Why doesn't mainstream America know what music reproduction is actually capable of?

treitz3

oldmodman wrote: »

Do you have a wife or girlfriend? Have you ever tried to keep both an entire room full of gigantic audio gear, cables snaking behind the equipment rack AND the woman? Very difficult thing to accomplish. Most guys just give up on one or the other.

Hello, oldmodman and thanks for your feedback. This certainly has much to do with things. Thing is, one doesn't need a room full of gear to enjoy what a modest and smaller system can do. With a couple of nice bookies paired with a sub or two, a small integrated, well recorded source material and a universal or even a well designed and implemented computer based music server can achieve some really great results. Of course it's not a pair of Wilson Alexandria's supplemented with 4 subs, monoblocks that take 4 men to lift each one, a roomful of cables, TT's, RTR's and other dedicated media playback systems. Who said it had to be? Great sound doesn't necessarily have to cost one an arm and a leg either. Many a thread can be found on this forum and others highlighting great sounding setups for the budget minded.

CoolJazz wrote: »

For those more familiar with a few audiophile labels, or those of us that musically can reach back far enough, can identify with how different that naturally mic'ed, recorded live music can sound! It's not a IN YOUR FACE kind of sound. How can you expect people to know a stereo image when everything they can identify with musically has been assembled with twists of panpots and natural imaging just CAN'T exist on any more as a result!

So sure it's a surprise to many! They've never heard it and usually haven't ever sat and listened to any single instrument played live 10 feet in front of them. So no connection to natural sound (that they've ever thought about) exists to most!

Thanks, Mark. That's a good reason as to why and so is Mr. Dennis Gardner's post. Having to Google everything he mentioned proved that point quite well.

Tom

cnh

Dennis Gardner wrote: »

I think that the appreciation for music reproduction falls into the same category as other niches in life. Asking someone about the latest SACD or FIM is like asking how many of us actually know the difference between a Screaming Eagle Cab vs. a Penfold Grange Hermitage , a Ruy Lopez vs. a Guioco piano, a mashie vs a niblick and when to use either, an Audemars Piguet Panda Strap vs. a Breitling Wind Rider. (personally I use my iPhone), a Hoffmeister kink vs. a Keen edge, Delphinus compared to Ophiuchus, Iranian sevruga vs. Russian Prime Osetra.....you could go on and on about niche items that the mainstream have little use for in their everyday lives, even though those that appreciate these finer things in life could never understand how we live without at least knowing what they are.

If you had to Google any of these you aren't alone, you are just part of the mainstream.

I guess the sad part of this is that many of us don't even know what a hemisemidemiquaver is even though we hear one on nearly every song we so lovingly go on and on about......and we say we are well versed in music.:cheesygrin:

Different strokes.........

Oh come now. Any British school boy who started Greek and Latin at 6 or 7 years of age and was a member of the aristocracy would know all this. He could derive the meanings from simply guessing at the Greek and Latin roots in most of the above. Some would just call that being "educated" (and possibly privileged as well). Do you mean to imply that our members are ill-educated? I think not. Look at the Latin prowess of mhardy, as for me, I know the Greek. Also, didn't they tell you in school that life was a never ending journey in striving for excellence in everything. The classical ideal, the liberal arts education, the Renaissance man...? lol

Of course I'm just pulling your leg? And I "do" agree with treitz3, this is "not" about putting together some fabulously costly elite system, but something that is "listenable". That "most" people would say, hey that sounds good! One has only to look at whom Polk is "targeting" with its products/prices to demonstrate that.

Let me just end by quoting Dan's (mantis) mantra:

"My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time."

cnh

Dennis Gardner

My point was simply to illustrate that we talk about musical nuances as something anyone should recognize, when few of us would recognize my list as being simply items we hear of all the time just not in specific terms. Wine, chess, golf, watches, cars, stars, and caviar along with music appreciation are some of the finer things in this life and alot of us share experiences with these items, just not at a level high enough to know all the nuances of the subject. If we spent as much time on those items as we do music enjoyment, we would all be Renaissance Men.......:biggrin:

tonyb

Dennis Gardner wrote: »

...... we would all be Renaissance Men.......:biggrin:

That wouldn't be so bad either.

I agree with ya, but also consider where the main stream shop for their consumer electronics. Bestbuy, Apple, Walmart.....nothing screams HI-FI like those places. It's no wonder most don't know whats out there and available to them. Sure we have the internet these days but again, does the main stream use it for hi-fi ? I think not.

swb502

I know for me my parents had some 'hi-fi' by late 70s standard but they went away when I was fairly young, the gaint speakers, the TT all of it went away, and they got a 5 disc CD player and did that CD mail order thing, but it was sort of killed by that, or the fact there we're 3 kids in the house. Anyways music more or less feel to the way side so my generation sort of went away from that.

Post college when I got into a few things with tubes because the mechanics of them we're interesting, a TT and some other stuff it was all fresh territory. I like classical, classic rock, oprea, etc, all things that are good to do on a 'better' system when I had some money from the Air Force to spend.

And that was after I worked on my home theater and found out what better speakers could do. Going from speakers the size of beer cans in one of those 5.1 systems from Sears, to a full on polk system.

My peers where listening to mostly Rap, which you just need a big sub, and speakers that make noise. Why pay for fancy speakers and such when you don't need them to get the same effect, or even if you play that music though either hi-fi or low-fi its going to be the same.

madmax

Mono, the final frontier!

tonyb

A small blast from my own past.

As a youngster, many couldn't afford a TV, nor wanted one. Many including my grandparents spent their time infront of what they were acustomed to....a big tubed radio console. It wasn't until years later they ventured into the world of television. Now this radio thing, I dug it. Back then it was probably equal to an audio book today only the tubed tuner and deep male voices really brought a story to life. Grandma knits, grandpa reading the paper, me on the floor playing with toy cars and G.I. Joes, while that tube sound was so relaxing, comforting. Aside from stories over the radio, it was also my first introduction into classical music which now that I think about it, was my first introduction into any music at all.

Certain life experiences shape who we are, thats no secret, but if you think about it the small insignificant experiences from your youth play an even bigger role as you get older. Music, and how we listened to it, on what we listened, stays with you for a lifetime.

inspiredsports

Just being here (in an audio forum) is a pretty good clue that we are not "Mainstream America" when it comes to audio reproduction.

"Mainstream" by definition can be assumed to mean "Average", and that's a solid "C" in my book.

I think most of us here aspire to B+'s or higher.

Drenis

As Jim Morrison will tell you... People are strange!

My real hi-fi experience only came when I put my first 2-channel system together a few months ago. I realized that I had wasted almost 20+ years of thinking what I heard growing up was hi-fi.

Now I'm hooked. Can probably never go back to a boring system regardless what it might be.

treitz3

Drenis wrote: »

My real hi-fi experience only came when I put my first 2-channel system together a few months ago. I realized that I had wasted almost 20+ years of thinking what I heard growing up was hi-fi.

Hello, Drenis and thank you for your honesty. Please allow me to be honest as well, if you will. For close to two decades, I thought my gear was High Fidelity much like you and mainstream America. In 2004, two speakers did in my house what I never knew existed. 2 years later, I found what a stereo system could actually do and I was floored. Been hooked ever since "again", even thought I was hooked before. This time, with a new outlook of what reproduction could actually offer. This is the exact point of the thread.

No longer was it just two speakers producing noise to the left and to the right.

Tom

treitz3

Micheal Fremer wrote:

Mainstream media...they just neglect this subject.....I put a record on that I haven't played in years, it is so much pleasure....It's one of the pleasures in life. The next most pleasurable thing is to bring someone down who has never heard a good stereo who thinks they know what music sounds like recorded.....and you put it on and the first thing they go is, "My God", are those the speakers [as they point to the amplifier] because the sound is coming from the stage in the middle...but the sound is not coming from them.

Continued...

That's the whole idea, my friend. The speakers aren't supposed to be heard. They are supposed to just produce this field in front of you.

Many folks here on this forum and abroad talk of a sound stage, imaging and things being beyond the speakers. Many of us here know about such things from experience. That said, many of us still [even here on this forum and others] do not know what a stereo system can actually do. They read diatribe and may consider it as fact or they could even discount it. That's up to them. Thing is, they may hear a reflection off of a wall or object that offers the illusion of what stereo can offer. This is not stereo. Not even close. Those who know what a system can actually do, try to stop this exact thing from happening in the first place but mainstream consumers still think that this is stereo and what it can actually do.

How can we make more folks experience what stereo can actually do and why does mainstream media ignore this subject? Music is the beautiful medicine that connects those who do not speak. It heals those in pain and offers a soothing break from the realities in life to others. For some, music can be an identity, a drug, entertainment, relaxation, excitement, inspirational or a living. My question is, if music affects so many folks from all around the globe and is such a major influence on life and overall feelings or happiness...

Why would the media neglect what could be?

Tom

swb502

Tom,

I don?t think its neglect in anyway, it?s about the ability for a large firm to make money at it. Meaning allot of units, fairly cheaply, I think the price point for mainstream America is somewhere between 750-500 bucks given what people will pay for other luxury items like iPads. What is the minimum cost to get a ?actual? stereo system into some ones house? Also this needs to be done with effectively no tweaking other then, ?set the stuff down here and it works?. Lastly you have to be able to effectively relay the effect without people hearing it in person, to get them into a store or buy it off the net. This is all assuming there are ample people out there who will sit down and just listen. I?m not really sure about that one.

To make money in the US you need to pump out a product that requires just about no work to use, and at a price point, most people could afford it. True stereo doesn?t seem to fall into either of those, the only time I think I experienced imagining is when I was at a brick and motor audio shop and was sitting in front of 50k in equipment, I was cringing at the $20 price tag on the shield sub cable (I need because I was picking up a hum from the wall), 50k might as well have been a billion sort of deal. I had just spent I think it was $2500 setting up my home theater and that was big money for me (still is), real stereo is just something that is almost unobtainable.

Point being I don?t think its neglect, I think it? that you can?t really make ?big? money at it right now. Bose is about the closest thing going.

bthogan

Did anyone mention .mp3s yet?

bthogan

treitz3 wrote: »

Why would the media neglect what could be?

Because the media get a lot of money from people who sell mp3s, and not a lot of money (comparatively) from people who make really good amplifiers.

Yeah, it's a drag. Since I started using separates, I've been trying to proselytize folks about the astounding quality-of-life improvement that I've experienced. Not a lot of interest.

And I mean that (about quality-of-life). As I've told some people, I'd rather sound crazy than fail to communicate how extraordinarily enjoyable listening has become for me since I spent a little bit of money on stuff.

cnh

Here's what I considered a related question that helps put this a little more in perspective. Watch the "tube"? OK, you've seen ads for BMWs, Mercedes, Absolut Vodka, etc?

When is the last time you've seen an ad about speakers on TV? Anyone? OK, maybe there are some Bose Radio, or Bose noise cancelling HP ads. But other than that? What?

I can't remember anything, not ONE thing! Is there NO market for advertising? How about one for an AMP? lol You want to make something mainstream, wouldn't you advertise in a number of "media markets" including television and radio?

cnh

Oldfatdogs

When is the last time you've seen an ad about speakers on TV? Anyone? OK, maybe there are some Bose Radio, or Bose noise cancelling HP ads. But other than that? What?

If I recall,Jennifer Lopez did a Harman Kardon add on the t.v. not too long ago.But other than that nada.

Tony M

Our society has forced, yes forced the newer generation to think compact and mobile. Afordability is part of the picture also. Most younger people can't afford a gas guzzling truck ( to move big systems and furniture) and a compact car that barely holds 2 people for their transportation. Apartment living negates big stereo system listening at concert levels for the most part.

So with just these few theories, Is there any wonder why musical artists that are mainstream megastars, make their recordings mainly for head phone listening or the ear buds. I agree the sound is ok and know the difference between a pretty good system and earbud listening sessions.

Maybe when the younger mainstream listeners get good income coming in later in life, they will help our hobby grow again in all sectors. But compact is going to win out and the music I dissaprove of now, is just like my parents hating Pink Floyd. We're different and we all have different tastes. I just don't like mainstream music either but look at my age. I like most musical genres but some I hate, millions love the style I hate....wierd to me but that's what moves them.

I'm like Cathy, There's nothing we will ever be able to do about it so I just enjoy my tastes when I put in a CD or radio station. Let the millions enjoy their what I think is crap musical styles and live in balance. As long as both get moved by music or sound, that's what matters most. Music or sound is the soul of life.

seabeerob213

i guess i lucked out my gf loves loud music, she listens to this crap, but atleast she is happy about my wires and equiptment, now that she is starting to hear the difference, and i dont have anything that nice yet, she was sold after i got the psw 110, and today i will hook up my rti4's and the sony's will go into service as a tv stand so i can see my tv over the csi3, and fyi most of the good artists in any genre these days use some sort of audio correction software wheter on instrument sounds or vocals to make it uniform for radio/studio recordings, do they all make there voices different and shaky like theyre singing into a box fan? no but they do clean it up for uniformity, its part of what makes it so awesome to go to a concert, because you get to hear it how it was meant to be, but the studio versions are usually pretty rad too,

PubFiction

There are alot of reasons main stream does not appreciate good sound, but lets get to the most important one, its very expensive. Look at any industry America or any other country really brought to the mainstream and you will find almost always there are exactly 2 things that made this happen, 1 and the most important was the price came down, down so far that anyone who wanted it could obtain it without much problem. 2 Advertising, basically someone had to take a product and usually this was not the one that invented the product and see a vision and smack it in the face of everyone and tell them what they are missing. Honest hard working people, are not the people for these jobs. Because honest people would tell you that you are getting a cheap product not a good product and well honest people do not exist in advertising (sorry if you are in that field).

Now what is the most hated name in audio amoung the audiophiles, I will argue bose, and what is the most widely known name in audio among the masses? Once again I will argue bose. So when people just think they might want something nice the beeline strait to bose and the experience is both expensive and not as good. They experience bose many places they go and associate that with expensive music, then say well my cheapo system is good enough.

But the cool thing is, bose, dre, and the like make so much money that they can afford to advertise so much that they can literally crowd out any competition. So advertising is really critical but lower volume companies like many here we discuss and ones who give you better value just dont have the money to put on super bowl commercials etc...In fact when was the last time you saw a polk or klipsch commercial on TV? I have never seen either in my life but I have seen thousands of bose commercials. And polk and klipsch are probably the biggest players, that does not even touch on higher end stufff or more niche.

And that all completely leaves out the fact that a ton of people have just never experienced good sound at all. I took a bunch of people I work with and brought in some of my headphones, I was trying to convince them that they should not waste money on various brands they are familiar with alot really were surprised at how much more they heard from a $25 pair of monoprice headphones. I dont have any super nice headphones but I had some audio technicas and sennhiesser. Good thing is after that most of them were sold on the monoprice headphones. I figure that is better than you know having them go buy another set of apple buds.

The main reason everyone uses mp3 players with cheap buds is because its one device for a cheap price that goes everywhere. And that cost value is always going to make it the dominant listening environment. Many of you touched on music as teens, this is very true psychologist talk about it all the time, this is when you develop your taste for music. But at the same time you are social and most of you music is heard in you car, at concerts, in places where their is tons of ambient noise, how hard it is to appreciate the fine details of music with cars whizzing by. So the best thing anyone can do is try to have good quality audio their for their kids. Because at that age you usually cannot afford it yourself.

Msabot1

Some of the problem,the gear they listen to it on, Most of the problem is this gen have ears of pure Bolivian Tin,can't distinguish between major and minor keys! There is some very good music being made out there,you just have to get through the layers of commercial garbage to get to it! Just look how a majority of recordings are made today and by whom! Can anyone say SOUND STUDIO anymore?

BigDaveyL

EndersShadow wrote: »

For instance Adele has a GREAT CD. But its compressed to hell so you dont get those high and low points.....

It's a shame, too.

tonyb

Marketing and changes in society. We live in an increasingly mobile society, the Ipod's popularity proved that one. Now you can take your music on your phone and I even saw something that said 5.1 music was coming to mobile devices. Still, is that mobile section of the population concerned over quality sound ? Probably not. I'll bet as people get older and they spend more time at home, then the need for better sound enters their brain. When your younger, too many things to pull your wallet in all sorts of directions other than quality audio.

On another note, it's easy to say why doesn't Polk do this or do that. Keep in mind they like many other companies do marketing research to pinpoint their targeted segments. Polk over the years has done an excellant job of keeping their speakers within certain price points while delivering quality sound. Sure, they can always improve, and they do, but still have to keep their products within certain price points that marketing research dictates. Everything is relative when you need to sell alot of product to a wider segment of the population.

Yet another is HT. When HT hit the streets, it didn't do 2 channel any favors. Then we have austhetics. Most women don't want speakers the size of Godzilla so you make compromises. IMHO anyway, this comes full circle to age. Younger listeners tend to be more mobile, have smaller listening area's as in smaller homes, family and kids stuff taking up room, and less disposable income. Older listeners tend to have that extra room for a seperate 2 channel rig, have more disposable income, and their kids have grown and gone. Of course this isn't written in stone and there are plenty of exceptions, but generaly speaking on the age thing. Everyones circumstances differ.

cfrizz

Nice summary Tony and right on the money.

vinyladdict

I am new here but I have been listening to a good stereo setup since the 70's and there is nothing like a good setup . Currently have a lower end Onkyo "stereo" receiver , yup no 5.1 for this guy . Run my vinyl on a 80's era Technics direct drive TT , wonderful setup . I don't have $1000 speakers but they are good speakers with a 15 inch woofer and 8 inch poly mids and horn tweeters. There is nothing like sitting between your favorite speakers and you stick on something like America's first album where you can hear every note of the guys hitting on their acoustic guitars in crystal clear sound. Have taken care of all my vinyl over the years and most is still in pretty good shape and there is nothing like vinyl with little to no scratches in it . I'm not saying cd's are bad in fact some cd's have been recorded correctly but some sound like real crap with missing high end and muddled mids. The same was true of vinyl in the early years when producers like ABC/ Dunhill made the worst sounding vinyl. I will always be a "stereo" guy . If you want the ultimate imaging experience then your other investment will be a good pair of over the ear headphones and sit down and relax and enjoy . Sat down last night and stuck on my Alan Parsons I Robot vinyl album , talk about imaging !! What an eargasm!!!