2 ch shootout with sources and how they are connected.
mantis
Posts: 17,194
What's up ???
I've been digging into the idea of putting together a Music server. I've done my homework and have some experience with this and found the way I want to do mine.
I've also been convinced the Apple TV 160g and the Apple Tv 3rd gen 1080p isn't the way I want to go. There is enough of a difference in overall sound quality compared to the actual CD playing in a player that I think it's time to build one.
For the sheer hell of it I'll explain my findings and I tried to make it as fair as possible. I wired up all sources with all possible outputs to see if one their is a difference there and IF one sounds better then the other.
So for starters the Apple Tv's
Apple TV 160g
Optical out
HDMI out
Analog out
Apple TV 1080p streamer.
HDMI
Optical out
Cambridge Audio Azur 650bd
HDMI out
analog out
Optical out
Coax digital out
All cables are high quality Audioquest and all devices are using the same exact level in each position for a completely fair comparison.
I used 2 receivers , My Pioneer Elite SC-07 running in pure direct for all sources and signal feeds to bypass any color from MCACC or signal processing.
Rotel RX1050 all analog comparison. I was going to break out my B&K amp but I fgured this was enough to tell all differences.
I listened to one song the entire time that I felt would be a good song for this test. I ran Norah Jones "Shoot the moon". It's a nice clean clear song with excellent voicing. Music has plenty of detail with the Piano and drums really being extremely clear and you can focus on one sound if you choose. Recorded in .wav and Apple Lossless. No difference in sound between the 2 or it's just how the Apple Tv's output the files exactly the same way. Can't tell any differences.
The Apple Tv 160g running analog was the worse sounding out of all the connections on it. The DAC inside which I have no idea what it is must be terrible or lack luster at best. It sounds lifeless and compressed. I compared to HDMI and it's pretty different as HDMI brings out much more detail and clarity. Sounds more open and clear , less compressed and more dynamic. Optical did the same exact thing. I could not tell any differences between HDMI sound and Optical. I can switch signals on the fly so I closed my eyes and really tried to hear any differences , anything. I lost what was playing which was a great thing and I couldn't tell which one was what. Switching back to analog everything fell apart and I was sad on how it sounded. Winner here is a tie with HDMI and Optical
Apple Tv Streamer is the worse sounding device out of all 3 no matter what digital way I send it. It almost sounds exactly like analog on the 160g model , maybe worse. I'm surprised or maybe not as Airplay must compress the files even more so they can stream well. It's noticeable enough to think that maybe the recording was done at 2 different bit rates. Sucks to as this is the coolest way to send music on the fly and super cool control. O well not up to my standards for listening.
Cambridge was amazing. Analog was clear and pristine. Man what a killer sound I get using analog. WOW the internal DAC , output stages are perfectly matched. Cambridge really know how to do analog audio out. Sounds very analog to me. Really warm and fuzzy. I want a blanket and a cup of coffee , dim the lights and stay there all night. WOW I'm so impressed after all these years owning this player , excellent.
HDMI and Optical made no difference once again compared to each other. The reason I was even comparing HDMI and Optical is all the crap I was reading about how HDMI destroys any music listening. Audiophiles learn about jitter and because HDMI has a higher jitter then all other digital connections , it gets ruled out to use for serious listening. I had my concerns as when you are reading about all of this , you think "why the hell would I want to use something thats not the best it could be?" Why add any possible issues to my signal chain that needs not be their? After my listening tonight , I'm not out on HDMI use. I think that anyone would be hard pressed to hear ANY differences at all. I'm pretty sensitive to any change in the sound , tone , dynamic range or overall differences in volume. Which did occur tonight between analog and digital. But I don't take louder for better or worse, I still can hear differences in tone and dynamic range. Louder isn't better. As a musician I'm very use to extreme dynamic range and level changes so going from analog to digital didn't change my opinion one way or another.
Sorry for the rant their I think then type , it's what I do. In this shootout in sound quality with outputs , I like the analog out the best out of the Cmabridge. It sounds more natural and warm. The SC-07 has very good DAC's inside and rare for a receiver in the Wolfson's. But they might not have matched the output stages and power going to the board to juice the DAC as good as Cambridge did. They don't sound bad or much worse then the Cambridge , just sightly more digital or not as warm. You can clearly tell which one is which when you switch with your eyes closed. Every single time I opened my eyes to see what one was playing that I liked more , it was the analog .
So comparing Digital vs digital on the Cambridge playing the same song as the Apple TV160g the Cambridge was much better and sounded more real and open. It was very clear to me that something is going on with Apple Lossless and or the output of the Apple TV 160g. They don't sound as good as the cd does. It's close but not close enough to be cool listening when you want to sit down for a hour or more and just enjoy some good music. It's plenty good enough for whole house music , working out in the basement , washing the car in the driveway and garage , taking a shower , I'm very happy with that part of the sound but not for when I want to listen in the main room.
For **** and giggles I broke out my Rotel and listened to analog on it from the CD player and Apple Tv. Even more clear on how much better the CD sounds compared to Lossless recordings on the ATV. Even more so the Rotel sounds better in analog then the Pioneer does on anything 2 channel. Years ago I thought this was much closer and it somethings felt the Pioneer was better. I also had different speakers and a huge Rotel amp(RMB1095) which sounded different then my rx1050. The 1050 is a pleasure to listen to and use. I love this thing. It's so warm and nice I may use it in my new 2 channel setup I want to build.
Now the real question is going to be , how close can I get a Mac Mini with a Audioquest dragon fly DAC , Audioqest Mini to RCA cable running Itunes with this software running on top of it to correct the issues Itunes has with outputs and coloring the sound. I'm gonna meet the man who wrote this said software and hear it in our store for myself. I'm gonna bring my music and really listen to see if building a server will bring me to CD quality sound. Then I want to take it further and go High Rez and replace my SACD and DVD AUDIO collection and stop spinning discs. For now Spinning disc's is the only way to go. Sad but true.
I've been digging into the idea of putting together a Music server. I've done my homework and have some experience with this and found the way I want to do mine.
I've also been convinced the Apple TV 160g and the Apple Tv 3rd gen 1080p isn't the way I want to go. There is enough of a difference in overall sound quality compared to the actual CD playing in a player that I think it's time to build one.
For the sheer hell of it I'll explain my findings and I tried to make it as fair as possible. I wired up all sources with all possible outputs to see if one their is a difference there and IF one sounds better then the other.
So for starters the Apple Tv's
Apple TV 160g
Optical out
HDMI out
Analog out
Apple TV 1080p streamer.
HDMI
Optical out
Cambridge Audio Azur 650bd
HDMI out
analog out
Optical out
Coax digital out
All cables are high quality Audioquest and all devices are using the same exact level in each position for a completely fair comparison.
I used 2 receivers , My Pioneer Elite SC-07 running in pure direct for all sources and signal feeds to bypass any color from MCACC or signal processing.
Rotel RX1050 all analog comparison. I was going to break out my B&K amp but I fgured this was enough to tell all differences.
I listened to one song the entire time that I felt would be a good song for this test. I ran Norah Jones "Shoot the moon". It's a nice clean clear song with excellent voicing. Music has plenty of detail with the Piano and drums really being extremely clear and you can focus on one sound if you choose. Recorded in .wav and Apple Lossless. No difference in sound between the 2 or it's just how the Apple Tv's output the files exactly the same way. Can't tell any differences.
The Apple Tv 160g running analog was the worse sounding out of all the connections on it. The DAC inside which I have no idea what it is must be terrible or lack luster at best. It sounds lifeless and compressed. I compared to HDMI and it's pretty different as HDMI brings out much more detail and clarity. Sounds more open and clear , less compressed and more dynamic. Optical did the same exact thing. I could not tell any differences between HDMI sound and Optical. I can switch signals on the fly so I closed my eyes and really tried to hear any differences , anything. I lost what was playing which was a great thing and I couldn't tell which one was what. Switching back to analog everything fell apart and I was sad on how it sounded. Winner here is a tie with HDMI and Optical
Apple Tv Streamer is the worse sounding device out of all 3 no matter what digital way I send it. It almost sounds exactly like analog on the 160g model , maybe worse. I'm surprised or maybe not as Airplay must compress the files even more so they can stream well. It's noticeable enough to think that maybe the recording was done at 2 different bit rates. Sucks to as this is the coolest way to send music on the fly and super cool control. O well not up to my standards for listening.
Cambridge was amazing. Analog was clear and pristine. Man what a killer sound I get using analog. WOW the internal DAC , output stages are perfectly matched. Cambridge really know how to do analog audio out. Sounds very analog to me. Really warm and fuzzy. I want a blanket and a cup of coffee , dim the lights and stay there all night. WOW I'm so impressed after all these years owning this player , excellent.
HDMI and Optical made no difference once again compared to each other. The reason I was even comparing HDMI and Optical is all the crap I was reading about how HDMI destroys any music listening. Audiophiles learn about jitter and because HDMI has a higher jitter then all other digital connections , it gets ruled out to use for serious listening. I had my concerns as when you are reading about all of this , you think "why the hell would I want to use something thats not the best it could be?" Why add any possible issues to my signal chain that needs not be their? After my listening tonight , I'm not out on HDMI use. I think that anyone would be hard pressed to hear ANY differences at all. I'm pretty sensitive to any change in the sound , tone , dynamic range or overall differences in volume. Which did occur tonight between analog and digital. But I don't take louder for better or worse, I still can hear differences in tone and dynamic range. Louder isn't better. As a musician I'm very use to extreme dynamic range and level changes so going from analog to digital didn't change my opinion one way or another.
Sorry for the rant their I think then type , it's what I do. In this shootout in sound quality with outputs , I like the analog out the best out of the Cmabridge. It sounds more natural and warm. The SC-07 has very good DAC's inside and rare for a receiver in the Wolfson's. But they might not have matched the output stages and power going to the board to juice the DAC as good as Cambridge did. They don't sound bad or much worse then the Cambridge , just sightly more digital or not as warm. You can clearly tell which one is which when you switch with your eyes closed. Every single time I opened my eyes to see what one was playing that I liked more , it was the analog .
So comparing Digital vs digital on the Cambridge playing the same song as the Apple TV160g the Cambridge was much better and sounded more real and open. It was very clear to me that something is going on with Apple Lossless and or the output of the Apple TV 160g. They don't sound as good as the cd does. It's close but not close enough to be cool listening when you want to sit down for a hour or more and just enjoy some good music. It's plenty good enough for whole house music , working out in the basement , washing the car in the driveway and garage , taking a shower , I'm very happy with that part of the sound but not for when I want to listen in the main room.
For **** and giggles I broke out my Rotel and listened to analog on it from the CD player and Apple Tv. Even more clear on how much better the CD sounds compared to Lossless recordings on the ATV. Even more so the Rotel sounds better in analog then the Pioneer does on anything 2 channel. Years ago I thought this was much closer and it somethings felt the Pioneer was better. I also had different speakers and a huge Rotel amp(RMB1095) which sounded different then my rx1050. The 1050 is a pleasure to listen to and use. I love this thing. It's so warm and nice I may use it in my new 2 channel setup I want to build.
Now the real question is going to be , how close can I get a Mac Mini with a Audioquest dragon fly DAC , Audioqest Mini to RCA cable running Itunes with this software running on top of it to correct the issues Itunes has with outputs and coloring the sound. I'm gonna meet the man who wrote this said software and hear it in our store for myself. I'm gonna bring my music and really listen to see if building a server will bring me to CD quality sound. Then I want to take it further and go High Rez and replace my SACD and DVD AUDIO collection and stop spinning discs. For now Spinning disc's is the only way to go. Sad but true.
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
Post edited by mantis on
Comments
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Thanks for the right up Dan and keep us posted on the Mac mini, I am definately curious to try the Mac mini vs PC using J Rivers
Cheers2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
I have read multiple times over the last few years that Apple TV has poor sound quality. There isn't anything to do with Apple Lossless, it is an Apple TV issue. These two links give some background.
http://www.appledystopia.com/bad-apple/apple-tv-poor-audio-quality/
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1419448/apple-tv-sound-quality-blind-testsLumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Thanks for the links , I'm gonna get my read on.I have read multiple times over the last few years that Apple TV has poor sound quality. There isn't anything to do with Apple Lossless, it is an Apple TV issue. These two links give some background.
http://www.appledystopia.com/bad-apple/apple-tv-poor-audio-quality/
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1419448/apple-tv-sound-quality-blind-testsDan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
I don't even like to eat Apples.I got static in my head
The reflected sound of everything -
LOL. Well Dan I just finished my computer build and have been using XMBC via HDMI and ASIO to play my music back in Direct mode through my Integra DTR 5.9 to my LSi 15's through my Carver 705x. I had previously converted all my music to FLAC and added this as well as my other MP3 music to the computer just so I have everything on it.
It is a sweet sweet sound. I still do plan on getting a transport though just to be able to experience SACD and DVD-A. So when you get rid of your discs let me know
I might buy a few lol.
I need to hook the computer up to the Audio GD NFB-5 via USB and then analog out of the NFB DAC/headphone amp to my Integra to see how much different that sounds...
P.S. I personally dont know if its possible to rip SACD's or DVD-A's in their native format, so if you know how, please let me know for sure!"....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
Parasound C1, T3, HCA-3500, HCA-2205A, P/DD1550, Pioneer DV-79avi, Oppo BDP-83, WD Media Server W/HDD,
Dynaudio Contour 3.3, Dynaudio Contour T2.1, Polk OWM3, Polk DSW micropro 1000 (x2),
Pioneer Kuro 50" Plasma, Phillips Pronto Control w/Niles HT-MSU. -
Personally, I'd get a Mac laptop over the Mini. My reasoning is that I want the screen available and in a small of a footprint as possible. As for output, I avoid HDMI like the plague, I've heard too many nightmare stories about proper synching and have tried to help solve such on two occasions. Though I wish Firewire had caught on as a mainstream digital input on DAC's, USB works just fine.
The Dragonfly is nice intro DAC, I'd also consider the Audioengine D1. If you desire some tube sound the Grant Fidelity DAC11 is a good bargain.Review Site_ (((AudioPursuit)))
Founder/Publisher Affordable$$Audio 2006-13.
Former Staff Member TONEAudio
2 Ch. System
Amplifiers: Parasound Halo P6 pre, Vista Audio i34, Peachtree amp500, Adcom GFP-565 GFA-535ii, 545ii, 555ii
Digital: SimAudio HAD230 DAC, iMac 20in/Amarra,
Speakers: Paradigm Performa F75, Magnepan .7, Totem Model 1's, ACI Emerald XL, Celestion Si Stands. Totem Dreamcatcher sub
Analog: Technics SL-J2 w/Pickering 3000D, SimAudio LP5.3 phono pre
Cable/Wires: Cardas, AudioArt, Shunyata Venom 3 -
Personally, I'd get a Mac laptop over the Mini. My reasoning is that I want the screen available and in a small of a footprint as possible. As for output, I avoid HDMI like the plague, I've heard too many nightmare stories about proper synching and have tried to help solve such on two occasions. Though I wish Firewire had caught on as a mainstream digital input on DAC's, USB works just fine.
The Dragonfly is nice intro DAC, I'd also consider the Audioengine D1. If you desire some tube sound the Grant Fidelity DAC11 is a good bargain.
I think Mantis will be using something like a tablet or an iPhone as his remote/display so the screen doesnt matter."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
I'm pretty sure there is software that will allow you to rip them exactly as they are. I also believe you can repurchase digital copies of them in their native formats online. Maybe HDTracks? I gotta find out from my guy as he's been doing this for years now.EndersShadow wrote: »LOL. Well Dan I just finished my computer build and have been using XMBC via HDMI and ASIO to play my music back in Direct mode through my Integra DTR 5.9 to my LSi 15's through my Carver 705x. I had previously converted all my music to FLAC and added this as well as my other MP3 music to the computer just so I have everything on it.
It is a sweet sweet sound. I still do plan on getting a transport though just to be able to experience SACD and DVD-A. So when you get rid of your discs let me know I might buy a few lol.
I need to hook the computer up to the Audio GD NFB-5 via USB and then analog out of the NFB DAC/headphone amp to my Integra to see how much different that sounds...
P.S. I personally dont know if its possible to rip SACD's or DVD-A's in their native format, so if you know how, please let me know for sure!
I'd like to hear your thoughts on the external DAC vs using the internal. Most of the jobs I do we use a external DAC and it always sounds better then internal.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Have you personally heard HDMI to sound worse then any other output? I have not. I tested the hell out of my system and I couldn't hear any difference. I don't have a external DAC here but I can easily bring one home and give it a whirl. I have the Cambridge Dac magic new and old , Peachtree , Bryston , Audioengine and maybe a few others I'll have to check our stock.Personally, I'd get a Mac laptop over the Mini. My reasoning is that I want the screen available and in a small of a footprint as possible. As for output, I avoid HDMI like the plague, I've heard too many nightmare stories about proper synching and have tried to help solve such on two occasions. Though I wish Firewire had caught on as a mainstream digital input on DAC's, USB works just fine.
The Dragonfly is nice intro DAC, I'd also consider the Audioengine D1. If you desire some tube sound the Grant Fidelity DAC11 is a good bargain.
I have a Pioneer Elite 60 inch Kuro that I will use for video on the Mac Mini. I plan on using HDMI to the theater rig and the Audioquest DAC for the 2 channel setup.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Iphone will be my remote.EndersShadow wrote: »I think Mantis will be using something like a tablet or an iPhone as his remote/display so the screen doesnt matter.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
I'm pretty sure there is software that will allow you to rip them exactly as they are. I also believe you can repurchase digital copies of them in their native formats online. Maybe HDTracks? I gotta find out from my guy as he's been doing this for years now.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on the external DAC vs using the internal. Most of the jobs I do we use a external DAC and it always sounds better then internal.
Yeah, if you find a program out there that isnt too expensive let me know. I know HDTracks had some supply issues where the music that was supposed to be high bitrate high rez was not that in truth and it was the labels problems.
I would rather find the stuff I want and buy the disc, rip it and then if I want to resell it to re-coup some of the cost.
I will let you know when I get some time to test out the HDMI out of the computer v the NFB-5 DAC via analog. Want to borrow some better IC's first (right now I am running really really cheap stuff) to really give it a fair shake."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
Mantis, it's not about sound quality of the HDMI but the synching that is the pain. Now that you're running the Mini Mac thru the TV
It makes perfect sense to chose that option. Enjoy!Review Site_ (((AudioPursuit)))
Founder/Publisher Affordable$$Audio 2006-13.
Former Staff Member TONEAudio
2 Ch. System
Amplifiers: Parasound Halo P6 pre, Vista Audio i34, Peachtree amp500, Adcom GFP-565 GFA-535ii, 545ii, 555ii
Digital: SimAudio HAD230 DAC, iMac 20in/Amarra,
Speakers: Paradigm Performa F75, Magnepan .7, Totem Model 1's, ACI Emerald XL, Celestion Si Stands. Totem Dreamcatcher sub
Analog: Technics SL-J2 w/Pickering 3000D, SimAudio LP5.3 phono pre
Cable/Wires: Cardas, AudioArt, Shunyata Venom 3 -
Personally, I'd get a Mac laptop over the Mini. My reasoning is that I want the screen available and in a small of a footprint as possible. As for output, I avoid HDMI like the plague, I've heard too many nightmare stories about proper synching and have tried to help solve such on two occasions. Though I wish Firewire had caught on as a mainstream digital input on DAC's, USB works just fine.
First, A mac mini and monitor is a far smaller footprint than any mac laptop.
Second, what are these "nightmare" stories? Like, "I turned on my blu-ray player and the handshake didn't go through!" *shriek!!!!!* HDMI has been proven to be quite reliable when implemented well.design is where science and art break even. -
Mantis, it's not about sound quality of the HDMI but the synching that is the pain.
Can you speak a bit more about what your talking about here? Are you talking about HDMI via a CD player/transport, a game console, ect? I am just trying to understand where that might be an issue."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
EndersShadow wrote: »Can you speak a bit more about what your talking about here? Are you talking about HDMI via a CD player/transport, a game console, ect? I am just trying to understand where that might be an issue.
Here is what I have seen: Due to the nature of the HDMI signal, it requires both the signal and receiver to sync properly in order for the audio to be processed. In my experience with HT receivers this can become an issue. That is why I prefer USB as a preferred output choice.Review Site_ (((AudioPursuit)))
Founder/Publisher Affordable$$Audio 2006-13.
Former Staff Member TONEAudio
2 Ch. System
Amplifiers: Parasound Halo P6 pre, Vista Audio i34, Peachtree amp500, Adcom GFP-565 GFA-535ii, 545ii, 555ii
Digital: SimAudio HAD230 DAC, iMac 20in/Amarra,
Speakers: Paradigm Performa F75, Magnepan .7, Totem Model 1's, ACI Emerald XL, Celestion Si Stands. Totem Dreamcatcher sub
Analog: Technics SL-J2 w/Pickering 3000D, SimAudio LP5.3 phono pre
Cable/Wires: Cardas, AudioArt, Shunyata Venom 3 -
Here is what I have seen: Due to the nature of the HDMI signal, it requires both the signal and receiver to sync properly in order for the audio to be processed. In my experience with HT receivers this can become an issue.
Do you have examples of specific source and AVR matches that have had this issue, and how did you measure/diagnose/discover this?That is why I prefer USB as a preferred output choice.
So you would choose to use a USB DAC to remove HDMI jitter/syncing issues and then use what specific output from the USB DAC to get it to a AVR (optical, coaxial, RCA, ect). I would assume RCA out as the other digital outs could still have jitter issues IIRC.
My post is not meant to be argumentative, just trying to understand the specifics of what your talking about."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
I have read multiple times over the last few years that Apple TV has poor sound quality. There isn't anything to do with Apple Lossless, it is an Apple TV issue. These two links give some background.
http://www.appledystopia.com/bad-apple/apple-tv-poor-audio-quality/
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1419448/apple-tv-sound-quality-blind-tests
The issue with upconversion in the AppleTV is not one that you can do anything about. I generally use my airport express for music listening as a result.
Also, with using the analog outs, I believe that the AppleTvs and Airport Expresses are a few dBs below normal CD player output, so you would need to do careful level matching before comparing them to a CD player. (Not that you should not do careful level matching in every comparison.) I have not used the analog out of either, so I could not comment on the quality of them. I know when Stereophile looked at the Airport Express they found the jitter for the digital outs was acceptable, but the analog out had higher than acceptable jitter in the circuit. -
Iphone will be my remote.
I know you dig the Iphone as a remote, but trust me, that small screen will wear on ya. Tablets work wonders and cheapo tablets used at around 100 bucks make great wireless remotes. Of course unless you go balls out for an Ipad 3 or similiar, thats even better. Give it a shot though, sometimes just experiencing these things is better than what any of us have to say.
Also, your choice on the Audioquest dac to start out with is OK, but again, over time you may lust for more from it. Then seek out a dac from the big boys like Rega, W4S, Bryston, Musical Fidelity, Benchmark, Music Hall, Burson, etc. if you want to take it beyond cd quality sound.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Enders:
You're not being argumentative at all. Maybe I'm not being as clear as I should be. I would avoid using the HDMI out for ANY type of audio-only listening, and would instead go with USB from the Mac Mini to the DAC. I wish I could recall the brands of AVR as I have helped many families from my parish school setup systems (usually in return for a 6 pk of Fat Tire) so it is a bit of a blur.
I would respectfully disagree with Tony, based on my experience using the iPhone with the remote app i find it a perfectly worthy solution based upon my listening habits.Review Site_ (((AudioPursuit)))
Founder/Publisher Affordable$$Audio 2006-13.
Former Staff Member TONEAudio
2 Ch. System
Amplifiers: Parasound Halo P6 pre, Vista Audio i34, Peachtree amp500, Adcom GFP-565 GFA-535ii, 545ii, 555ii
Digital: SimAudio HAD230 DAC, iMac 20in/Amarra,
Speakers: Paradigm Performa F75, Magnepan .7, Totem Model 1's, ACI Emerald XL, Celestion Si Stands. Totem Dreamcatcher sub
Analog: Technics SL-J2 w/Pickering 3000D, SimAudio LP5.3 phono pre
Cable/Wires: Cardas, AudioArt, Shunyata Venom 3 -
markmarc, I'm still confused on the HDMI situation. There isn't a DAC that I am aware of that accepts HDMI. I2S is related, but is not the same thing as HDMI 1.2, 1.3,etc. Additionally, I2S which acts as HDMI is preferred for PS Audio's Perfect Wave gear, and to connect the wyred 4 sound server with their w4s dac.
I'm with you on using asynchronous USB out of the Mac Mini and into the DAC, but it sounds like for different reasons than you are espousing.
I am also with you on the the iphone making for a great remote. I find anything larger cumbersome and wholly unnecessary. Perhaps I could see the benefit of a larger screen after a couple more decades of life, but at this time the iphone is perfect and the epitome of convenience as I have it on me at all times anyways.design is where science and art break even. -
Only using the HDMI into the theater gear for both Audio and video. For 2 channel I'm gonna use the USB out.Mantis, it's not about sound quality of the HDMI but the synching that is the pain. Now that you're running the Mini Mac thru the TV
It makes perfect sense to chose that option. Enjoy!Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
I have. Apple Tv VIA HDMI had some Issues with Integra receivers and pre's before the Firware updates. Samsung Blu ray players worked , then failed over HDMI. LG Players worked then failed over HDMI. Some cables boxes by Motorola has Issues with some receivers not sync'ing. I could go on and on and on about Issues with HDMI. HDMI IMO sucks balls and I love it in the same breath. It's been a double edge sword in my world. It's extremely difficult to trouble shoot as it works then fails then works and then fails and then won't work until you do a full power cycle . You had to cross your fingers and pray it would stay working.EndersShadow wrote: »Do you have examples of specific source and AVR matches that have had this issue, and how did you measure/diagnose/discover this?
So you would choose to use a USB DAC to remove HDMI jitter/syncing issues and then use what specific output from the USB DAC to get it to a AVR (optical, coaxial, RCA, ect). I would assume RCA out as the other digital outs could still have jitter issues IIRC.
My post is not meant to be argumentative, just trying to understand the specifics of what your talking about.
Actually SPDIF has very low jitter issues compared to HDMI in theory. But I have not experienced any issues with audio playback over HDMI. Most external DAC's don't have HDMI on them so most of the time you use HDMI , you have to use the internal DAC's of your pre or receiver. USB is supposed to be an excellent connection when sending digital info to a DAC for music playback.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
For what I understand about ther Apple Tv output is that it's locked into 48. So if you have 44.1 material it gets converted to 48. That sucks IMO as it's another conversion that takes place. I'd rather it just pass what it is. In Itunes you import your music in 44.1 , why the hell it is 48 out? Well that has everything to do with video out. But it's designed to run your Itunes music. I think Apple screwed up when designing the Apple Tv's in this regard. I'd rather pay more for the device and have it work as it should then make a cheaper product and it not perform exactly correct.The issue with upconversion in the AppleTV is not one that you can do anything about. I generally use my airport express for music listening as a result.
Also, with using the analog outs, I believe that the AppleTvs and Airport Expresses are a few dBs below normal CD player output, so you would need to do careful level matching before comparing them to a CD player. (Not that you should not do careful level matching in every comparison.) I have not used the analog out of either, so I could not comment on the quality of them. I know when Stereophile looked at the Airport Express they found the jitter for the digital outs was acceptable, but the analog out had higher than acceptable jitter in the circuit.
To me it sounds compressed when you compare it to the original cd you ripped from. It loses the organic richness of most music. it's not terrible or anything , it's just not as good as it's supposed to be. That sucks.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
I might pick up a iPad 4 or whatever they are going to call the new new iPad with the new connection on it and a faster processor. For now the iPhone does the job just fine. My eyes are still good so the small screen isn't an issue.I know you dig the Iphone as a remote, but trust me, that small screen will wear on ya. Tablets work wonders and cheapo tablets used at around 100 bucks make great wireless remotes. Of course unless you go balls out for an Ipad 3 or similiar, thats even better. Give it a shot though, sometimes just experiencing these things is better than what any of us have to say.
Also, your choice on the Audioquest dac to start out with is OK, but again, over time you may lust for more from it. Then seek out a dac from the big boys like Rega, W4S, Bryston, Musical Fidelity, Benchmark, Music Hall, Burson, etc. if you want to take it beyond cd quality sound.
I'm not even sure if I'm going to use the Dragon fly DAC , I'm gonna listen to it against all of our DAC's and if it sucks compared , I'll get the better DAC. Why go this far only to screw it up with a inferior DAC. But it gets very good reviews and shockingly good for its price. I like it as it's simple. Thats whats really attractive not to mention the Sabre DAC's inside.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
I'm not out on HDMI as a music only connection. I have done countless systems with HDMI and never once heard issues with audio or poor at that. I always use music I know very well for testing and it has never let me down. Now for a music server , it's all about a good quality DAC and if the DAC external sounds better then the internal DAC in the pre or receiver , then I would go with the ladder. I read a lot of these Audiophile things , I also have one at out store who is crazy about every little thing in his system and avoids any potential pitfalls but if HDMI is that bad , I would assume watching movies , concerts would not sound as good as they could.Enders:
You're not being argumentative at all. Maybe I'm not being as clear as I should be. I would avoid using the HDMI out for ANY type of audio-only listening, and would instead go with USB from the Mac Mini to the DAC. I wish I could recall the brands of AVR as I have helped many families from my parish school setup systems (usually in return for a 6 pk of Fat Tire) so it is a bit of a blur.
I would respectfully disagree with Tony, based on my experience using the iPhone with the remote app i find it a perfectly worthy solution based upon my listening habits.
It's a very long winded conversation about HDMI , internal and external DAC use , 2 channel , multichannel audio and how to get it all done.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
I think what it comes down to is the DAC inside or outside for performance. If your preamp has a very good internal DAC , then I don't see any reason seeking out a external DAC for little or no gain. I also haven't experienced any performance issues with any HDMI connection when it works. I've seen plenty fail but when they work , they work well. using quality HDMI cables I feel is a smart investment for at least one piece of the chain is non factor when something goes wrong. I've seen plenty of cheap HDMI cables fail . Usually in my world once a cable works , it works forever basically. they are usually broken out of the box. Extremely rare to see a cable fail over time. HDMI is an exception to that rule.markmarc, I'm still confused on the HDMI situation. There isn't a DAC that I am aware of that accepts HDMI. I2S is related, but is not the same thing as HDMI 1.2, 1.3,etc. Additionally, I2S which acts as HDMI is preferred for PS Audio's Perfect Wave gear, and to connect the wyred 4 sound server with their w4s dac.
I'm with you on using asynchronous USB out of the Mac Mini and into the DAC, but it sounds like for different reasons than you are espousing.
I am also with you on the the iphone making for a great remote. I find anything larger cumbersome and wholly unnecessary. Perhaps I could see the benefit of a larger screen after a couple more decades of life, but at this time the iphone is perfect and the epitome of convenience as I have it on me at all times anyways.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
