Lowthers I'm running now is "faster" and more detailed than the Maggies I used to own.
Omega makes excellent single driver speakers... www.omegaloudspeakers.com

bobsauto49

Mine are gonna be black. Cherry was the only other option,and I didn't like the cherry at all!! Anything else from ML is a special order,and 4 to 8 weeks out,and a price premium difference! A big $ difference!

Face

organ wrote: »

The Lowthers I'm running now is "faster" and more detailed than the Maggies I used to own.
Omega makes excellent single driver speakers... www.omegaloudspeakers.com

Your Maggies must have been underpowered.

Dawgfish

organ wrote: »

Like others have mentioned, Maggies are a great alternative. But depending on your bass preference, you might want to consider a sub. I didn't run a sub with my Maggies when I had them and still enjoyed the bass.
Other speakers you can take a look at are Fostex or Lowther based single driver speakers if you have a tube amp. However, they do require a large enclosure to get good bass out of them. The Lowthers I'm running now is "faster" and more detailed than the Maggies I used to own.
Omega makes excellent single driver speakers... www.omegaloudspeakers.com

I've got a set of ZU Omens that are psuedo single driver. They do have a super tweeter, but it is crossed over at 12khz, so for all practical purposes the ZUs are single drivers. When I first heard them in my system, It was a huge adjustment coming from some SDA SRS 2s and I just couldn't quite wrap my head around the sound of them. I tried them for a week, but the SDAs soon went back in. Recently I've had to send my tube amp into the shop for some adjustments and minor repairs and while doing so, I picked up a B&K ST125.2 to fill in while my tube amp was out. I decided to try the ZUs again with the B&K in place and it sounded really good. That was surprising to me because the ZUs are very efficient and said to be very good sounding with low powered single ended tube amps. It's strange to me that they sound much better with a SS amp over a 40wpc tube amp. Go figure. I still like my SDAs better, but I think I'm going to keep the ZUs for a while just to have as a change-up every now and then.

organ

Face wrote: »

Your Maggies must have been underpowered.

Nope. They were receiving 400w/ch. I had all the power I needed for my listening needs. Lowthers are best known for their speed. I really enjoyed my Maggies but they just couldn't keep up when compared to Lowther.

Dawgfish wrote: »

I've got a set of ZU Omens that are psuedo single driver. They do have a super tweeter, but it is crossed over at 12khz, so for all practical purposes the ZUs are single drivers. When I first heard them in my system, It was a huge adjustment coming from some SDA SRS 2s and I just couldn't quite wrap my head around the sound of them. I tried them for a week, but the SDAs soon went back in. Recently I've had to send my tube amp into the shop for some adjustments and minor repairs and while doing so, I picked up a B&K ST125.2 to fill in while my tube amp was out. I decided to try the ZUs again with the B&K in place and it sounded really good. That was surprising to me because the ZUs are very efficient and said to be very good sounding with low powered single ended tube amps. It's strange to me that they sound much better with a SS amp over a 40wpc tube amp. Go figure. I still like my SDAs better, but I think I'm going to keep the ZUs for a while just to have as a change-up every now and then.

Interesting story, Dawgfish. Was the tube amp a push/pull design? Single drivers sound best on low powered single ended.
When I had a pair of Omega single driver speakers, I was very surprised to hear how good they sounded when I used a gain clone SS amp. So they can still sound good on some SS like we experienced.
My dealer had a pair of Zu on demo. Great speakers but picky with equipments (like most single drivers). Good to hear you're still keeping them. Don't get rid of them until you've at least heard them on a low powered single ended amp. When you get super high efficiency speakers to ride along on the first watt of a flea amp, it's really something else.

Dawgfish

The tube amp is an Anthem Amp-1. I believe it is a push-pull design. One of my power tubes went bad and it blow out a resistor in the process (which is common with Amp-1s when a power tube goes out). I'm having the resistors for all 4 power tubes replaced, installing a new set of Wing C EL34s, and I'm replacing the stock caps with some Mundorfs as recommended by Chris Johnson with Parts Connexion, who originally designed the amp.

In the meantime I picked up the B&K and while I love B&K amps, I've become a diehard tube guy and its hard for me to go back to SS. Yesterday I recieved a Rogue Magnum Eighty Eight. So far I'm really digging how this sounds with the SDAs. It's going to be interesting to hear how it sounds with the Zus also. I would love to hear how the Zus sound with a low powered single ended amp as you suggest. They are supposed to really shine in that type of setup.

Don't get me wrong, they sound good overall with the Anthem, but the thing I couldnt get over with them was the soundstage depth. The soundstage width was excellent with them, but they had no depth with the Anthem. I tried infinite different placement/set-ups to solve this to no avail. Every other speaker (including non-SDAs) I have tried with the Anthem had no problem with soundstage depth. To the contrary soundstage depth is a strength of the Amp 1. Surprisingly the Zus had much more depth with the B&K, while the SDAs have less soundstage depth with the B&K. My initial impressions with the Rogue is it has a wider and deeper soundstage than the Anthem and is much deeper and wider than the B&K. Synergy can be a fickle thing sometimes.

ErasmusBDragon

Apogees

organ

Dawgfish wrote: »

The tube amp is an Anthem Amp-1. I believe it is a push-pull design. One of my power tubes went bad and it blow out a resistor in the process (which is common with Amp-1s when a power tube goes out). I'm having the resistors for all 4 power tubes replaced, installing a new set of Wing C EL34s, and I'm replacing the stock caps with some Mundorfs as recommended by Chris Johnson with Parts Connexion, who originally designed the amp.

In the meantime I picked up the B&K and while I love B&K amps, I've become a diehard tube guy and its hard for me to go back to SS. Yesterday I recieved a Rogue Magnum Eighty Eight. So far I'm really digging how this sounds with the SDAs. It's going to be interesting to hear how it sounds with the Zus also. I would love to hear how the Zus sound with a low powered single ended amp as you suggest. They are supposed to really shine in that type of setup.

Don't get me wrong, they sound good overall with the Anthem, but the thing I couldnt get over with them was the soundstage depth. The soundstage width was excellent with them, but they had no depth with the Anthem. I tried infinite different placement/set-ups to solve this to no avail. Every other speaker (including non-SDAs) I have tried with the Anthem had no problem with soundstage depth. To the contrary soundstage depth is a strength of the Amp 1. Surprisingly the Zus had much more depth with the B&K, while the SDAs have less soundstage depth with the B&K. My initial impressions with the Rogue is it has a wider and deeper soundstage than the Anthem and is much deeper and wider than the B&K. Synergy can be a fickle thing sometimes.

Yeah, the Amp-1 is push/pull. Good call on replacing all 4 resistors and an excellent choice for your new EL34. The =C= sound amazing.

Magnum 88, WOW, you got a man amp there. Glad you're digging it! Sure man, you gotta give it a go with the Zu also. I bet it will sound much better than the Anthem and B&K. That Magnum is on a different level than the Anthem.

And don't forget, you're 88 features a Triode/Ultralinear switch. You'll want to run it in Triode when trying it out with the Zu. You'll lose half the power (no biggie, Zu is efficient and better with less power) but you'll get a taste of that seductive triode sound. You'll have to check the manual, but I believe you have to power down the amp when switching the mode of operation.

Looks like you're going to be busy (in a good way!) for a while with the new gear. Have fun and let us know how it goes.

Excellent articles here about triode and high eff speakers... http://www.meta-gizmo.net/Tri/index-1.html and www.decware.com

Dawgfish

Thanks Organ! I have the Rogue set on triode now. When researching the amp, everybody seemed to be on board with it sounding better in triode mode, so I set it to that from the get go. The SDA SRS 2s sound great with the Rogue set on triode mode and the amp seems to have all the power they need in triode mode. I may try it set on ultralinear one day for grins and giggles just to compare, but right now it has all the power I need and sounds great.

The amp came with some Wing C KT88s, which I was surprised to see. I'm running a pair of RCA TM BP 5751s and a quad of CBS-Hytron 5814s for signal tubes. The combo sounds incredible. I have a matched quad of NOS GE 6550As on the way. I've heard great things about them so it will be interesting to compare them to the Wing C KT88s.

You're right, the Rogue seems to be in a different league than the Amp 1 from what I can gather from my initial listening impressions. Still though I'm curious to see how the Amp 1 is going to sound with the modified caps. I've heard great things about the mod from George Daniel here on the board and from Chris Johnson. I'm probably going to leave the Rogue in my setup with the SRS 2s and take the Amp 1 home to power my LSiM 703s in my home setup. The Amp-1 sounded really good with the 703s before when I tried it out with them. I love this hobby!

RamZet

c_corie wrote: »

I live in CT so would that be considered high humidity? Also are ML and those Maggies the same principal/material?

I'm kind of leaning towards them because a lot of what I listen now is Jazz/piano/mellow stuff with only occasional 311/rock/metal.

How do they do for low apartment volumes and what sort of amp would go well with the ESL series?

I was going to say if you like Jazz or Piano then the ML are for you. But you're still stuck with that smaller sweet spot. I would say the next best speaker in my experience would be the CM8 like you suggested. The highs and mids can handle all of the percutions.

And if you "cheap out" and go with the 683's you will be very happy with them. The 683 is a well balanced speaker.

dekuda

c_corie wrote: »

I have heard mange pans but they have even less bass-also why does ML show them setup in huge living rooms-would they actually sound decent when listened to far apart and far away?

You need a large room so that you can have more placement options. Plus, you need available electrical outlets which may limit your placement I find that they are tricky with placement since you need them far enough away from the back wall and far enough from the side walls and then toeing them in to your sweet spot area which I find is larger than I thought it would be. That helps with bigger panels. Plus, you will need a sub or two as ML's do not produce enough bass. I purchased my Aeon i's for their midrange and highs.Plus, I got a great price as there are alot of good buys out there on used ones. I am not sure why. And they do require alot of power and the panels require cleaning which I need to do. I have to say that my ML Motif center is the best center channel I have ever had .... How many people cover them when not in use?