Why doesn't mainstream America know what music reproduction is actually capable of?

treitz3
treitz3 Posts: 19,029
edited December 2012 in 2 Channel Audio
What are your thoughts? Here's a clip on You-tube of Micheal Fremer. Listen to the second part. [36 seconds and on to 1:42]

[video=youtube_share;6JxxJb0yZ9U]http://youtu.be/6JxxJb0yZ9U[/video]

Please disregard the rest of the video for this discussion. 2 channel folks need only respond. Hopefully, this will enlighten folks who think reproduced music just comes "from two speakers". The fact is, many on this board have passed this aspect of stereo reproduction a long time ago.

Tom
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
Post edited by treitz3 on
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Comments

  • naturallight
    naturallight Posts: 689
    edited October 2012
    I'm not sure what your point is here...Just to say that main stream America is brain dead on music??

    Of course it is..man just take a listen to the junk thats out there.....they like Lady Ga Ga..MP3 junk played on there ipod thru ear buds..or how ever they listen to this crap.



    There is mostly complete crap music..that is feed to these people thru MP3 junk so they can buy it for 99 cents.



    Whats your point?? Like you can make them listen to a "good" stereo system..and there supposed to all rise up and say..hell we have been duped..something can sound good...LMAO



    90% of these people would not know good sound from bad..and could really care less..if they can get crap music on there ipod's there happy......
  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,590
    edited October 2012
    Something to consider that I have mentioned before is this: Dynamic range compression.

    Most NEW music nowadays is screwed regardless of what format you get it on: CD, Vinyl, ect due to being compressed before its even put into a format. As such the transients are simply not as good. Thats why you dont see folks looking for Gaga on CD..... yes it sounds better in FLAC, but you cant get the dynamic range back because its never there.

    I still go out of my way to get CD's and rip them to FLAC (yes I know Tom your not a fan of FLAC or digital at all), but its not always enough.

    For instance Adele has a GREAT CD. But its compressed to hell so you dont get those high and low points.....

    So part of it is yes its being listened to on iPods, with MP3's or through horribly placed speakers, but part of it is that most mainstream music is produced to meet those needs so the true audiophiles are left with music thats meant to sound great through an iPhone with Beats By Dre, not on a high-fi system.

    This isnt to say there are not exceptions to the rule, there always are and some genre's tend to have less of this, for instance more instrumental music like Jazz, blue's, ect.
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  • Mon40CSMM10
    Mon40CSMM10 Posts: 161
    edited October 2012
    The fact remains, as has always been, that even the most dynamic range recording sounds "weak" if it is significantly softer than what ever was previously being listened to, and the volume has to be adjusted up just for that recording.

    The point is to record as loud as possible without hitting the clipping point. If it clips, it's going to be an audible click in digitial. When I do my own experimenting and not released recordings, I always make sure the instruments are as loud as possible and the recording is just below clipping. But then again, I am experimenting with synth music, multiple layers, where ever layer needs to be heard over the other layer.

    While Lady Gaga is certainly not my favorite artist, the point of pop music has been missed: it has always been one single dynamic from the start of the song to the end of the song. That was true with vinyl 45s and LPs, that was true with cassettes, that is still true with CDs.

    Adele has been mentioned too, and I've heard one of her CDs. It didn't necessarily sound overly compressed to me, but the bass sounds were obviously brought up to match her vocal volume. Then again, Adele is pop music as far as radio play is concerned, so that is probably correct.

    But whatever the dynamics of the song, that is what the MP3 will end up sounding like with even more compression. Now, I disagree that 128 kbps MP3 is CD quality, since artifacts in cymbals and even some synthesized bass sounds can effortlessly be heard. But at bitrates of 160 kpbs, 256 kbps, and especially 320 kbps, MP3 tends to sound very much like the recording from the original CD media.
  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    edited October 2012
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Please disregard the rest of the video for this discussion. 2 channel folks need only respond. Hopefully, this will enlighten folks who think reproduced music just comes "from two speakers".

    A good multi-channel system, along with good recordings, is how music is accurately reproduced. The only time live music is in "stereo" is if it is played in a flat, open field with no hills, trees, buildings, etc. around to reflect sound. Music played indoors is the combination of direct and reflected sound, which requires more that two speakers to accurately reproduce. However, stereo is much easier and convenient to record and playback at home.
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  • naturallight
    naturallight Posts: 689
    edited October 2012
    Well i could care less about "todays" music or top 40 junk..most of it is so bad i would not even bother to listen to it.



    What "Lady GaGa" dose...is a complete joke. There are no real musicians playing on there, for the most part. If thats her real voice..i'd be amazed, as it's run thru so much junk. Weather it's compressed to the max..really who cares..it's junk to begin with..so compressing the crap out of it, makes no difference.



    But thats what 80% of America buys..useless, compressed music, that they can put on an Ipod..thats about it.

    If you like this type of stuff..rock on. To me, most of these people are talentless hacks, with computer generated music...but thats just me.
  • naturallight
    naturallight Posts: 689
    edited October 2012
    What I "thinK" the guy was trying to say, was....wake up. Put your Ipods to the side. Try and listen to a "good" stereo system, maybe with Vinyl that has NOT had the music compressed to crap, and hopefully a band that can "really" play the music, not computer crap.
    That may be reaching for it..but thats what i got out of it.
  • oldmodman
    oldmodman Posts: 740
    edited October 2012
    Do you have a wife or girlfriend?

    Have you ever tried to keep both an entire room full of gigantic audio gear, cables snaking behind the equipment rack AND the woman?

    Very difficult thing to accomplish. Most guys just give up on one or the other.
  • dudeinaroom
    dudeinaroom Posts: 3,609
    edited October 2012
    oldmodman wrote: »
    Do you have a wife or girlfriend?

    Have you ever tried to keep both an entire room full of gigantic audio gear, cables snaking behind the equipment rack AND the woman?

    Very difficult thing to accomplish. Most guys just give up on one or the other.

    Yes I have a wife, and she will even help with the tape measure when placing speakers. She can even make her way to the sweet spot, even fight me for it. She also has no problem with the wires associated with the HT system. She also appreciates the SDAs we got from her uncle. She loves the 7s that are in the surround position. If your significant other has a problem with your hobby/addiction then you picked the wrong one. My wife may not be a trophy, but she is my life long partner and friend. We can work through anything together. We talk about issues instead of fighting. As far as WAF is concerned, My wife accepts all my factors as I do hers.
  • gdb
    gdb Posts: 6,012
    edited October 2012
    Why doesn't someone ever come up with a succinct definition of just what exactly constitutes "main stream America" ? Kind of a nebulous term and concept, IMO.
  • dudeinaroom
    dudeinaroom Posts: 3,609
    edited October 2012
    Main Stream America: Any one person, or group of persons not belonging to the Polk Audio forums.
  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited October 2012
    Main Stream America: Any one person, or group of persons not belonging to the Polk Audio forums.

    Bingo! You guys tend to forget that you all fall on the extremists side of audio. The majority of us simply want to listen to tunes without making it a full time job or going into debt to do so.

    I can just as easily listen to music from my mp3 player as I can from my 5.2 system here at home, so long as I'm enjoying the music that I like to listen to I'm happy. I'm not about to just listen to classical/jazz, orwhatever because it supposedly sounds better. It's about ME listening to what I like not what others deem acceptable.

    Stop critiquing and start enjoying.
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited October 2012
    cfrizz wrote: »
    Stop critiquing and start enjoying.

    Hello, Cathy. That's kind of the point. While I will not discount that you and millions of citizens across this country enjoy listening to music [I know this to be true] on any playback system or medium, when you listen to a system that is capable of presenting multiple images across the sound stage to where the speakers disappear and the recorded performance is stunningly recreated? One can experience the music on a playback system instead of just enjoying it. The whole point of this diatribe is to point out that most of America doesn't even know about this aspect of music reproduction. I'm asking everybody's thoughts as to why.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • doctor r
    doctor r Posts: 837
    edited October 2012
    Recently had my niece's 22 year old boyfriend over to the house. I was listening to some music (classic rock) and it peaked his curiosity. I had him sit down in the sweat spot and listen and it was interesting to watch his face. He suddenly stood up and looked so bewildered saying "I can actually hear the instrument separation, but how does it make the sound in the center?" He was amazed at the soundstage and effect of a two speaker system presenting a three dimensional music experience. This from a young man who has ear buds in his ears most of the time I see him. He has actually been back for additional listening sessions and is trying to figure out a way to get a little "stereo" at home on his college budget. There might still be some hope. I believe the lack of exposure to alternatives in non compressed music and systems that are able to reproduce them well is the main failing.
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  • dudeinaroom
    dudeinaroom Posts: 3,609
    edited October 2012
    cfrizz wrote: »
    Bingo! You guys tend to forget that you all fall on the extremists side of audio. The majority of us simply want to listen to tunes without making it a full time job or going into debt to do so.

    I can just as easily listen to music from my mp3 player as I can from my 5.2 system here at home, so long as I'm enjoying the music that I like to listen to I'm happy. I'm not about to just listen to classical/jazz, orwhatever because it supposedly sounds better. It's about ME listening to what I like not what others deem acceptable.

    Stop critiquing and start enjoying.

    Well said!
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Hello, Cathy. That's kind of the point. While I will not discount that you and millions of citizens across this country enjoy listening to music [I know this to be true] on any playback system or medium, when you listen to a system that is capable of presenting multiple images across the sound stage to where the speakers disappear and the recorded performance is stunningly recreated? One can experience the music on a playback system instead of just enjoying it. The whole point of this diatribe is to point out that most of America doesn't even know about this aspect of music reproduction. I'm asking everybody's thoughts as to why.

    Tom

    The problem is there is not enough exposure for the younger generations, mine included (30 somethings). Also most people don't have the time anymore because they are trying to keep up with the latest digital device/cellphones, or just have to work all the time just to keep a roof over there head.
    doctor r wrote: »
    ...He suddenly stood up and looked so bewildered saying "I can actually hear the instrument separation, but how does it make the sound in the center?"...

    I know what you mean, I had a friend over once and he was in the sweet spot of the SDAs and he had to get up and put his ear in front front of the center channel just to make sure it was off, I'm pretty sure I saw the same look on his face as you did on that 22 year old.
  • gmjungbluth
    gmjungbluth Posts: 232
    edited October 2012
    I was most into music in my teen years (played in a promising local band, went to shows, loved my music and played it way too loud). Ever since then I've never felt the same strong emotional connection to my favorite music as back then. And funnily enough, the music I was loving never came to my ears over a hi-fi - most of the time it was a boom box, crummy car stereo, or maybe a low-end component system if I was lucky. It wasn't the fidelity of the recording that tugged at my emotions, it was the energy of the artist, jamming to a song with my friends, or feeling a part of a movement. All the stereos and speakers in the world (or in my basement) will never get me back to that feeling, try as I may.

    I read somewhere once that our brains form an emotional connection to the music we hear in our adolescent years, which is why we have such an emotional connection to that time (and why every successive generation doesn't 'understand' the music their kids are playing). I wonder for me whether my constant fiddling with components and speakers is just another way of living in the nostalgia for me. Or maybe not- ironically, a lot of the music I loved as a teenager doesn't sound that great through my hi-fi now!!
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  • dkr919
    dkr919 Posts: 379
    edited October 2012
    Main Stream America: Any one person, or group of persons not belonging to the Polk Audio forums.

    ipod.jpg
  • bikezappa
    bikezappa Posts: 2,463
    edited October 2012
    I was most into music in my teen years (played in a promising local band, went to shows, loved my music and played it way too loud). Ever since then I've never felt the same strong emotional connection to my favorite music as back then. And funnily enough, the music I was loving never came to my ears over a hi-fi - most of the time it was a boom box, crummy car stereo, or maybe a low-end component system if I was lucky. It wasn't the fidelity of the recording that tugged at my emotions, it was the energy of the artist, jamming to a song with my friends, or feeling a part of a movement. All the stereos and speakers in the world (or in my basement) will never get me back to that feeling, try as I may.

    I read somewhere once that our brains form an emotional connection to the music we hear in our adolescent years, which is why we have such an emotional connection to that time (and why every successive generation doesn't 'understand' the music their kids are playing). I wonder for me whether my constant fiddling with components and speakers is just another way of living in the nostalgia for me. Or maybe not- ironically, a lot of the music I loved as a teenager doesn't sound that great through my hi-fi now!!

    How true. We all want to go back to feelings from our youth.
  • bikezappa
    bikezappa Posts: 2,463
    edited October 2012
    Most people wouldn't know good music if it came up and bit them in the ****. Frank Zappa
  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited October 2012
    In regards to what is mainstream America I think treitz3 hit it when he said "most people". There is your definition. Because, in this case, the audiophile is in the "minority". Politically it's like Nixon's Silent Majority, the one that trounced McGovern in '72 (LANDSLIDE). Two years later, Dick was gone!

    I think we can safely say that when we enter a big box store like BB what we are seeing is mainstream American consumer product for the most part. And that's all too simple to "define" and also to take advantage of, etc.

    No mystery here.

    BTW, the greater your ability to "operationalize" the parameters of what you are investigating or talking about the LESS generalizable the results of your experiment, the less relevant it is. I used to see this all the time in the vaunted "rat" experiments of Psychologists when I briefly sojourned in that field. Some experiments were quite laughable, but methodologically "tight"!

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  • sucks2beme
    sucks2beme Posts: 5,601
    edited October 2012
    Mainstream users don't care that much. Loud is good. Cheap is also pretty good.
    Easy is great, thank you IPOD. Welcome to all hobbies. Only other audio fans care.
    Same with racing bikes. scrapbooking, etc.
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  • nwohlford
    nwohlford Posts: 700
    edited October 2012
    I think to say only people like me can appreciate music is falling into the authenticity hoax (see Andrew Potter's work). People can appreciate music on all levels, and for us, the hobby of reproducing music as "perfectly" as possible is part of the fun.

    I would compare this to the extreme foodies who would tend to think that food is not good unless it fits certain criteria. It would be absurd to say the rest of can not enjoy or appreciate food just because we are not as extreme as them. I would bet most of the people on here enjoy food that they can get from mainstream restaurants or brands at the market, and don't think they are missing out on anything by not going to the extremes that a true foodie would.
  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    edited October 2012
    I remember this same conversation in the 1970s. Some people like music, some people like music and like getting the best possible reproduction. As somebody mentioned above regarding the emotional connection to music, when I was younger during the late 60s I had no problem at all with the sound from an AM car radio blasting away. I don't even listen to car radio, or any radio, today.
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  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited October 2012
    I think more people than you realize DO know, but it isn't important enough to make it worth the time, or expense to reach this audio nirvana. There are a lot more important things to put ones time and money towards.
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  • dudeinaroom
    dudeinaroom Posts: 3,609
    edited October 2012
    cfrizz wrote: »
    I think more people than you realize DO know, but it isn't important enough to make it worth the time, or expense to reach this audio nirvana. There are a lot more important things to put ones time and money towards.

    Also well said.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited October 2012
    cfrizz wrote: »
    I think more people than you realize DO know......

    You sure about that? Just chat with someone, anyone whom you do not know just to strike up a conversation and ask them if they have heard the latest SACD or the latest FIM release, perhaps what their favorite high-rez album is. The look you get off their face should answer the question for you. They simply have not one clue as to what it is you are talking about. Ask them about a RTR or a vinyl TT and what they remember about them and most likely you'll get a deer in the headlights look about the RTR and maybe some fond memories of Grandpa's TT but no crystal clear recollection of what they sounded like. You might strike gold with one or two folks that could answer any of these questions but for the most part, they will just stare at you as if you asked them how to pronounce the word "audio" in Swahili. Then ask them if they are aware that a stereo system is actually capable of producing an image outside and all around the two speakers, creating what we call a "sound stage".

    Folks who are interested in finding out why I love this hobby so much are continually fascinated by the "concept" that two speakers can create an illusion, that sound can emanate from where the speakers are not and that an actual image of a singer or instrument can be had anywhere along this, new to them, sound stage. Many of them simply do not believe me or that it actually can and will happen with the appropriate gear, room and playback medium. Now when they come over [not all of them do] and I ask them what type of music they like, I allow them to sit down in the sweet spot. After making or picking out a selection of there liking, I start the music and say absolute nothing. Many of them will not even so much as move their head. They sit there, through the entire song and just experience the music. Not just listen, experience. Big difference.

    The #1 response I get from these folks is, and I quote, "I never knew a system could do that".

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited October 2012
    BlueFox wrote: »
    A good multi-channel system, along with good recordings, is how music is accurately reproduced. The only time live music is in "stereo" is if it is played in a flat, open field with no hills, trees, buildings, etc. around to reflect sound. Music played indoors is the combination of direct and reflected sound, which requires more that two speakers to accurately reproduce. However, stereo is much easier and convenient to record and playback at home.

    Hello, BlueFox and thanks for responding. I will say that I [personally] do not agree with your thoughts on multi-channel playback systems versus a 2-channel playback system and accurately reproduced music but this is a completely different discussion for another thread. We are simply discussing the merits of the reproductive efforts of a 2-channel playback system and why mainstream America doesn't know it even exists.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • dudeinaroom
    dudeinaroom Posts: 3,609
    edited October 2012
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Hello, BlueFox and thanks for responding. I will say that I [personally] do not agree with your thoughts on multi-channel playback systems versus a 2-channel playback system and accurately reproduced music but this is a completely different discussion for another thread. We are simply discussing the merits of the reproductive efforts of a 2-channel playback system and why mainstream America doesn't know it even exists.

    Tom

    +1and another
  • CoolJazz
    CoolJazz Posts: 570
    edited October 2012
    Folks I'm around have for years thought it was kind of funny that today's kids that are playing DJ didn't have any idea what it was like to have two tables and have to keep something going at all times. Sylus, tonearms, cue burn, B side...and so on, they'd give you blank stare at the terms and have no idea what you're talking about. More recently, we've started to realize that even that is outdated!! Many jocks today have no idea at all about playing CD's. They're kind of foreign to 'em. Watch them handle some and you can quickly see just how foreign.

    So this past weekend after a listening session with some buddies I was wondering why one guy is always after a strong thump in the chest kind of lower mid/upper bass sound. Now when your playing something loud, then lots of music has that kind of hit....if you have a stout system. But lots of music just doesn't have bass that should "hit' like that. Then it dawned on me....the vast majority of today's listeners have never heard music that isn't "assembled". It's now been years and years and decades since typical music on the streets was just recorded. Not multi-mic'ed, multi-tracked, mixed, produced, eq'd, processed, overdubbed with vocals that get fixed...and when is that drum part going to get here from California???

    For those more familiar with a few audiophile labels, or those of us that musically can reach back far enough, can identify with how different that naturally mic'ed, recorded live music can sound! It's not a IN YOUR FACE kind of sound. How can you expect people to know a stereo image when everything they can identify with musically has been assembled with twists of panpots and natural imaging just CAN'T exist on any more as a result!

    So sure it's a surprise to many! They've never heard it and usually haven't ever sat and listened to any single instrument played live 10 feet in front of them. So no connection to natural sound (that they've ever thought about) exists to most!

    CJ
    A so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements."

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  • Dennis Gardner
    Dennis Gardner Posts: 4,861
    edited October 2012
    I think that the appreciation for music reproduction falls into the same category as other niches in life. Asking someone about the latest SACD or FIM is like asking how many of us actually know the difference between a Screaming Eagle Cab vs. a Penfold Grange Hermitage , a Ruy Lopez vs. a Guioco piano, a mashie vs a niblick and when to use either, an Audemars Piguet Panda Strap vs. a Breitling Wind Rider. (personally I use my iPhone), a Hoffmeister kink vs. a Keen edge, Delphinus compared to Ophiuchus, Iranian sevruga vs. Russian Prime Osetra.....you could go on and on about niche items that the mainstream have little use for in their everyday lives, even though those that appreciate these finer things in life could never understand how we live without at least knowing what they are.

    If you had to Google any of these you aren't alone, you are just part of the mainstream. :wink:

    I guess the sad part of this is that many of us don't even know what a hemisemidemiquaver is even though we hear one on nearly every song we so lovingly go on and on about......and we say we are well versed in music.:cheesygrin:

    Different strokes.........
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,965
    edited October 2012
    hemisemidemiquaver ??

    Had one of those in my shorts once from swimming in a lake. Pain in the arse to remove too.
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