Best improvements for $600

sk88

Hi everyone, I am new here but I've been reading for some time. There is a lot for me to learn.
I've been thinking to upgrade my system. I wonder what would be my priority if I have $600 that I can spend. I would appreciate your suggestions.

What I have is a Sony STR-GX800ES AVR that powers a pair of Lsi9 for the rear and connects to a TA-N80ES which powers a pair of Lsi25 for the front. Output to the front is 270wpc@4ohm continuous (peak 520w@4ohm) and output to the rear is 90wpc@8ohm continuous (peak 185wpc@4ohm, there is no data for continuous output @4ohm). I don't have a center speaker as mostly I listen only stereo. When I do need surround for movies, I set the AVR to 'phantom mode' which divides the central channel output equally between the two front channels. I also don't have other separate subs. I use no-name interconnects and the Original Monstercable 10gauge speaker wires. I mostly play music from my ipod connected to the AVR. My listening area is about 15'x20' however connected wide open to another 10'x15' area in a L shape, all high ceiling.

Maybe I should replace all the cables, upgrade the x-over network on Lsi25 and Lsi9, buy another Amp to output more power (front and/or rear)? I don't know what can I do to make a noticible difference but I can only do it in steps and $600 is my budget for the first step.

I'd appreciate your advice.

BlueFox

Does the iPod have Apple Lossless files, and does the AVR accept digital files, or is it an analog input. If analog then the best thing you can do for improved audio is by a Wadia 171 iTransport, and rip CDs into Apple Lossless files for the iPod. Never play MP3 files, or buy music from iTunes since the files are lossy, and give crappy sound. If you are already playing lossless files then somebody else can suggest an upgrade.

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-10774-wadia-itransport-171-ipod-dock.aspx

PSOVLSK

Amp(s). Either a 5-channel or a couple of 2-channel. Sell your current amp to defray the cost.

audiogon.com. Parasound, B&K, NAD, Adcom, rotel, and Carver to name a few.

If you are close to a Modia store, they were having a clearance with pretty good prices on new Rotel gear. Not sure if they are still clearing it out, but worth looking into.

Toolfan66

Save your money till you can do a serious upgrade/upgrades.. Make it worth the time an d effort..

sk88

Wow, thanks for all the fast replies:

Bluefox, I never knew what is lostless files but I can guess what it means. I play just all MP3 files through the earphone output to one of the analog input of the AVR. I thought analog output from ipod is good enough but I'll look into the upgrade. According to your experience, how much difference does it make?

Psovlsk, may I ask for the amp upgrade you suggested was it for more power or my amp has less quality?

Toolfan, if I am willing to make a leap financially, could you suggest me the upgrade and how much money I'd need? (Please don't tell me to replace everything - LOL).

BlueFox

There really is not much sense in upgrading electronics if the source is lossy MP3 files. I would expect the DAC in the AVR to be better than the $1.99 DAC chip in the iPod. Your AVR does have a digital input, doesn't it? Anyway, ripping your own files from CDs into Apple Lossless will be a huge improvement over MP3 sound quality. With the Wadia as a source you can drive a $30,000 stereo with no regrets.

Inspector 24

Oh my gosh yes, get rid of the MP3's!

I as well as everybody I've done a/b comparison with has heard big differences between even iTunes on air play high bit rate music an a CD. Playing music through the headphone jack will make any system sound like it was purchased from Wal Mart!

After that cheap upgrade buy a center channel. I've read a few people are happy with having one vs running the AVR in phantom.

Tankman

Toolfan66 wrote: »

Save your money till you can do a serious upgrade/upgrades.. Make it worth the time an d effort..

+1,what he said.

deronb1

How about moving one Lsi9 to the center and sell the other one (200.00) Get a pair of used Lsi7 for the rears (200.00). Sell the Sony amp (150.00 - 175.00) and get a "decent" sub, like a Polk PSW 505 (200.00). That should get you to about even and you should have around 500.00 - 600.00 bucks for a solid 5 ch amp like Adcom, Rotel, B&K etc.

steveinaz

BlueFox wrote: »

There really is not much sense in upgrading electronics if the source is lossy MP3 files. I would expect the DAC in the AVR to be better than the $1.99 DAC chip in the iPod. Your AVR does have a digital input, doesn't it? Anyway, ripping your own files from CDs into Apple Lossless will be a huge improvement over MP3 sound quality. With the Wadia as a source you can drive a $30,000 stereo with no regrets.

EXACTLY. It starts with the source. Lose the MP3's.

rromeo923

Buy the Yaqin MC-10t that is in the For Sale section. No affiliation

I had a Sherbourn 7/2100 amp and a B&K Ref 50 pre. I bought a Yaqin MC-10L (very similar to the 10t) and it hands down blew away the Sherourn/B&K combo (which cost thousands more). Not even a question.

Went from 7 channel to 2 channel and really dont miss the surround. I listen to 2 channel almost exclusively now even for movies.

As to Mp3's. I have thousands of mp3's and I have thousands of hi res flac files. Is there a difference? Yes. Is that big of a difference? No. The real difference starts w/the original recording. I have some Mp3's that sound amazing and some flacs that sound like ****.

Anyway that is my two cents.

And yes the Yaqin can drive the LSi's. Mine was driving my SDA 1C's nicely and I have also used it w/LSi7's and it sounded incredible.

SDA1C

rromeo923 wrote: »

Buy the Yaqin MC-10t that is in the For Sale section. No affiliation

Not with less than a half a million posts he wont!

zingo

Source. I did an A/B test a few years back with an iPod and lossless files and the same CD in a mediocre CD player. The CD player was easily the better choice as the iPod sounded veiled and less dynamic.

I agree that digital files are easier to change than CDs, so take a nice step forward and get yourself a Squeezebox or another network streaming device to improve sound quality.

PSOVLSK

sk88 wrote: »

Psovlsk, may I ask for the amp upgrade you suggested was it for more power or my amp has less quality?

I was just thinking more of having the same kind of amp driving all of the speakers.

While those mentioning the source are no doubt correct, I really like deronb's suggestion. Only difference is I'd say hold off on the sub until you can get a good one instead of a decent one.

Devlon

I think one of the most important, but least implemented improvements is installing sound panels. Not matter how great your equipment is it will be compromised to some extent by your room's nodes, resonance peaks, etc. Look at this site. This company will give you a free room acoustics analysis to see if the sound in your room can be improved.

http://www.atsacoustics.com/page--Free-Online-Room-Acoustics-Analysis--ora.html

McLoki

Here are obvious options for you to spend money on. (in no particular order - you need to do that)

Subwoofer. (if movies are your thing - if you mainly listen to music (and its not classical) this can drop down in priority)

Room Treatments (I cant believe I am the first one to mention this - with the budget you have - you could really hear some HUGE improvements in most cases. Check into WAF as they can be ugly, but fit them into your room and you will wonder how you did without them)

Amp for the rear speakers (if your Sony is not going into protection mode now, I would drop this down on the list - if it is, I would move it way up)

Source - (seriously, you are using LSi's to listen to MP3's? - you can really do SOOOOO much better)


For me it would go like this -

Sound treatment
Source
Sub
Amp

but your priorities may be different.

Michael

gigbyt

emotiva xpa-5 used? maybe.

AsSiMiLaTeD

I would absolutely start with your source. Room treatments CAN make a huge difference, but without knowing your current situation none of us can definitively say that changing something there absolutely will make a difference.

However, I think it's safe to say that changing your source from lossy files running off an iPod to something better WILL make a difference. There are people who argue that compressed files sound as good to most people as a lossless file. I would agree that this CAN be true and on the same hand argue that if you cannot hear the difference between a lossy file and a lossless then you likely won't hear or appreciate to the full extent the difference between two amps or preamps or cables and I'd think twice about spending money on any upgrades there.

Here's what I'd recommend:

- Start by replacing your lossy mp3 files with lossless files, whether you go flac or Apple lossless is up to you, but on an iPod you'll need Apple Lossless. If you've purchased your entire music collection from iTunes then you're kinda screwed and in that case I'd recommend exerting some effort in trying to acquire your better recordings on CD and then slowly building your collection up. If you're in the same boat I was in and purchased CDs and just ripped your music in the lossy format well then you can just rip everything again, this is time consuming bue doesn't cost anything to do.
- If you have a computer always up and running and connected then check out a Squeezebox Touch or a Sonos player to stream those lossless files to your setup
- If you don't have a computer connected then check out the Wadia dock mentioned above to get the lossless files out of your iPod into the setup. This dock and some others on the market will bypass the DACs inside the iPod and give you better sound.

Now, if you are in a room with tile floors or alot of reflective surfaces then by all means you will want to introduce some softer surfaces like rugs or acoustic panels into the mix to tame those room reflections - anything beyond that though I would say takes a back seat to getting your source material straightened out.

rooftop59

Not much to add here except, yes SOURCE is the first thing to change. If you are putting mp3s on your phone then chances are you have a computer at home. If that is the case then a squeezebox is the way to go. But you need to have lossless files which requires that you buy cds. I buy almost all of mine used on amazon, ebay, secondspin.com or goodwill. Even with shipping, I almost always get them cheaper than the mp3 album on itunes or amazon.

I also second most of deronb1's suggestions, but think you should wait on the sub. Use that money for either a squeezebox or a the wadia dock or this: http://www.amazon.com/HRT-iStreamer-Outboard-DAC-iDevices/dp/B004H5UYLO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350327803&sr=8-1&keywords=hrt+istreamer. While it doesn't have the flexibility of the wadia (it only has analog out so you have to use the istreamer's internal dacs), it sounds quite nice and I will sound light years better than your ipod and most likely better than your receiver's dacs. i have the non-i version and it is very nice for the money.

Good luck! Man I wish I had 600 bones to spend on audio at once...

trans am

dude, the mp3s gotta go. I was in your shoes recently and I rediscovered cds. I hooked up an old marantz dv4001 dvd player and hooked it up to my rig recently and it blew me away. If I were you I would take it all down and just listen to the lsi9 and your 2 channel speakers and just listen to those. I see a lot of really good gear mixed with some really mediocre gear in your rig. First quit listening to mp3 and hook up a dvd player and listen to some cds on that and call me in the morning. If you want I would blow the sony on ebay and get a Adcom GFA 545II or gfa555ii on ebay and a gtp500ii or gfp555ii pre on ebay. You need to simplify things. take the best components you have and keep them and sell everything else.

do you have cds? or are you one of those dudes that just downloads mp3s? I am a vinyl guy so cd's are the next best thing to me.
mp3 are a nono. especially if you are playing of the ipod dac. I would spend the money on a good cd player and spend the rest on new cds. or get a record player and start listening to records. its a lot of fun!

leftwinger57

In maybe a related question,I run i-net radio from the headphone jack of my 7yo Gateway into a y splitter into 2 rca cables to my
listening room about 25' away.Then into audio1 of my Yamaha rxv-665.I have no optical out of the computer and only audio ins which didn't do anything.It all works w/o any interference or loss at volume .I was just wondering if there is another way and no the
computer is staying where it is.

sk88

So many thanks for all the suggestions. I am quite tight up today - last day for tax return so I want to read through all of the suggestions again tomorrow. On a quick note for now, I do have a PC running all the time with all my MP3's and I use a Netgear EVA8000 to stream all the songs via analog input to the AVR. It must not be very good as I can hear a low hum from it when there is nothing playing. But sounds like the first thing I should do is to correct my source. I think CD may not be very convinient so I'll learn more about lossless, flac (not sure what it is), SqueezeBox and others..... I'll have many other questions.

sk88

Thanks again for all the input. I've creafully read through all the replies. Below is what I am thinking in terms of priority and I'd apprecite any comment:

1. Source/sourece/source - got it and dump mp3. I briefly looked at squeezebox, sonos, wadia and istreamer just to understand what they are. I have to really think about what suits me better. Besides the hardware, the media and file format, one other issue I also have is where to find the music that I would like. Becasue I don't like to hear the same music all the time, I use pandora and internet radio station a lot for that reason. This may be off topic but how do you find the one you like without listening to 50 others that you don't?

2. Room treatment - This should be priority 1, but there is not much I can do other than hanging some panels on the wall facing the front speakers - it is basically a huge blank wall behind a sofa. There is nothing I can do on the other 3 sides (entry door way, windows/drapes and cabinets). However, this may take some time to pass the WAF issue. Can't do much to the floor (carpet) and ceiling (high) either. Also not much placement alternatives other than turning the speakers at different angles.

3. AVR/Amp - This is where I am not really sure. I don't watch movie on this system often because the TV is old and I don't have space for a center speaker now. I think I would want to replace the TV with a HD front projector first then figuring out the rest. For now, the AVR output 90wpc to the rear lsi9 and the amp output 270wpc to the front lsi25 which seems ok. I almost bought a second Sony N80ES for more power to the front (one for each channel) but I am glad that I didn't as it seems it lacks of any fan here.
4. sub - Another one I am not really sure. Having one for earth shaking is certainly wonderful, but I feel what I need most of time for music listening is a tight punchy bass. I am not getting that from lsi25 now and I am not sure if this can be fixed with a new amp, or by adding a sub and what kind of sub (i.e. low-bass, mid-bass, one 12" or two 8").
5. cables - don't want to raise a war here, but I probably will replace all my interconnects. I'll leave the speaker wires alone (I think it gets into the area of diminishing cost effectiveness).

I am wondering no one has mentioned x-over upgrades. I see some people upgraded lsi9, lsi15 and replaced the 8" driver in lsi15, but havn't seen people upgraded lsi25. Has anyone done it? What priority would you give to it?

nwohlford

sk88 wrote: »

1. Source/sourece/source - got it and dump mp3. I briefly looked at squeezebox, sonos, wadia and istreamer just to understand what they are. I have to really think about what suits me better. Besides the hardware, the media and file format, one other issue I also have is where to find the music that I would like. Becasue I don't like to hear the same music all the time, I use pandora and internet radio station a lot for that reason. This may be off topic but how do you find the one you like without listening to 50 others that you don't?

I like the Squeezebox Touch and Sonos products, but given your budget, I would look at a few other products.

I would look at the Pure i20 dock if you want a dock to allow you to play your iPod. It has both digital and analog out and surprisingly good built in dac for $100.

Another option is you want to wirelessly play music off your iPod touch/computer is use an AirPort extreme.

sk88 wrote: »

4. sub - Another one I am not really sure. Having one for earth shaking is certainly wonderful, but I feel what I need most of time for music listening is a tight punchy bass. I am not getting that from lsi25 now and I am not sure if this can be fixed with a new amp, or by adding a sub and what kind of sub (i.e. low-bass, mid-bass, one 12" or two 8").

A good sub would make a difference, but it would defeat having the lsi25s. I might be tempted to try the lsi9s plus a good sub and see what you think. If you like that I would think about selling the lsi25s and getting lsi7s for the rear. The difference between the lsi25s and the lsi7s could pay for the sub.

AsSiMiLaTeD

I wouldn't rule out the Squeeezebox Touch. It will play your current files, will handle lossless files as you get them, and has support for streaming services like Pandora and Rhapsody. The great thing about the Touch is that it also has a good DAC section. It's not as good as an external DAC, but is better than it should be at the price. I consider the Touch to be a great value at current market prices, add in an upgraded power supply and you've got an option that'll beat many CD players that cost twice as much. Add in an external DAC and you're approaching reference quality.

sk88

Just wanted to provide an update.
I've doubled my initial budget and decided to upgrade the XO in my lsi9's and lsi25's. I am convinced that I want to dump all my MP3's. Instead, I want to rebuild my collection by going only with FLAC and they will all be stored in my PC. I also want to use either Spotify or MOG online services. Those would be my two music sources fromm now on. However, there are many new gears that have networking and online capabilities. It will take me some time to figure out what (hardware and software) would work better for me and with what I already have. Therefore, I chose to spend the budget on my speakers for now thinking that it can only do good than wrong. I also bought some BH5. That'd be all what I can do to my speakers. I am also thinking about DIY interconnect cables, but that's going to be after the XO mod and BH5.

tonyb

You need to get the Lsi 9's their own power amp and get them off the receiver for one. Next, convert your music to a lossless format such as Flac,Wav, or apple lossless....won't cost you a nickel to do that. Next, get a decent dac to play your digital files. A decent used dac will run about 300, and a used amp another 300.

Damn, I'm pretty good at spending other peoples money.:cheesygrin:

sk88

tonyb wrote: »

You need to get the Lsi 9's their own power amp and get them off the receiver for one.

The receiver is powering the rear lsi9 with 90wpc. Not sure if this is not enough? I've look around some new avr but most of them just provides 100wpc. I like some avr that have online and networking capabilities.

tonyb

Avr's don't do a good job on 4 ohm speakers, get an amp, not a new avr. Of course you can always get both but with your budget it isn't going to happen.

So we have dump the MP3's
Amp for the Lsi's
Dac for your digital music

Can all be done within budget and as you upgrade in the future this will all still play a role. For 6 bones, this will give you the best bang for your buck.

EndersShadow

^This is assuming of course your AVR has pre-outs.

sk88

No, the receiver doesn't have pre-out. So I am thinking of getting a new "something" that would allow input either from an external DAC or has a good internal DAC, supports 5.1, and networking to a PC or NAS (so I don't need to get a Squeezebox). By the way, I am pretty happy with the free Spotify, but all the gears that supports it (Denon, Onkyo, Squeezbox, Sonos,etc) all require a premium account.