Is it totaled?

Nhpm510

Someone blew a red light and the Mrs hit his car really well. Mrs was in a 2008 Honda Pilot doing about 40 mph.
The Pilot's front end is fairly well crushed. She nailed him center mass to his passenger front tire. Any one know when they call the vehicle a loss?

Obviously and most importantly the Mrs should be okay and I'll spend the next few days nursing her aches and pains. She was wearing her seat belt and red light runner wasn't.

Nhpm510

I'll try and upload some picture shortly.

Sherardp

A vehicle is usually considered a total loss when there is significant impact and or damage to the frame of the vehicle. In some cases, that's not so and depends on total worth of the vehicle vs. cost of repairs using a percentage base. If your front is smashed, I would think they will total the vehicle out though.

Syndil

Front end is designed to deform in order to absorb the impact. In that kind of collision, I would want the vehicle to be totaled. I would not want someone trying to fix that kind of a mess and then driving the repaired vehicle. It would never be right again.

Clipdat

Sorry to hear about the crash, hope your wife will be ok with no lasting injuries.

Polkersince85

If the front frame is crumpled and the air bags went off, it's probably a goner. Always kick the windshield out when getting out.

Nhpm510

Polkersince85 wrote: »

If the front frame is crumpled and the air bags went off, it's probably a goner. Always kick the windshield out when getting out.

After two days of dealing with the I needed a good laugh..thanks.

Nhpm510

Clipdat wrote: »

Sorry to hear about the crash, hope your wife will be ok with no lasting injuries.

Thanks for the sentiments. We surely hope so too. The soft tissue neck and spine injuries can be lingering and long term. Also worried her psychologically as the other fella went by Trauma Hawk (helo) to a different hospital.

Nhpm510

The Pilot is a few feet shorter than it started the day.

Nhpm510

Sherardp wrote: »

A vehicle is usually considered a total loss when there is significant impact and or damage to the frame of the vehicle. In some cases, that's not so and depends on total worth of the vehicle vs. cost of repairs using a percentage base. If your front is smashed, I would think they will total the vehicle out though.

Syndil wrote: »

Front end is designed to deform in order to absorb the impact. In that kind of collision, I would want the vehicle to be totaled. I would not want someone trying to fix that kind of a mess and then driving the repaired vehicle. It would never be right again.

The passenger side frame is bent in (probably first foot or it). Amazing how the front metal bumper V-ed in. Driver airbag deployed and windshield spidered cracked a bit.

Edmunds has the value around 22k.
Can they fix it for 60% of value? $13,200
17.6k at 80%

Go figure as we recently paid it off. It only had 40k miles on it.
As much as I don't want a car payment I am torn as to hoping it is declared a total loss. I know it'll never be the same.

Nhpm510

Is the front metal bumper/frame supposed to crumple in a V-shape?

nooshinjohn

I am glad your wife is ok... as for the car, it did it's duty and spared her from greater harm. May it rest in peace because it's gone. Based on the photos, I would not in any way let anyone in my family ever drive it again. If the insurance company wants to fix it, fight them every step of the way. My understanding of these vehicles is that if the airbags pop, you have at least 5 grand just to fix the dash.

Nhpm510

When we went to pull our stuff out I remembered I had a CD from the public library in the deck.
I reattached the battery cables to try and eject it. My helper accidentally (and to Honda's credit) started the engine.
(We shut it off asap) I was pretty impressed that the Pilot still had it in her.

We are totally in agreement the Pilot did its job.

Sherardp

Like the others have mentioned, glad your family is ok bro. I think they will total that one out for you.

Thorton

Glad everyone is OK. That is Kaput. It looks like way too much damage to repair. You wouldn't want it if they repaired it anyway.
____________________________________________________________________________________
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cfrizz

I'm glad your wife wasn't seriously injured! I think both cars are goners.

janmike

Glad all are safe.

quickr1

glad everyone is safe. you already mentioned it but, yes that car will never be the same.

cnh

Have to agree. Good people walked away from that one. But there is NO way that car will ever be the "same". So take the money and run! Get as much as you can, of course. Since you're car is relatively new and has a higher book value than most cars that are totaled you're probably going to have some difficult negotiations with the Insurance company over getting top dollar for it! I suspect!

Insurance? Can't live with it! Can't drive without it!

Good Luck!

cnh

rpf65

Without actually being able to crawl under it, I would say the frame is bent. If your insurance company doesn't total it, have it towed to your house. This way you won't be charged a storage fee at the body shop, and have more negotiation time.

Hope all is well with the Mrs.

Good luck

kn505

In general, the insurance company would consider the car is totaled if the repair cost is higher than the difference between the car values before and after the accident. For example, the value was $22k before the accident and now worths only $10k (for parts or whatever). The car would be totaled if it costs more than $12k to repair.

Nhpm510

Showed my wife the thread and she appreciated the kind thoughts from all. I am just very glad to be showing her the thread at home vs in a hospital bed somewhere.

Thanks for the insights and suggestions on the insurance process. I'll update once we hear the appraisal/estimate situation.

codyc1ark

Wrong wrong and wrong. MOST states consider a vehicle a TL at 75% of the current market value of the vehicle. Some will vary by 5% or so. From the photos it looks like your wife may have been on the brakes a bit and doing a nose dive, so the majority of the impact may be above the frame rails, though it does look like you may have some damage to the right apron. That hit doesn't look awful, and since your vehicle by edmunds may be worth ~22k, it may be a fixer. If your company thinks it may be a repairable vehicle, make sure you take it to a good shop. Being a dealer, Honda or not, doesn't make it a "good" shop. Look for any shops that they work with, if you take it to an independent shop you won't have a leg to stand on if they fix it with the insurance company. Either way, if it's fixed or totaled, please feel free to PM me rather than take claims advice from people who are guessing. ANY hit can be fixed correctly, but you have to know what to ask for, look for, and how to understand it. I'd need to see a few more photos to give you any better advice...

It's suggestions above that give people all the wrong ideas and make working with an insurance company tough sometimes, everyone has .02 to offer but no idea what their talking about. Best of luck!

End rant. :biggrin:

ViperZ

Why do you keep talking about frame? This is a unibody car, like pretty much all modern cars and SUVs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Pilot

With that kind of damage, the garage will have to make sure that the body is straight. IMHO, the car is a goner. It did its job - saved your wife's car, which is the best thing.

Nhpm510

I was reading about the Pilot and learned it was a uni-body.
How would an auto shop fix a uni-body vs typical body on frame design?

codyc1ark

ViperZ wrote: »

Why do you keep talking about frame? This is a unibody car, like pretty much all modern cars and SUVs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Pilot

With that kind of damage, the garage will have to make sure that the body is straight. IMHO, the car is a goner. It did its job - saved your wife's car, which is the best thing.

however, it is also fortified with integrated perimeter frame rails, which helps it withstand towing and light off-road use

It is both a unibody and full framed vehicle.

Nhpm510 wrote: »

I was reading about the Pilot and learned it was a uni-body.
How would an auto shop fix a uni-body vs typical body on frame design?

Depends on the extent of the damage. Some areas may be able to be repaired depending on the extent of the damage and where it is. Otherwise, it's cut out and replace with a new or recycled assembly. Now, I know when I say recycled you think junk, not true. No good body shop will put a part that they cannot stand behind on your vehicle, or they won't be in business very long.

One of the sad things in the industry right now is that body shops have cut training in the last five or so years by a bunch. You have techs training new guys on how they learned it twenty or thirty years ago. Vehicles have changed so much, and starting in 2013, it's going to be a whole new ball game from even five years ago. Let's say your Honda is worth 22k, if your state is a 75% state, that means they can put up to $16,500 into it before its totaled. Most states can't factor in loss of value for someone who is at fault in a loss, besides a five year old vehicle has lost any value it will loose, accident record or not. Just the way it is.

Now, onto the "It'll never be right again" notions that people have... I said above, any vehicle CAN be repaired, to or better than factory spec. Most of the time its that you will pay more attention to it after the wreck and repair then you ever did before. People don't pay nearly as much attention pre loss,mbecause it works. Also keep this in mind, vehicles are not perfect from the factory. Last gen f150's has a huge variance on frames depending on what factory turned them out, GM has had documented cases of drunk and high UAW workers. Lots leave the line not in spec, lots get damaged or twisted in transportation, and even fixed before they hit the dealer. I can't tell you how many buy backs I've seen on brand new vehicles because of factory work, or damage in shipping. Either way, feel free to PM me when you get some word, I'm more than happy to help you out.

nooshinjohn

Cody, having worked the line building Toyotas and Subaru vehicles, I can tell you that the tolerances involved on assembling a new vehicle are so tight that the types of errors you speak of are nearly impossible to ever get out of the door when speaking of a non-union Japanese run plant. Every 100th vehicle was torn down for inspection, and measured for absolutely everything. Daily, my guns were checked for specified torque, and that was true for every pneumatic or electric tool on the floor. If a mistake was found, every car that was produced between the previous test car and wherever the defect was found and the origin point was walked back and checked before the car would clear the port or the line and be allowed to ship. Sometimes... they would stop the line right then and there.

Honda follows a much stricter Q/C than Toyota did. I doubt seriously that his Pilot will ever be as good as it was the day it left the plant after the hit it took.

The Pilot is a full "unit-body" construction. You are correct to say that the perimeter would be called a "frame", but given that it is fully incorporated within the body structure itself and cannot be separated without cutting the welds, the full structure would still be called a unit-body. A GOOD bodyshop is essential for putting this back together, given that the glass cracked, this would be an indication to me that the passenger cabin has been compromised in some way. Glass is a structural bonded element (stressed), and the fact that the airbag deployed means there is damage to the dash as well.

codyc1ark

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Cody, having worked the line building Toyotas and Subaru vehicles, I can tell you that the tolerances involved on assembling a new vehicle are so tight that the types of errors you speak of are nearly impossible to ever get out of the door when speaking of a non-union Japanese run plant. Every 100th vehicle was torn down for inspection, and measured for absolutely everything. Daily, my guns were checked for specified torque, and that was true for every pneumatic or electric tool on the floor. If a mistake was found, every car that was produced between the previous test car and wherever the defect was found and the origin point was walked back and checked before the car would clear the port or the line and be allowed to ship. Sometimes... they would stop the line right then and there.

Honda follows a much stricter Q/C than Toyota did. I doubt seriously that his Pilot will ever be as good as it was the day it left the plant after the hit it took.

The Pilot is a full "unit-body" construction. You are correct to say that the perimeter would be called a "frame", but given that it is fully incorporated within the body structure itself and cannot be separated without cutting the welds, the full structure would still be called a unit-body. A GOOD bodyshop is essential for putting this back together, given that the glass cracked, this would be an indication to me that the passenger cabin has been compromised in some way. Glass is a structural bonded element (stressed), and the fact that the airbag deployed means there is damage to the dash as well.

We can agree to disagree. :cheesygrin: They may leave in spec, but have you ever wondered what kind of damage can occur on a car carrier barreling down a road at 70mph? Yes, Honda and Toyota are known to have better QC, but no process is perfect. Any vehicle can be put back together and be just as good as it was before, as long as its done correctly and the repairs follow the manufacture recommendations. But the issue I was getting at, most shops don't have that kind of training. I can't tell you the last time I saw a frame being repaired correctly, and most of the time it's pure laziness. Like John said, pick a shop that can handle this kind of hit, I know you may not want it fixed if it is, but she wrecked it, you have to live with it.

nooshinjohn

The experts will need to make the call here Cody, but physics don't lie. The forces involve in this type of impact distrubute un-imaginable stress loads through the entire structure. These forces alone have altered the vehicle and have weakened the body shell in areas that remain hidden. Can it be rebuilt? We could raise the Titanic and rebuild her too, but I would never want to put to sea on her.

The entire crash time is less than 1/10th of a second. The air bag needs to be inflated early in
the crash in order to cushion the occupant. As it deflates, it slows the occupant down over a
relatively long period of time, which makes air bags so effective in reducing injuries. The
other safety components, especially the seatbelts, are also carefully matched for each make
and model.
Timing is very important because each vehicle model does have a different crash pulse. If the
vehicle is damaged, it is important to restore the sensors and the structural safety elements
to their original conditions. Structural repair is risky for the timing sequence. If the technician
does not restore the vehicle to pre-accident crushability, the shape of the pulse may change.
If the repairs have made the crush zone softer, this can fool the sensor and the air bags may
not deploy because too much time has passed before the deploy threshold was reached.
Too much time means the driver will hit the steering wheel and other interior surfaces rather
than the air bag exploding when the passenger is too close. If the structure is repaired too
stiff the air bags will deploy, but this may put excessive G’s on the driver and passengers.
Remember, all this happens in under 1/10th of a second.
As new vehicles get lighter and lighter it is structural engineering that protects passengers in
a collision, not mass. The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety spends a lot of money
($60,000 per car) crash testing new cars to pressure OEMs (original equipment
manufactures) to design and build safer cars. However, there is no system used by the
insurance companies or their repair dealers to confirm that structural repairs have been
completed to factory tolerances. This is why you need to know the vehicle’s most important
safety feature, the crush zone, was repaired properly so it will perform as it was designed to
perform in a serious crash. A professional post repair inspector (PRI) can help and should be
consulted if you have a vehicle that is going to need repairing or has repaired structural
components. This should also be considered when buying a used vehicle as most insurance
claim repairs are not yet reported to information providers like CarFax.

codyc1ark

Agreed with that reading. Most shops don't understand that a frontal impact can affect the rear structure of the vehicle, and vice versa. You tell that to a tech and he will look at you Locke your crazy. You can have a diamond condition on a unitized structure, not understood by 90% of the people who are doing the repairs. I'm all about collision theory.

This is the fact of the matter though, if his company deems it a repairable vehicle he doesn't have a leg to stand on. You ever hear of someone suing there own auto carrier? Good luck, that policy IS a contract. He does have a few options in certain situations, depending. I'm just trying to set him up to know what to expect either way, not give some off the cuff commentary about what I 'think'.

Nhpm510

still waiting for the ins. estimate....