12ax7 choices

heiney9

I wait and wait and wait ans constantly check Ebay for all the tubes I buy. Most I ever spent on a pair of signal tubes was $86 and that's rare. I typcally spend between $55-75. That includes a lot of the expensive classic tubes. I won't even tell you what I paid for a pair of Sylvania GB TMBP 5751's.

I take that back....i spent $96 on a pair of Valvo ECC83 45* slant getters because I wanted them. Still below market price.

It does help I know what to look for and what questions ask and many times I buy from a seller who just doesn't have a handle on what they are selling or the percieved market price.

Then again I waited almost a year to try the highly praised Telefunken 5965's because I wasn't paying the going cost and bought mine pretty inexpensively.

H9

Dawgfish

I'm with you H9, I do the same thing. I'm beyond all hope for recovery LOL! I had set an absolute limit for a single tube at $100 and that had to be a special tube at that. Typically $40-60 per tube is what I spend. Well this past Sunday I got into a bidding war for a Bendix 6385 for my DAC and ended up spending $123 for a single tube. Ouch. It's supposed to be at the top of the heap for the 396A/2C51/5670 tube types so we'll see. I also have a Western Electric JW 2C51 coming in that is also supposed to be near the top of the heap also.

Ernie Jade I have heard the Mullard Long Plate 12AX7 and it's a great tube. Mullard tubes sound absolutely fantastic in my home system, but for whatever reason this tube did not sound as good in my apartment system as most of the American TM BPs, Raytheon long black plate 12AX7s, Valvo-Amperex 12AX7s, and Valvo Hamburg 45 degree slant getters. It just goes to show that what is best with one set of equipment/room/ears might not necesarily be the best if any one of the variables change. All I can recommend is trying them both eventually and seeing for yourself. From the sound you described that you were looking for in the OP, the tube I heard that most closely represents that sound is the RCA TM BP. Again though that doesn't mean you will get the same experience with your equipment, in your room, and your ears. Sorry, wish I could give you something more definitive.

erniejade

If i go for the rca TMP from HK, that comes out to 60$ a tube. I guess as long as I know I can re-sell them for what I paid, I have to problem grabbing them to try them out.

For the rca 12ax7, how do you tell if they are long plate?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-RCA-12AX7-Tubes-Black-Plates-/330810741519?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4d05db530f

erniejade

found some for 45 a tube for the rca 3mica black. i will grab them for a start and continue to look for the mullards!

Dawgfish

That's a good price for them. Snatch em' up. The RCA 12AX7s in the link you provided above are definitely long plates. They don't look like black plates though, but BPs can often appear like that in bright light (flash from camera). You can tell by the length of the plates, most long plate 12AX7s have a plate length of 17mm. You can easily tell the difference between long and shortplates after a little practice. Look at the short plates on these 5751s and notice the difference between the top of the plates and the top of the glass on the tube; http://www.ebay.com/itm/A4-1-matched-Pair-RCA-BLACK-PLATE-Stand-5751-12AX7-ECC83-TUBES-amplifier-/261105112779?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3ccb13d6cb
Pretty big difference.

You are walking on a pretty slippery slope now. Good luck with the purchases and please let us know what you find after listening to some different tubes.

Dawgfish

Oh one other thing, I was just looking at the RCA "12AX7" Blackplates in the link you posted above and noticed something. They are actually not 12AX7s, but 12AU7s. RCA uses an Octagon Date code with the type of tube printed within the octogon. If you look you will see "12AU7" within the octogon. It just goes to show you really have to be careful when purchasing tubes. What the title says the tube is may not actually be what it is.

headrott

In my DAC I have used the following 12AX7's and 5751's for a direct comparison in my system:

1) RCA 12AX7 long black plates
2) RCA 5751 TM BP's
3) Sylvania TM BP 5751's
4) Raytheon 5751's
5) Mullard long plate 12AX7's
6) GE TM BP 5751's
7) GE Long plate 12AX7's (both halo and square getters)
8) Amperex 12AX7's (both large and small halo getters)

There may be others that I can't think of right now. That said, I still recommend the RCA TM BP 5751 over any tube suggested if you intend on tightening up the bass in your system. The RCA long plate 12AX7's have a little deeper bass than the 5751, but it's not nearly as tight. The RCA 12AX7's aren't as detailed as the RCA 5751's.

The Mullards are good tubes, but not nearly as detailed as the RCA TM BP 5751's. They are slightly warmer sounding but the bass is not as tight or as low.

Also, as suggested I don't recommend buying tubes from China. I am sure there are some legitamite tubes comeing from there, but not only do I not like sending my money to China I don't like taking the risk of buying fake tubes. I hope this helps.

erniejade

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270973868449&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123

do they look like rca 5751 ?

Headrott thanks for the 411 I will go for the 5751, rca long plate, and muallrds, sylvania( if i can find a set reasonable on the mullard and sylvania tm BP or GP)

The link above is HK I will keep looking for USA that is for sure!! I have a person that is supposed to call me back on some rca and Sylvania gray plate out of Boston.

Dawgfish, thank you for saving me from making a mistake!. Its hard when a lot of whats out there, the writing is missing or wiped off and you don't know how to identify the tube without it!

heiney9

Here is a website I have found recently where average Joe blogs about different tubes.

I don't agree with all aspects of some of his opinions, but atleast the guy is trying to compare different tubes and give his opinion. He does sell tubes on Ebay and I have bought some from him, so he's legite in that regard. (atleast in the past 6 months, which is the last time I bought something from him)

Not sure what his audio/gear experiences or background is, but nevertheless it's another source I use for info, although he's about 90% correct. I have found some errors in his descriptions, etc.

http://tubemaze.info/

erniejade

Dawgfish too bad the link you sent me wasnt the 3mica! good price if it was LOL. H9 that site has a lot of 411. I have some reading material for today when it gets slower at work.

headrott

I have bought a number of tubes from Nikolay on his ebay page/through his tubemaze.info/ page. He is pretty accurate in his descriptions, but not perfectly accurate (hey, who is 100% accurate all the time). I would receommend purchasing tubes from Nikolay without hesitation. His testing equipment and tests are 100% solid. The tubes are in the condition he claims, period. I have no direct affiliation with Nikolay. I am just a satisfied customer after purchasing a number of tubes from him.

Speaking of tubemaze.info and Nikolay's tubes, another tube I am using in combination with the RCA TM BP 5751's is the Tesla E83CC tube. This is a fantastic tube! It has nice smooth highs but are fully extended. The midrange is nice (but not quite as good as the Mullard 12AX7's, Sylvania or RCA 5751's but still very good) and the bass is solid and deep. I am using one of the Tesla tubes and one RCA TM BP 5751 per channel in my DAC and the combination is outstanding! The Tesla E83CC is definately another tube to consider.

heiney9

Tesla E83CC are notoriously mis-labeled and mis-represented so be sure you are getting what you think you are getting. It can be quite the maze trying to find a "true" pair.

Just something to be aware of. Lots of Russian and Chinese made tubes have the Tesla label. IIRC, the internal construction of a 'true" Tesla E83CC should be similar to the Telefunken ECC803S, but I'd have to confirm that, or maybe Greg can.

H9

Dawgfish

Ernie,

I have bought a couple of sets of RCA TM Bps from this guy: http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-5751-Vacuum-Tubes-Valves-3-Mica-Black-Plate-Early-Style-/261114768944?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3ccba72e30

The tubes I have bought from him all sound great. He has a lot of them (or at least he did) so contact him, I'm pretty sure he can set you up with 3 matched tubes.

erniejade

Dawgfish wrote: »

That's a good price for them. Snatch em' up. The RCA 12AX7s in the link you provided above are definitely long plates. They don't look like black plates though, but BPs can often appear like that in bright light (flash from camera). You can tell by the length of the plates, most long plate 12AX7s have a plate length of 17mm. You can easily tell the difference between long and shortplates after a little practice. Look at the short plates on these 5751s and notice the difference between the top of the plates and the top of the glass on the tube; http://www.ebay.com/itm/A4-1-matched-Pair-RCA-BLACK-PLATE-Stand-5751-12AX7-ECC83-TUBES-amplifier-/261105112779?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3ccb13d6cb
Pretty big difference.

You are walking on a pretty slippery slope now. Good luck with the purchases and please let us know what you find after listening to some different tubes.

I can definitely tell I am on a slippery slope now thats for sure. The link you put in here was for a 2 mica not 3. so that would be the short plate yes? I still want to hear a set of tung-sol After I live with the rca for a bit, I think the mullard, and tung-sol will be my next ones to check out.

Dawgfish

Yes that is correct, that link was just to show you the difference between a shortplate and longplate tube and it is a 2 mica spacer tube. That's cool, you are doing the right thing by trying different ones out and finding out which one works for you. It's a really interesting journey. It's going to be cool to hear what you find.

Devlon

Check out vintagetubeservices.com

Great company

erniejade

RCA and Tung Sol on the way!

Devlon I have called him. Nice person and knows a lot about tubes!

dbaldus

Any update on this? Curious to hear what you thought of the new tubes vs the stock ones...

erniejade

The audio research SP16 stock tubes are EH. The good on the EH tubes are the highs are clear, sharp but, can get fatiguing fast.

I rolled in the rca 5751 3mica. Much fuller, the bottom end was huge and more of what I was looking for. The mids on my rig as well as the highs were a bit soft. The detail is there, but, its just softer, not has sharp sounding. More liquid vs sharp detail. While I do like them, I am not sure if they are a fit with the Legacy’s. I need to do more listening to them. They are a bit more mellow sounding so it just might be I need to get used to them more or give them more time in the system. Anyone with a brighter speaker, this would definitely be a excellent match!

Tung-sol from 1959-60. against the EH, highs are close on the 2 but, the Tung-sol is much fuller sounding and made the EH sound thin. Tung-sol vs RCA 3 mica. The Tung sol had a lot more on the high end. The mids were not as liquid as the rca but, detailed and in the bass the rca seem to have more bass but, its a different kind of bass on the Tung sol. It didn’t slam out at you but, it wasn’t weak either. It was sharp. It definitely has it’s own sound.

Newrival put it best when we were comparing cd players and his description of the Jolida was a warm and romantic, not lacking detail but, warm and fuzzy feeling, comforting. Where his MF cd was more analytical, sharp, detailed and it just comes down to what kind of sound you like. Same with the 3 sets of tubes I have.

I would like to get a mix between the rca and the tung-sol. The bass of the rca and the crisp top / fast sounding mid of the Tung-sol. I think as H9 suggested, Sylvania 5751 3 mica or the Amprex Holland. Depends on what is in my price range!

Remember I am using Legacy focus speakers. Not over bright but, not dull. If I was using the JM labs still, the RCA would have been perfect for them! Or if I didn’t have the Polk rti 12 just for HT, the RCA again would be my choice. On the legacy, they like fast and fast sharp sounding equipment, so the tung sol is a better fit. Both great sounding but, again, personal preference and synergy / speaker matching comes into play here.

larry777

Good review. I will have a look out for some of these.

dbaldus

Thanks for the review.

Couple questions for you:

1) Were the differences immediately apparent when switching from the stock tubes, or was it something you really had to sit around and listen to for awhile to notice the subtleties? In other words, are the stock tubes crap compared to all others and do I need to get them out of my rig ASAP?

2) I have the Tyler Acoustics Linbrook Signature System (single-piece towers) with the Seas Millenium tweeter. Apologies for the ignorance here, but would you consider those a "bright" speaker? Based on your comments about the bass, the RCA's sound like a great idea to me, but I'm trying to figure out which ones would likely be the best fit for my system.

Thanks!

erniejade

1. It was immediate. They were completely different sounding tubes between the stock EH and the RCA 3mica. The stock EH tubes in the AR sp16 are not crap and do sound good but, the other 2 I have do sound better. The stock eh and the tung-sol i sat for a min or 2 to hear the difference. At first because they both have good highs, it took a min or 2 to figure out what the difference in magic was. The Tung-sol on my system had the nice fast sharp highs but, the mids and lower end were better as well as a bit better soundstage. The RCA difference was night and day. Bass was much heavier, mids were more liquid but not that fast sharp sound as the other 2.

2. I had a set of Tyler Reference monitor II. They were a very good speaker and I did not consider them bright at all. Next to the Polk RTI12 for 2 channel, the Reference Monitor II were not overly bright or too FWD sounding. The rti 12 are much brighter and more fwd sounding.

In my livingroom, i need a brighter sound since the acoustics are soo dead in there! If you have a bright or more lively room, I think the rca would be a better choice. If your room is dead and need more on the top end to liven it up, I would choose something else.

I still want to check out the amprex!

Dawgfish

EJ,

Based on your descriptions I think the Sylvania TM BP 5751, Raytheon Windmill Getter BP, or Raytheon D getter TM BP would be the next logical step. The D getter Raytheons are going to be the most reasonable out of that bunch. The other two can get pricey. Anyways I do find these to be a little more airy on top than the RCA TM BP. They don't quite have the bass the RCAs do however, but it is still going to be better than the EHs in that regard. Amperex Holland large O getter and Mullard long plates should also be on your short list. Another good one is the Valvo Hamburg 45 degree getter. Tube rolling sure is fun, enjoy the journery!

erniejade

Update:

1st remember for a while now I said my living room acoustics were dead. Bright sounding equipment sounded normal and never got fatiguing.

I Moved part of my stereo to the den and put the tv in the living room. I did not move speakers since I cannot move them just yet due to recovering from a torn bicep and labrum. The den is a smaller room 10X12 with hard wood floors and an area rug in it with a leather couch. I have to dial in things but for the most part its moved. The speakers in the den used to be in the living room, Polk RTI12, till I got the Legacy Focus. In the living room the RTI 12 sounded tame and never ringy when pushed or fatiguing or even in your face sounding. Again remember the room acoustics in the living room are not good.

Putting the stereo in the den using the RTI 12 till I can , with the tung-sol in the AR sp16, now sound over bright and fatigued me out fast. The rti12 in the den after I changed speakers in the living room were in HT duty and sounded great for HT ( Pioneer sc27) in the den but music in that room on the rti 12, with the tung-sol was not a good match. The good though putting the system in the den, the mids are much more pronounced, everything sounds more like live music vs dead although not as much bass as it had in the living room. But, again, since I am limited on what I can move due to my arm, they are not dialed in and since i will be putting the legacy in the den, im not going to kill myself tyring to dial them in. What a difference in the room acoustics.

I think I will be putting the RCA’s back in and checking it out with them again since they tamed the top end. Until I get the legacy in the den, im not going to go too crazy tube matching up to the rti’s since they will be going back int he living room on HT duty.

The saga continues!

Dawgfish

Thanks for the update. Sorry to hear about your injury. I hope you get better soon. Let us know what you think after you've had a chance to do some roling in the new room.

Just as an FYI, I have been doing a little more experimentation with a Prima Luna Prologue 4 and rolled some Raytheon Black Plate 12AX7s in the input tube position. They sounded very good and had quite a bit more extended highs than the RCAs and good bit more than the Sylvania, while still having warm mids and solid low end. The mids and low end are not as good as the RCA or Sylvania 5751 TM BPs, but they are still quite good. I don't remember the Raytheons sounding that good when I was running them in my pre. I would have kept them in there, but I slipped in a set of Telefunken 12AX7 smoothplates. I have been on record that the TFs sounded sterile and lifeless to me in the past, but they sound anything but in the PrimaLuna. It just goes to show how everything is equipment/room dependent and you really have no way of knowing for sure until you try something out.