12ax7 choices

erniejade

Soooooo many choices for this tube. Audio Research sp16. Already had caps upgrade to clairity and black gate, and running Electro-Harmonix 12AX7-EH in it right now. I love the high end / crispness and the detail on it but, i am looking to get a little more out of the low end on it and a little smoother in the mid and again not loose detail.

I have a few choices picked out but willing to hear about different choices.

1. Tung-sol
2. Northern Electric
3.Preferred Series 7025
4 Gold Lion ecc83/B759
5. Mullard 12ax7 / ecc83 reissue.

On the Mullard there is a bit of 411 out there. Some prefer the new reissue and some prefer the 60's ones.

For older ones, I am being told to try out Amprex bugle boy. I looked on ebay for them but, i have no idea how to tell if they are 40's 50's or 60's versions and if there is a difference in the sound on the different years since there is a price difference in them.

Im open to suggestions!!!!

erniejade

Forgot to say the Tung-sol not the new Russuia ones, the ones that were made in NJ.

Dawgfish

Try some RCA Triple Mica Blackplate 5751s. These will give you the sound you are looking for. I've tried dozens of 12AX7/ECC83/5771 types and these are my favorites by far. My search for the perfect 12AX7 tube type ended once I heard the RCAs. Sylvania and Raytheon TM BP 5771s are also quite nice, but I find the RCAs have a little more detail and bass slam, while retaining warmth. Of course YMMV, but I would put these on your short-list.

acmf74

I personally use Psvane with great results froms top to bottom.

http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/store/products/12ax7-t-pair/

erniejade

Thanks for the suggestions! I will check them both out.

headrott

Dawgfish wrote: »

Try some RCA Triple Mica Blackplate 5751s. These will give you the sound you are looking for. I've tried dozens of 12AX7/ECC83/5771 types and these are my favorites by far. My search for the perfect 12AX7 tube type ended once I heard the RCAs. Sylvania and Raytheon TM BP 5771s are also quite nice, but I find the RCAs have a little more detail and bass slam, while retaining warmth. Of course YMMV, but I would put these on your short-list.

Dawgfish nailed it right here. I second his suggestion.

heiney9

Sylvania GB 5751, 3-mica gray or black plate. Earlier the better

Any of several label Philips Heerlen Holland produced, the earlier the better. Look especially for the 1959-1961 Large Halo versions with short plates. Amperex and Bugle Boy labels get about 15-20% more when Valvo, Siemens, Philips or other house brands are the exact same tube. Look at organ tubes because they are the exact same tube that has the BB label but they usually cost about 20% less.

Raytheon 5751 black plate w/horse shoe getter. Almost as nice as the windmill getter and easier to find and less expensive.

Valvo Hamburg 45* slant getter is superb.

RCA 12AX7 long plates with square getter are really nice and fairly abundant.

None of the current stuff really does much for me.

Of the above expect to pay a lot because these are among the best and most sought after. And well worth the cost, IMO.

H9

heiney9

If you want the best sounding 12AX7/ECC83 then look for Mullard long plates. (IMO, of course)

f91 and f92 coded are slightly later and are less prone to microphonics compared to the mCxx coded tubes which are the earliest of the long plates.

Expect to pay $$$, unless you fall into a pair like I did since the seller had no idea what he had.

H9

heiney9

Of the 5 on your list, I wouldn't bother. And to be blunt, the EH's aren't doing you any favors.

But then we all know where I stand on the classic old stock tubes vs. new production, espeically signal tubes. Can't stand most of them when comparing them to the one's I've mentioned.

H9

heiney9

erniejade wrote: »

For older ones, I am being told to try out Amprex bugle boy. I looked on ebay for them but, i have no idea how to tell if they are 40's 50's or 60's versions and if there is a difference in the sound on the different years since there is a price difference in them.

Im open to suggestions!!!!

If you need help navigating the waters let me know. There are several versions as well as a handful of private brands as well as other Philips brands and they are the exact same tube. Stay away from the World (Orange) Globe versions. They are much later and not the same quality, build or sound.

You will pay atleast a 20% premium to have the Amperex BB label.

H9

shadowlight

Hopefully OP would not mind my pigging backing on the thread, since I am looking for both ax7 and at7 for my Response Audio 3205 Extreme amp.

Any recommendation on where to purchase tubes which are reliable. Previously, I have used ebay but the stuff you get is hit or miss.

erniejade

Shadowlight, i dont mind at all.


H9, thank you for the help. The EH i do like the top end on them but, after that,,,,,,,... they can get harsh quick. So I want to keep that top end sizzle I have but, want the rest to get in line with it! The EH are the stock tubes that came with the AR pre. Its funny, the person who i was talking to about the tung-sol, when i said it came with EH tubes, he stopped me and said im sorry you had to hear them. LOL. It was funny. Honestly they are not that bad but, the mids/ bottom end seem thin to me. Not as full as I would like. To make a Legacy Focus speaker sound thin says something LOL.

For the Mullard, I was told that they were a darker sounding tube and wouldnt have the top end I want? . Not sure if thats true? Everything I have read about people that use them love them.

What about the 60's Tung-sol? I have a line on them and was thinking of trying them out. I was told of the history on Tung sol changing hands and made in Russia now and how the quality of the tube has gone down hill vs the original ones that were made in NJ.

Dawgfish, looks like you and H9 agree on the RCA. / Triple Mica Blackplate 5751s. I think i might need a set ( 3) to try out!



H9 thank you for the offer! when looking around, unless you know exactly what you are looking for, there is too many of the same tube type with 9 different brands that might be cheaper

shadowlight

Thanks Erniejade.

My previous tube preamp was based around 12au7 and the Raytheon/RCA black plates were the best bang for the buck in that pre, which was actually recommended by Bill Baker at Response Audio. I picked up some good Baldwin Organ Raytheon's. It is good to know that the Raytheon/RCA black plates 12ax7 are highly. Will start searching for them.

heiney9

I think the EH's seem ok simply because you haven't heard other classic tubes.

Erenijade, the only thing that matters on tubes are the production/factory codes, that's it. Labels mean nothing unless you want Amperex Bugle Boys or Original Mullard logo, etc.

As I've learned, read, poured over countless internet documents, sites, pictures, dealers web sites, etc......I can also look at the internal construction and see the tell tale signs of certain era tubes.

Feel free to shot me some links of tubes you are looking at and if the info is there I'll help decipher it. I wish I could say all Hammond organ tubes were of a certain type, but the truth is a company like Hammond or Lowrey organ bought tubes from everyone so knowing the tube codes and construction can help decipher what you are actually getting.

Over all, vintage Tung Sol tubes are superbly built and engineered among the best US tubes ever manufactured. They do have their own sound signature, however.

I used to think Mullards were dark too based on reading, but I own a lot of Mullard tubes and they are superb. Of course gear has a bit to do with it as well. There probably isn;t a better tube than a late 50's early 60's Mullard tube for female vocals, hair standing up on the back of the neck excellence.

H9

Big Dawg

heiney9 wrote: »

Any of several label Philips Heerlen Holland produced, the earlier the better. Look especially for the 1959-1961 Large Halo versions with short plates. Amperex and Bugle Boy labels get about 15-20% more when Valvo, Siemens, Philips or other house brands are the exact same tube. Look at organ tubes because they are the exact same tube that has the BB label but they usually cost about 20% less

H9

These are my favorites.

Dawgfish

As much as I love Amperex Holland Tubes (they are by far my favorite 6DJ8/6922 type), I find the highs to be rolled off just a tad to much for my tastes with their 12AX7 tubes, even the large halo versions. They do everything else wonderfully though, so if you have a system that is a tad on the bright side and are looking to tame down the highs by a hair, these would be a superb choice.

The Mullards, Amperex, Valvo Hamburg, RCA and Raytheon Blackplate 12AX7s, and Sylvania and Raytheon TM BP 5751 (square and windmill getters) are all fantastic tubes. As much as I love everyone of these tubes (and countless others I don't have the time to mention), they all had one thing that they didn't do quite as good as the other tubes. That all changed when I heard RCA TM BP 5751. It's the one tube I found in my system that did eveything superb, and didn't really give up anything to the others in any category. Sure the others may have been better in certain areas, but none of the others put it all together like the RCA (it really tied the room together :-)). Agian though, that's with my ears in my system and YMMV. Still though I would put them on your short-list like I said before.

When the OP described the sound that he was looking for, smooth but extended highs, lots of bass and detail, but still retaining warmth, that really sums up the sound of the RCA TM BP 5751 in a nutshell. I probably need to add the ones that have this sound were manufactured from the mid 50s to the early 60s and have the square or D getter.

Having said all of that, try different ones out and see what works the best for you. All of the tubes that the others have recommended above are great choices and will get you much better sound then the newer production stuff that what was mentioned at the beginning of the thread.

Dawgfish

headrott wrote: »

Dawgfish nailed it right here. I second his suggestion.

Thanks Headrott! Actually I have you to thank for turning me on to these. I remember you mentioning to try them and man am I glad I followed your suggestion! Awesome tubes!

heiney9

You see I don't find Heerlen Holland tubes rolled off at all in any application. If anything the RCA's while still very crisp are a tad darker.

Just goes to show that we hear thing differently and gear plays a part too. To be fair, the differences are minor, but after spending time with all different kinds of tubes one can pick up on the subtle flavors. That's why I've enjoyed experimenting with a plethora of different tubes.

H9

headrott

Dawgfish wrote: »

Thanks Headrott! Actually I have you to thank for turning me on to these. I remember you mentioning to try them and man am I glad I followed your suggestion! Awesome tubes!

Excellent! Glad I could help. The RCA TM BP 5751's are the absolute best tubes I've found for my DAC and I have tried literally more than a dozen 12AX7 types. Enjoy!

heiney9 wrote: »

You see I don't find Heerlen Holland tubes rolled off at all in any application. If anything the RCA's while still very crisp are a tad darker.

Just goes to show that we hear thing differently and gear plays a part too. To be fair, the differences are minor, but after spending time with all different kinds of tubes one can pick up on the subtle flavors. That's why I've enjoyed experimenting with a plethora of different tubes.

H9

I have to agree with you Brock. The Herleen Holland 12AX7's seem pretty bright to my ears and in my equipment as well. Not rolled off at all (IMO). I also agree the RCA 5751 TM BP's are a little darker sounding than the Herleen Holland (ex. Bugle Boys) tubes do. But, they (RCA TM BP 5751's) are only slightly darker sounding and wouldn't consider them "rolled off" at all. Detail is through the roof and the bass will destroy just about any other 12AX7 tube. IMO, they are perfect (for my system and ears).

Also, of note to the OP, the 5751's are slightly less gain compared to a 12AX7 and you will need to turn up the gain on your pre a little more.

Dawgfish

It has to be one of those ear of the beholder issues, which is totally cool and what makes this hobby such a personal thing to each listener. My description of rolled off highs in the Amperex tubes compared to the RCA TM BP requires a little more explanation. I agree whole-heartedly that the Amperex overall tone is definitely more of a forward, in your face type sound than the RCA and the RCA is slightly darker sounding. I think the confusion lies in that what I am describing as rolled off with the Amperex tubes in the highs would be more accurately described as less detail in the highs than the RCAs. As a drummer when I judge the overall highs of a system, component, tube, etc. I tend to listen to the detail and tone of the hi-hat, ride cymbal, and all of the other cymbals in a drum kit. In my system I hear more of the cymbals in greater detail and greater apparent volume with the RCA TM BPS. The detail and overall presence of the cymbals sounds a little more recessed with the Amperex, but at the same time the overall character of the Amperex tube is a little more in your face than the RCA if that makes any sense. Anyways leave it up to a drummer to have a jacked up view of tone. :-)

erniejade

I have found a place in HK, that has 3mica black rca, GE and Sylvania JHS all would sell me matched sets. .

Ge being the cheaper at actually 110$ for 4. RCA 180 for 3, sylvania JSH $230 for 3. . Of the 3 what would you choose? Take it another step, whatever you chose from the 3 winner vs the Mullard long plate what would you choose?

H9 i am sorry I have filled your inbox LOL

heiney9

You have to be way more specific and perhaps post links. 3-mica black plates are usually pretty good. I assume these are 5751? or are they actual 12AX7's.

That link you sent me earlier, it appeared there were 3 different brands and of the 5 tubes shown one was a 2 mica long arm halo getter the others appeared to be 3-mica and no way could I tell what the getter type was.

He's out of his mind if he thinks he will get that kind of money for a mish-mash of tubes. He stated matched pairs.....perhaps readings are matched but the tubes appear to be different. 3 out of the 5 are for sure different.

Those seem like high prices.

Which place in HK?

erniejade

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=261103443061&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123

This is the seller on ebay. 100% positive with 1149 feedback. I emailed him saying i need a matched set of 3. I also asked him what else did he have for the 5751 black plate 3 mica. On the link he said he can do a matched set of thoes 3
He also had raytheon jrp 5751 windmill,

ge ones he has

http://www.ebay.com/itm/matched-pair-GE-JG-5751-black-plates-3-mica-square-getter-1953-12AX7-ECC83-/261104012119?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3ccb030b57

I dont see a pic of the rca ones. I can see if he can send me a pic of them.

erniejade

H9 would you choose the 3 mica black over the mullard F91-F92?

heiney9

Raytheon JRP black plate windwill getters and Sylvania GB 3 mica are about the best of the best 5751's, and you will pay a lot for them.

My secret is the Raytheon 3 mica horse shoe or square getter JRP 3-mica blackplates are about 90-95% as good as the windmill getter and usually 40-50% less $$$.

I have a pair of GE's about the same year and the Sylvania and Raytheon are better, but they are almost 3X the price.

Those USAF are probably nice but the GB (gold brand w/steel pins) can be had for about the same price and are better. Some even prefer the gray plate GB 3-mica. I have a pair of each and like them both for different reasons.

H9

Dawgfish

I've always been a little weary of buying tubes from the far east due to the huge counterfit market over there. I'm not saying this guy is/isn't legit just saying you have to be really careful when buying tubes from the far east. The tubes look legit, but again they have gotten really, really good at counterfitting over there. Maybe some of the others onboard here have experience with this particuliar seller. His feedback is certainly strong so maybe everything is legit.

Of the types mentioned above, which are all very good to excellent btw, my personnal order would be:

1. RCA TM BP
2. Raytheon JRP Windmill (don't overlook the square getter TM BPS either, sorry H9 I was typing this as you posted, but I agree totally they are very nice tubes)
3. Sylvania TM BP (just a tick behind the Raytheons but still an excellent tube)
4. GE TM BP (also a very good to excellent tube and great bang for the buck)

It's really hard to go wrong with any of these. Hope this helps.

heiney9

erniejade wrote: »

H9 would you choose the 3 mica black over the mullard F91-F92?

They are too different sounding. If I had coin for one or the other I'd go Mullard long plate. Gear, associated tubes plays a roll as well.

When I got the new Dared integrated which uses 12AX7 and 12AU7 some combo's just didn't work like they would have had they been on their own.

H9

heiney9

Dawgfish wrote: »

I've always been a little weary of buying tubes from the far east due to the huge counterfit market over there. I'm not saying this guy is/isn't legit just saying you have to be really careful when buying tubes from the far east. The tubes look legit, but again they have gotten really, really good at counterfitting over there. Maybe some of the others onboard here have experience with this particuliar seller. His feedback is certainly strong so maybe everything is legit.

Of the types mentioned above, which are all very good to excellent btw, my personnal order would be:

1. RCA TM BP
2. Raytheon JRP Windmill (don't overlook the square getter TM BPS either, sorry H9 I was typing this as you posted, but I agree totally they are very nice tubes)
3. Sylvania TM BP (just a tick behind the Raytheons but still an excellent tube)
4. GE TM BP (also a very good to excellent tube and great bang for the buck)

It's really hard to go wrong with any of these. Hope this helps.

For me RCA TMBP are on the radar and I'd put it below 2 and 3 but above 4.

1950's RCA 12AX7 long black plate w/ square getter is a superb tube and they are pretty inexpensive. If fact in my rig these sound similar to the RCA TMBP 5751.

H9

heiney9

Just do what I do, get them all and evaluate them in your rig :razz:

H9

Dawgfish

Works for me!

erniejade

LOL H9 you inbox is full.

I would go broke!!!! I need to get lucky and find a garage sale with a box o tubes. LOL Dawgfish, have you heard the mullard long plate 12ax7?

Gear associated, 1 acoustically horrible dead room, Audio research sp16, wyred for sound dac2, flac played on Jriver, Pioneer Elite PD-9 sacd, DH labs air matrix IC, DH labs q10 speaker wire, Legacy Focus speakers, Pro-ject phono box SE, technics 1200 with a denon dl160. Amp for now is a sunfire signature II 625 x2 re-done by Rolland. Side note on that, talk about a night and day difference! when it came back I didnt think it was the same brand! Mids cleaned up, bass was faster, just a night and day difference.

H9 if that place pans out next week, i will grab all of the kinds listed but ebay prices are commanding top $ so, I can do 1 more expensive set, ( 250-300 ish if needed) and 1 cheaper set to so the rca 12ax7 long plate black for the cheaper set it is!