Initial Impression - Dared SL2000a

CCNJ

Had time to give the Dared SL2000a a listen this evening. I installed a 1955 Bendix 6106 rectifier tube and two 6201Valvo Hamburg Gold pins from the early sixties (Thanks H9 - your tube posts opened up a whole new world for me and opened up my wallet as well :eek:) I also changed out some interconnects as I bought some new Kimber PBJs. I realize that I need some break-in time but my system sounded damn good!

I played a few of my favorite's such as Patty Larkin, Melody Gardot, Adele, Barton Hollow, Ali Farker & Ry Cooder, etc. There was a definite warmth to my system that was lacking previously when I used the benchmark HDR as the preamp. The music was more involving and I felt like I had a first row seat at a Patty Larkin concert. It was pretty cool and gave me goosebumps a few times. I even got a "that sounds really good" from my wife in the other room. That was a first!

I didn't do enough listening to form any real judgements yet other than to say it sounds really really good. The one negative for me was the bass did not seem as tight as I experience with using my Benchmark as the pre. Everything is a tradeoff I guess but both are very capable preamps.

I didn't receive my BRIMAR 5z4g yet but I am anxious to her the difference when I swap in that tube. I also have two other 12AT7 NOS tubes to try (Telefunken 5965 and Siemens/Halske ECC81).

This is a fun hobby!

Ern Dog

We have the same taste in music, except that Adele cd has such poor recording quality that I no longer listen to it

Glad to hear you are enjoying the Dared. It's only going to get better as things settle in more.

Cheers!
Ern Dog

GlennDog

I am about to experience the wonderful world of tubes very, very soon.

You're right, This is a fun hobby and I'm not even there yet!!! I'll post details soon

G

heiney9

The Brimar should bring the bass back. I did find using the Bendix 6106 the bass was a little tighter but also just a tad lean. Roll in some early RCA or Raytheon black plates. The Raytheon 6414 is a favorite of mine, pretty inexpensive and they have a little fuller bottom end than the Valvo 6201.

Glad you are enjoying it as well as the Valvo 6201's.

H9

P.s. The TFK 5965's should give you some huge bass!

heiney9

Another tube I give high marks to is anything in the early Sylvania line. Especially the Gold Brand 3-mica tube.

I have a pair of 6201 2-mica black plates (Gold brand); 12AT7 Gold brand 3-mica gray plates (short ladder style) and JHS-12AT7 2-mica black plates and they all sound phenominal.

I have been on a Sylvania tube kick lately with all my tube gear and the early stuff is really superb.

H9

heiney9

Also get yourself a pair of Amperex Bugle Boy 12AT7's. Holland made are best, but the French made are 95% as good. Another superb 12AT7, and they are pretty reasonable.

H9

nspindel

Brock, do you know anything about the 12AX7's that are labelled Hammond (as in the organ...)? Supposedly identical to Amperex Bugle Boy, made in same Holland factory, just labelled for Hammond. Got my eyes on a few of those, quite reasonable for the Dared MC-7P.

heiney9

Yes, I do, but I'd need to see a link and have some questions answered. Hammond labeled tubes could be just about anything.

If they are reasonable then they are either very late or not Philips Amperex or the guy doesn't know what he has. They are even know to be labeled "Made in Holland", but aren't. The earlier large halo I61 or I62 and very few I63 production codes are the ones to look for. The later 1962-1968 small halo are nice too, but the large halo are the ticket if you can find them.

I am talking about 12AX7/ECC83.

Interesting little blurb about Amperex tubes.

http://pax-comm.com/pa01003.htm

H9

nspindel

I don't want to keep filling up your PM box! So hopefully nobody snags these from under me!!!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221119757842?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

and

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251145780236?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

I need four 12AX7's altogether.

heiney9

Bugle Boy tubes were specially selected for audio and if you find one with a treble cleft too, those are specially selected for ultra low noise.

The thing that is great about most, if not all, organ tubes is they were usually screened to be among the quietest so if you buy organ tubes they are generally very quiet tubes.

H9

heiney9

nspindel wrote: »

I don't want to keep filling up your PM box! So hopefully nobody snags these from under me!!!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221119757842?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

and

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251145780236?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

I need four 12AX7's altogether.

The first auction is for later 1967 small halo Holland made tubes. I prefer the earlier 1959-1965 Holland made tubes. I'd try and stick with the same production code if you need a quad.

The second auction (I am watching that one too) is a mix of an earlier large halo and a later small halo. I63 delta 1C2 is large halo (1961) and the I65 delta 3D2 is small halo (1963). Large halo and small halo do sound different. I have both and each of these in the second auction would be a spare for each pair.

H9

nspindel

Think I'm going to give these a try. They fall into the "cheap enough" category.

nspindel

Done. The four cost me less than a single Mullard would. Worth the try!

nspindel

heiney9 wrote: »

The first auction is for later 1967 small halo Holland made tubes. I prefer the earlier 1959-1965 Holland made tubes. I'd try and stick with the same production code if you need a quad.

The second auction (I am watching that one too) is a mix of an earlier large halo and a later small halo. I63 delta 1C2 is large halo (1961) and the I65 delta 3D2 is small halo (1963). Large halo and small halo do sound different. I have both and each of these in the second auction would be a spare for each pair.

H9

The nice thing about the dual triodes is they rarely need to be matched. If you have two tubes where one is left, one is right, you need to worry about them being an exact match. But with the dual triodes, you have left and right running through the same tube. So a bit of a mix/match like this shouldn't be as problematic I wouldn't think. We'll see, should have them fired up soon enough! I always love music with a Hammond B-3. Maybe these will bring good luck!

heiney9

I agree but the build codes actually signify internal structure changes, some are minor some are not so minor.

The large halo I61, I62, I63 do sound slightly different than the small halo I65, I66. Whether it's enough not to mix and match, that's up to the individual.

An early RCA "D" getter tube sounds a lot different than a later halo getter tube. Plus the later tubes I feel (in general) are not as good as earlier tubes. The build quality, craftsmanship, raw materials started to slide pretty good by 1969 into the mid 70's.

I am anal about atleast running the same build of a tube. Don't care about how they are labeled but DO care about making sure they are the same production coded tubes.

Although the Bugle Boys sure look purdy!!!

H9

heiney9

I am surprised Neil, you strike me as being as anal as me. I couldn't live with a large halo and small halo Heerlen tube, nor from 3 different build batches.........:eek::razz:

And I just won this to go with another single I have from the same build. 1961 Amperex BB large halo

http://www.ebay.com/itm/120980768786?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649&autorefresh=true

H9

nspindel

Other thing is, I don't need a "quad". I need four. One for the power stage, one for the preamp stage, and a pair for the phono stage. We'll see how they sound...

heiney9

They should sound nice. I don't think I've met an Amperex/Philips Holland made tube I don't like. Organ labeled tubes are typically a little cheaper. One has to be careful though because there are Canadian made Philips tubes and they do sound different and will even say "Made in Holland" when they aren't. Typically instead of the delta symbol they have lower case "r". Not saying these are bad, but always be aware of what you are buying. Many tubes labeled "Electrohome" are Canadian made tubes on Philips equipment, but then again some Electrohome labeled tubes ARE made in Holland at the Heerlen plant. I believe Electrohome was a Canadian organ manufacturer.

LaRadiotechnique in Suresnes France also makes tubes on Philips equipment for Amperex and other Philips labels, and I really can't tell the difference between Holland made tubes, but they are typically less expensive than the Heerlen Holland tubes. Instead of the delta sign you will see an upper case "F"

Anyway, sorry for the derail.

H9

Dawgfish

I have a pair of early Herleen large halo getter Hammond badged 12AX7s and they are superb! I'm with H9, they are definitely one of my favorite 12AX7/5771/ECC83 types. I rotate them in and out of my pre with some RCA TM BP 5771s just for a change. Overall I like the RCAs a tad better, but all of the Herleen Phillips/Amperex tubes have a sweetness in vocals, especially female vocals that is unmatched. When I feel like listening to some Diana Krall, Nora Jones, or other come hither female vocalist, I love to roll in the Amperex tubes.

CCNJ

I just received the Brimar rectifer 5z4g manufactured in the 50's and also rolled in a pair of the Telefunken 5965s long plates. I wasblown away by the sweetness of this combination. I did not experience any micrphonic issues with the 5965s which made me especially happy. I think I am ging to stick with this combination for awhile and just enjoy the music.

A couple of side notes
- The Brimar rectifier is huge compared to the Bendix 6106. I almost thought I ordered the wrong tube but it fit perfectly
- The dared wooden chassis leaves something to be desired. It rocks a little when swapping out tubes and the bottom has some rough points that scratches my cabinet when moving it. I am thinking about a wood working project where I replace the wooden chassis and also maybe make a small wooden platform for it to sit on.

Chris

heiney9

One of my favorite combo's enjoy!!

I ordered some urethane vibrapod type feet.

H9

doctor r

I am glad that a little tube magic is in your system. As you stated above there are always a few trade offs. The open soundstage and sweet mids have always made up for the base, though if you listen the base is all there, just not presented the same as some SS pres do. Enjoy and just remember you do have to get some sleep.

Rick

heiney9

No trade off in bass with the Dared for me. I traded robotic, somewhat synthetic bass for a more natural organic bass. Hardly a tradeoff in my book. But it does rely on tube selection to a certain degree.

H9

vcwatkins

heiney9 wrote: »

more natural organic bass.

Well put. Organic. Soulful. The Brimar/T-funk combo that CCNJ just installed is still my favorite in the Dared. I wouldn't characterize the bass as remarkably fast (maybe one such trade-off?), but there's a lovely, sweet, 3D goo in the plucks, kicks, and organ chords that is so pleasing to my ears. Bass is not overemphasized - the 5965 seems perfectly balanced to me - but it does draw my attention because of its authentic soulful quality.

Steely Dan's "Black Cow" on the Aja mfsl is one of my reference tunes. When played thru that pre setup, it (esp the intro) is so intoxicating to me that I almost always listen to the entire album. That means I listen to Aja a LOT. hehe. My son says he will never be able to listen to Black Cow again. LOL. I have the same "problem" with "Long Grey Mare" from Fleetwood Mac's 1968 FM.

The 5965's are similarly magical in the little Dared hybrid integrated pushing the vintage Hartleys.

Craig

heiney9

Bass in real life isn't lightening fast either.

How are you using 5965's the Dared hybrid integrated? It takes either 6N1P or 12AX7 depending on which model you have. Neither are really a sub especially if yours uses the 6N1P. The 5965 is similar to the 12AV7 so it's in the same family as the 12A*7, but the 6N1P uses a 6V heater and that is not compatible with the 12V heater used for the 12AX7 version.

H9

vcwatkins

Before buying the hybrid, I did some quick reading and noted I saw in a review and, I THINK (but didn't note) I saw on the Dared site, that 12AT7 could be used. The interchangeability of these tubes with the stock I already had was a big plus. I don't know squat about tubes, so I never really questioned this. Telefunken ECC85's were pricey ($127 IIRC), so, to get an idea about what I might expect before purchasing them, I tried some spare 5965's (gulp). Not sure if that was a relevant test, but I like to experiment. I've had them in there for maybe a month and have loved the sound. But if you think it could be harmful, I'll gladly return to the '64 RCA's I got from you - they're quite nice - and maybe reconsider the TFK ECC85's.

Whadaya think? Cease & desist? Is the danger to the tubes, tube life, amp, or all? Also, I don't recall: have you tried TFK ECC85's in your hybrid?

Thanks H,
Craig

heiney9

But the 5965 isn't like a 12AT7. I would just caution you since you are subbing a sub.

ECC85 is a totally different tube, needing a 6V heater. You really shouldn't mess around too much if you don't understand the different ratings of the tubes.

Worse case senario is a dead unit and/or dead tubes.

You are using 12V tubes (5965) where there is only a 6V heater. You can damage a lot of things as the current draw as well voltage draw is very different.

The version that uses the 12AX7/ECC83 might be able to use 12AT7's. But the unit like yours that uses the 6N1/6AQ8/ECC85 can't.

the 12 and the 6 in the tube label has to do with heater voltage 6V and 12V aren't compatible without modification at the tube socket and perhaps a resistor or two. You are drawing twice the voltage at the heater using the 5965 which requires 12V for the heater.

H9

vcwatkins

Thanks. Easy enough - I'll yank those guys out right now and stick to ECC85's.

I looked around for what I read that originally misled me. Don't think this was it, but this page says it's ok to switch out.
http://www.rebel-audio.com.tw/rebel/frest/20070801/MP5.htm

I had a flashback for second there of saying something idiotic to my physics professor and his incredulous stare (and remembered why I dropped physics for accounting) :redface:

Thanks H!

heiney9

There are versions of that unit (think the british labeled Fatman and some Dared MP-5) that do use 12AX7's. But if your's specifies the 6N1, which is a Chinese tube, then the only direct subs are 6N1P from Russia and the 6AQ8/ECC85.

Look on ebay for some 6N1P-EV's. They are plentiful, cheap and have a nice robust sound. I used to have spare pairs but I sold them and kept some for myself. The older the better; late 60's is hard to find but lot's of 70's tube are available all the way through current.

If you need help deciding on those I can help.

H9

vcwatkins

Thanks. Looking at ECC85 recs for my unit just now. Apparently there a LOT of dumb-asses like me using 12A*7's in the 6N1 units. LOL. I'm now pretty sure all this originated from Dared though I can't find it. No info currently on the MP5 and I haven't tried the archive search.

I put the '67 Siemens RCA 's back in. Forgot how much I loved the warmth and fullness of keys from this tube. I'm gonna call these "George Winstons" and leave them for a bit, while I watch for deals on Telefunken's.

Sorry, CCNJ, to have carried on off-topic, but I do appreciate the help and it seemed easier to just wrap it up here.

Cheers!
Craig

nspindel

Don't mean to keep bringing up the MC-7P in the SL2000a thread, but it's sort of on topic. Brock, can you think of any reason why I shouldn't be able to use one of those T-funk long plates I got in place of the single 12AT7 in the pre-amp stage of the MC-7P? Can the 5965 be used in place of the 12AT7 in general? Or is it case by case, with it working in the SL2000a but maybe not elsewhere?