specialty cables...placebo effect or not

steveinaz

I've struggled with this issue for nearly 30 yrs as I'm a "hard sell" on something that you can't show me numbers or concrete evidence. I've made the switch-back several times on speaker cables, from your typical heavy-gauge mutli-stand OFC to "specialty" cable products from Kimber, AudioQuest, Analysis Plus, etc, etc.

Keep in mind I'm frugal, and usually base my purchases on facts or at least landslide approval--but I gotta tell you that I immediately (no "ear" burn-in) noticed an improvement when I made my FINAL switch-back from Monster 10awg to the AudioQuest Granite speaker cable. The music was immediately more organized, grainless, and expansive. Also keep in mind that I got these Granites at a clearance price, so I'm not trying to justify a purchase. And to further support my findings, I also tried AudioQuest Type 4, and preferred the MC 10awg in this comparison.

What does this all say? There must be a difference in tonality with speaker cables--I know what some of you are thinking..."voo-doo **** is more like it" I sympathize, as I was part of that camp for many years, and still believe there is alot of voo-doo **** going on in the aftermarket cable industry. I still believe that you reach a "point of diminishing returns." I felt incredibly stupid paying $268 for my 10' pair of Granites, and wouldn't pay much more than this for ANY speaker cable--regardless how "esoteric" it is.

My point? I think a cables fundamental "design" has far more to do with its ability to accurately transfer the signal from the amp to the speakers than do super-exotic materials.

What are your opinions on this whole cable issue?

dcarlson

I consider cables a component in themselves, from speaker, interconnect and power cords. They all have an impact on system performance. All you need to do is try a different cable, if it changes the performance in your system for the better or worse you've witnessed how it change a system. The trick is to find cables that work for your system.

Duffman

Very contentious topic. I'm of the opinion that high end cable technology is, for the most part, a bunch of hooey.

Any "features" beyond the basics (good shielding, solid connectors, etc.) rapidly turn into diminishing returns. Things like cables with batteries attached (e.g. Audioquest Mont blanc) and cables that claim a "directional flow".

There's a great article called "Top Ten Signs an Audio Cable Vendor is Selling You Snake Oil " at the link below in which they really expose the boutique cable vendors as empty marketing hype machines.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/Audio-Cable-Vendor.html

F1nut

I'll echo Mr. Carlson's statement. I have heard the difference and that's all that matters to me.

Duffman, have you tried high-end cables for yourself? As they say, don't believe everything you read.

Hearing is believing!

dcarlson

If your components have a removable power cord, try an after market one. It's pretty astonishing. Try it and see.

Although if your components are of poor quality, i'm sure some better cables could very well reveal the weaknesses in your system. That's the bad part and the cables could get the unjustified bad rap.

steveinaz

Originally posted by Duffman
Any "features" beyond the basics (good shielding, solid connectors, etc.) rapidly turn into diminishing returns. Things like cables with batteries attached (e.g. Audioquest Mont blanc) and cables that claim a "directional flow".

This is my belief as well. I'll pay good money for a very high quality well constructed proven design, but NOT for "virgin copper extracted from South American caves, then cryogenically treated after being smathered in the rarest of elephant ****."

LOL...damn, made myself laugh on that one.

F1nut

Originally posted by steveinaz
then cryogenically treated after being smathered in the rarest of elephant ****."

GOLD Jerry GOLD!!!

steveinaz

Originally posted by dcarlson
...Although if your components are of poor quality, i'm sure some better cables could very well reveal the weaknesses in your system. That's the bad part and the cables could get the unjustified bad rap.

Absolutely agree on that. I think far too many audiophiles try to cure problems caused by cheap source equipment, by spending 3 times more on the cable than they did on the CD Player. They get really frustrated after they've spent big-bucks, to find the problem is even more pronounced.

I'm a firm believer in spending your bucks on top-shelf equipment first, then, and only then experiment with high-end cables--if necessary.

Personally, and this is only my opinion, reference to interconnects--if you have to spend more than $75 on pair of interconnects--you've got problems up-stream. There are wonderful interconnect cables in the $35-$75 dollar range. Reference to speaker cable--more than $500 a 10' pair, again you've got basic components that aren't measuring up, or don't work well together as a system.

dcarlson

Of course, I have my limits as well and believe in diminishing returns.

Duffman

Originally posted by F1nut

Duffman, have you tried high-end cables for yourself? As they say, don't believe everything you read.

Hearing is believing!

I have indeed. Just recently I replaced my $40 monster subwoofer cable with a $12.99 Radio Shack cable. The difference? None. Now maybe someone with "audiophile" hearing abilities would hear something but my close, civilian listening reveals nothing. Care to guess what the margins are on a $200 1 meter cable?



I've attached an excerpt from a article written way back in 1999 by Roy Furchgott and puclished in the New York times:

<snip>
Polk Audio, a well respected manufacturer of loudspeakers in Baltimore, no longer makes cables but declined an invitation to set up a listening test in its laboratories. One reason it gave was that the test could affect relationships with audio stores. "We would be hearing from every retailer in the country," said Paul Dicomo, communications director for Polk Audio. Kerry Moyer, staff director for the Consumer Electronics Association, which represents manufacturers, said accessories were usually the highest markup items, wires included. Sales of high-margin accessories have become critical in the current market, where prices of components like receivers, amplifiers and DVD players, have had profit margins squeezed by competition.

"It becomes a question of where are we going to make a little money?" he said. Mr. Moyer, whose $3,000 sound system uses about $300 worth of cables, said the technological superiority of a cable is not the issue -- it is the perceived value to the hobbyist.

"If someone feels good about buying it, whether it works or it doesn't, it makes them feel good," he said. "I don't think we should question."

John Dunlavy, who manufactures audiophile loudspeakers and wire to go with it, does think questioning is valid. A musician and engineer, Mr. Dunlavy said as an academic exercise he used principles of physics relating to transmission line and network theory to produce a high-end cable. "People ask if they will hear a difference, and I tell them no," he said.

Mr. Dunlavy has often gathered audio critics in his Colorado Springs lab for a demonstration.

"What we do is kind of dirty and stinky," he said. "We say we are starting with a 12 AWG zip cord, and we position a technician behind each speaker to change the cables out." The technicians hold up fancy-looking cables before they disappear behind the speakers. The critics debate the sound characteristics of each wire. "They describe huge changes and they say, 'Oh my God, John, tell me you can hear that difference,'" Mr. Dunlavy said. The trick is the technicians never actually change the cables, he said, adding, "It's the placebo effect."

<snip>

steveinaz

I've read that article, interesting indeed. I believe he (Dunlavy) also speaks on the "voo-doo" behind bi-wiring (as does Theil), but I'm not even gonna go there.

I think a fair analogy would be:

You have a $300 dollar receiver
You replace that receiver with a seperate $1000 amp
I think most here would agree, you're gonna hear a difference

Now replace that $1000 amp with a $3500 amp
I'm not so sure you're going to hear any difference, especially $2500 worth of difference--at least not to the degree that the first upgrade produced.

Electronic parts are only so expensive, once you break that barrier, you're into materials, strength of construction, MARKUP...ooppsss, did I say that?

dcarlson

Go and try a $200 interconnect, not sub cable. Put them up against a $20 monster interconnect. I know what the result will be. A $20 dollar difference between cables most likely won't make a difference. They're in the same calibre/quality. Jump up into the next level of cable ($100-$200) then you'll hear a difference.

As for margins, this hobby isn't cheap. I know I'm giving up a lot cash to my local Audio shop and I'm happy to do so when I get results. I've spent a lot of money on my components and the only way I can get the full performance out of them is to feed them the proper cables.

Quote as many articles as you want, until you try it, you'll never know.

I'll quote someone here, I can't remember who said it.

"People who don't know, don't know they don't know."

dorokusai

That article has been around, its a valid argument. There are as many people that believe in the benefits of high end, as there are disbelievers. Its a moot subject that will never be solved by all the little documents in the world.

I believe in the difference in high end cables. Will I ever spend more than what I feel is appropriate on a set? No, of course not. I have found some cables that I feel, complement my system, AND make me feel good. I demo'd w/ F1Nut, Monster Cable vs MIT, and the difference was VERY noticeable. This same demo was conducted with more than one person afterwards, and there were people that did not notice it as much as others. Why? I don't know. I can't explain it, and honestly I could care less, it was dramatic and improved for me, and thats all that counts.

steveinaz

Quote me on this (partially): "ignorance is bliss...and a heck of alot less expensive"...LMAO.

It's funny, back in my early days of audio I had a little Pioneer SX-780 receiver, CTF-500 tape deck, and HPM-40 speakers. man I was shittin' in tall cotton---I just knew it couldn't get any better.

Then I had to go and learn stuff. My wallets' been hurtin' ever since.

....anybody got an SX-780 they wanna sell?

F1nut

No offense, but the difference between a $40.00 cable and a $12.99 cable is going to be nothing. I'm speaking of the difference between a $40.00 basic cable and a $800.00 high-end cable. Yes, the profit margin on cables is huge, that's why I buy them used.

Case in point, I lent Doro a MIT IC. We listened to his rig with the $40.00 Monster IC, then swapped it out for the MIT, all other things being equal. He and I noticed a difference in the first 10 seconds and he became a believer and has posted a review of this on the forum.

In response to your "snip". I'm sure there are a number of folks who can't hear a difference and a number of folks who fall for the placebo effect, but there are a number of folks that know they hear a difference. You're welcome to stop by for a demo anytime, you bring the basic cables because I don't own any.

As far as audio critics go, I'd group them right up there with lawyers and politicians. Most of them don't know their **** from a hole in the ground.

Duffman

Originally posted by dcarlson
Jump up into the next level of cable ($100-$200) then you'll hear a difference.
"People who don't know, don't know they don't know."

I don't dispute there are audible differences between low end cables and higher quality cables. The subwoofer cable probably wasn't a good example but I think it's representitive within it's category. In other words, in the low end category, a $12 cable performs identically to a $40 cable. I would submit that a $120 cable would sound identical to a $400 cable in the higher end.

Of course as you've pointed out until I actually do back-to-back listening tests, I'm only going on the empirical evidence, which shows no demonstrable benefits between most of the cable "technologies".

I definitely see the hobby/purist factor and, hey, if money was no object I'd spend big $ on all my cables, just in case....

steveinaz

Originally posted by dorokusai
That article has been around, its a valid argument. There are as many people that believe in the benefits of high end, as there are disbelievers. Its a moot subject that will never be solved by all the little documents in the world.

Discussing facts is so boring, though. That's what I like about debating subjective ideas. There is no right or wrong answer, just differing views and theories.

I really wanted my fancy-pants speaker cables to fail, so I could know once and for all, that it is all hype. But they didn't; they made my system sound like I was A/B'ing 2 different speakers--and I am a very skeptical person. The thought that kept crossing my mind as I listened was "it sounds like somebody put a better mid-range driver in my speakers." It was that clear-cut.

But keep the faith, until the electric company replaces all the wiring from the generator to the outlet my system plugs into....I ain't buying no stinkin' AC cables...LMAO!

dcarlson

But keep the faith, until the electric company replaces all the wiring from the generator to the outlet my system plugs into....I ain't buying no stinkin' AC cables...LMAO!

Oh man, you don't know what you're missing. If you can replace a stock Power cord, you'd be surprised how much extra detail comes through. I was very skeptical up until a couple of weeks ago. I knew the benefits of quality speaker wire and interconnects. IMO, the power cord I connected to my integrated made the most noticeable improvement to my system so far (although it did cost more than my speaker wire and interconnects). I'm guessing it's because my integrated has the pre, power and phono stage all in one box and was getting choked by the original.

BTW, Duffman, great name. Oohh Yeaahh!

steveinaz

I might have to check that out, but I will definitely make that a DIY project.

I did replace my stock 14/16awg cords with some nice 12awg cords I had here in the warehouse. We get alot of expensive HP spectrum analyzers and they sometimes ship with extra power cords, very good quality/heavy gauge. I can't say wether they made a difference or not.

dorokusai

Steve - I agree, I am also skeptical...but that didn't last long. I certainly have a cutoff for expenses, because the cable stuff goes way too far. I have seen some truly kooky things that are for sale on the internet, its madness for sure.

Dcarlson - I upgraded my TV's cable with the SC Digital Cord and really didn't notice anything. That is not to say that there wont be replacements for the other stuff where applicable....I just like the way they look, let alone if I get bonus performance from them.

dcarlson

I went with a Signal Cable Power cord although it may be a decent cable, it really didn't mate well with my system. It sounded different, but not better IMO. Picked up a Cardas Cross and boy has it done a great job. Do I suggest the Cardas? Sure, but I'd try out as many brands and models as I could. I'm testing a Cardas Quadlink on my CD player that's far better than stock however so far it's not giving me the results I'm looking for. I'm sitting on about 150 hours of burning in, so we'll see if it opens up any more. If it doesn't, it's going back and a new search begins.

dcarlson

Dcarlson - I upgraded my TV's cable with the SC Digital Cord and really didn't notice anything. That is not to say that there wont be replacements for the other stuff where applicable....I just like the way they look, let alone if I get bonus performance from them.

Pure coincidence that you would mention SC. I didn't see your post until after I posted mine. Whoa...;)

Tour2ma

Gosh, we haven't had a good, old-fashioned wire discussion in months. All these posts and so far no one has sited the infamous Stereo Review, double blind, A-B-X test. As with the "test" mentioned by Duffman, this was a speaker wire showdown.

"X" was either A or B. Which was chosen to be "X" for a given segment was a random choice. The test set up was a utilized relays at both ends of the wire runs, allowing the listener to instantly choose and hear A, B, or X through the same electronics and speakers. The listener's charge was to determine whether X was A or B.

Proper selection of A or B matching X was not statistically different from chance (guessing). Thus the test "failed to reject" the null hypothesis that A and B were equals (not the conclusion presented, but the only one statistics will bear out).

It's an old test from the early days of "high-wire" that is unlikely to be repeated, if for no other reason that the advertising dollars for high-wire have increased considerably and the test rig is a bit sophisticated for an individual. Were it duplicated, it would be interesting to see if today’s wire did stand out.

But that's speaker wire, of which I am a skeptic. Can't say the same for IC's. Never have seen a scientific test of IC's or power cords. Just makes more sense to me that wire construction, purity, etc. is more critical in transferring lower current/ voltage signals.

As for power cords.... strikes me it's possible as dc indicated "choking" occurs. Would follow that the Cardas Cross on his MF (correct, dc?) would have more impact than the Quadlink on a source component...

As for measurements that distinguish one wire from another, Frank over at Signal Cable sites them. He believes in them enough to have scrapped an IC upgrade he was working on because he could not produce a measurable difference.

4_everyman

Originally posted by dcarlson
If your components have a removable power cord, try an after market one. It's pretty astonishing. Try it and see.

OK, i'm willing to give that a try. Any suggestions what to buy and where to buy it from?
Rgds,
--Pete

steveinaz

Have you priced aftermarket power cords? Sheesh. You should build a "Do-it-yourself" cord first, and see if you think the advantages justify the costs involved.

There are a vast number of DIY sites for cable building of all kinds. Try those for tips and ideas.

4_everyman

Originally posted by steveinaz
Have you priced aftermarket power cords? Sheesh. You should build a "Do-it-yourself" cord first, and see if you think the advantages justify the costs involved.

There are a vast number of DIY sites for cable building of all kinds. Try those for tips and ideas.

No, Steve, i haven't priced them. That rough, huh?
I guess i could go the DIY route. My first job in this crazy business was soldering discrete components to circuit boards for powered wheelchairs back in the mid 70s.
Rgds,
--Pete

dorokusai

The Signal Cable brand is cheap enough to make DIY, just a matter of choice. If you want to say you made it yourself, well, go crazy.

F1nut

I highly recommend PS Audio Statement power cords, here....http://www.psaudio.com/products/xstream_power.asp

You can find some good deals on new & used ones on Audiogon.

dcarlson

Yup, they are expensive.

The Cardas Cross is staying on my integrated and doing a wonderful job.

I'm taking the Cardas Quadlink back. I had it hooked up to my Rotel CD player and F1, you were right it did have a slight veiling to it. But was still miles ahead of the stock cord, just not exactly what I'm looking for.

danger boy

show of hands.. who is here is willing to spend $800 on a interconnect cable.. doesn't matter the length either. is that one $800 cable going to put your other cables to shame? You obviously can't replace all your IC's with those right?

Just doesn't make sense to me to blow that kind of money on cables. Does an $800 cable make a bad system sound better? :rolleyes:

I guesss i'm in the middle when it comes to IC's. While me spending $80 on a IXOS 2m cable would make some people shriek, other folks would consider it a entry level cable.

I tend to limit my spending on one pair of IC's to $100 tops. Whether it's a .5meter silver wire or a 2m middle of the road one.

I would like to audition a 2m pair of Kimber Hero's though.

dcarlson

When you're talking 2m you ARE going to pay a premium. Why 2m? I'm sure you've explained it before, I just can't recall.

$800 is too rich for me. I think I'll top out at around $300.

There has to be a sweet spot of value vs performance. Personally, I think the Hero's are a very good performer at a modest price. At the time I bought them, they were out my price range. Now, I have better components and in the future I will be looking for a new set of I/Cs.

The way I see it, why spend $1500 on a new amp to get to the next level of performance when I can still gain improvements by upgrading cables that will cost me $300. It doesn't have the WOW factor of a new component but improvements are improvements, right?