Which receiver (Pioneer or Yamaha) for LSi-15

brentba

EndersShadow wrote: »

Interesting, they never carried them here in Indiana or the Midwest from what I ever saw. Must be a regional thing.

Not all Best Buy stores have a Magnolia section, so that may be why you never saw them. There are two stores in close proximity to one another here in south jersey and only one of them has a Magnolia section with slightly higher priced gear. None of them carry true high-end stuff, but they're at least breaking the surface with brands like Definitive, Martin Logan (lower end line) and the higher end Polk gear.

EndersShadow

brentba wrote: »

Not all Best Buy stores have a Magnolia section, so that may be why you never saw them. There are two stores in close proximity to one another here in south jersey and only one of them has a Magnolia section with slightly higher priced gear. None of them carry true high-end stuff, but they're at least breaking the surface with brands like Definitive, Martin Logan (lower end line) and the higher end Polk gear.

Even the Magnolia sections here didnt carry them as thats the only part of the store I normally look at .

cfrizz

11tsteve wrote: »

its not that it will kill anything, its that it could kill something. it is not controversial, it is conventional wisdom... that when you overload an amp, it will overheat. and that if you try and drive a speaker like the LSi with an underpowered amp, and try to acheive loud volume levels you risk clipping the amp and most like killing your tweeters.
its not that you shouldn't use your AVR, but you need to exercise caution.

This pretty much sums it up. With the exception of Ravenli, you have been given good advice. You now know the risks and the posssible outcome. It's your gear, & money, have at it and good luck.

ravaneli

11tsteve wrote: »

its not that it will kill anything, its that it could kill something. it is not controversial, it is conventional wisdom... that when you overload an amp, it will overheat. and that if you try and drive a speaker like the LSi with an underpowered amp, and try to acheive loud volume levels you risk clipping the amp and most like killing your tweeters.
its not that you shouldn't use your AVR, but you need to exercise caution.

you know, technically everything you wrote is right but you use it to create the wrong impression. IF you overload an amp THEN hell breaks lose. But what you fail to provide is why listening to the speakers at normal levels will overload the amp of the avr. There is some ungodly fear of 4 ohm speakers around here, just terrifies and paralyzes everyone.

brentba

Allow me to sum up this thread (since I started it) and add a few additional comments:

--My original question was which receiver would be better for the LSi's -- the Yamaha or the Pioneer -- recognizing that both are far from ideal while awaiting the purchase of an appropriate amplifier. As I expected would happen, my original question was not initially answered and instead the thread was turned into a debate about whether it is even SAFE to use either receiver.
--Some replies have suggested that using the proposed speaker/receiver combination has good chance of being damaging to the speakers or receiver, or possibly even to my house.
--Some replies have suggested that damage is possible, but unlikely at modest listening levels
--Some replies have suggested that damage is extremely unlikely and I shouldn't worry about it all as long as I'm not trying to push the receiver beyond its capabilities.
--Some replies finally answered my initial question and suggested that the Yamaha would be better (thanks!)

I'm still waiting to hear some real world examples of an LSi speaker being damaged by, or causing damage to, a modern A/V receiver when used properly and not abused.

I think that no such examples exist -- but PLEASE feel free to prove me wrong -- you guys are the experts!

I recognize that, mathematically speaking, damage could result from "overloading" an amplifier. But if I'm to believe that this is a real world concern, I need some real world examples.

This thread obviously has gone way beyond it's originally intended purpose, but I think it's important that we provide everyone (including myself) with some of these real world examples so that anyone who is even thinking about powering a Polk LSi speaker with an A/V receiver will have sufficient reason to abstain from such a dangerous practice. Fear based on a theory seems a bit irrational.

I'm not trying to create controversy -- just some dynamic, intelligent conversation with evidence to back up our claims.

drselect

Brentba welcome to CP.

You could always try hooking each of the AVs up separately and see what one you thinks sounds better when paired with the LSI.
Personally I like pioneer products over yamaha.

brentba

I came across an excellent article today on the audioholics website. It's long and technical, but a very informative read and very applicable to the issues being discussed in this thread:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/impedance-selector-switch-1

Enjoy

brentba

Here's another relevant article from the same website. Much shorter than the above article:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/frequently-asked-questions/connecting-4-ohm-speakers-to-an-8-ohm-receiver-or-amplifier

nguyendot

Why not just get an amp? Or hook it up? You push the issue but aren't taking any action. Me? SC35 if I don't want to run an amp, otherwise Rotel RMB-1095, Parasound HCA-1205a, Threshold CAS2, Yamaha MX1000u, Adcom 555, or the Marantz MA500 monoblocks I just picked up 20 minutes ago. All 4 ohm stable, all ready to kill either receiver you're asking about using.

brentba

nguyendot wrote: »

Why not just get an amp? Or hook it up? You push the issue but aren't taking any action. Me? SC35 if I don't want to run an amp, otherwise Rotel RMB-1095, Parasound HCA-1205a, Threshold CAS2, Yamaha MX1000u, Adcom 555, or the Marantz MA500 monoblocks I just picked up 20 minutes ago. All 4 ohm stable, all ready to kill either receiver you're asking about using.

I'm sorry, but I think you may be missing the point of the discussion. Even though it wasn't the original intention of my starting this thread, I am trying to answer the question of whether or not using an A/V receiver such as the Yamaha RX-V867 with the LSi speakers poses any real world risk or is this just all irrational fear based on a theory of what could happen.

Of course buying an external amp is the best option and I plan to do so in the future. It is not the money that is preventing me from buying an external amplifier. I could easily run out today and purchase a pair of LSi-15s for every room in the house with a dedicated amplifier for each and not think twice about it. The reason I do not want to buy an amplifier right now is because I wasn't planning on buying new speakers in the first place -- I was simply taking advantage of an excellent deal and I am not going to buy a new amp right now regardless of how much money is sitting in my savings account.

And I'm not sure what you mean by saying "you push the issue, but aren't taking any action."

Your remarks are inflammatory and in no way contributory.

Now please provide me with an example of the "forest fire" of which you speak.

Thanks

F1nut

JHC, just hook up either of your AVR's to your LSi 15's, turn up the volume and find out for yourself what happens. There's your real world expereince, the only kind that really matters.

brentba

F1nut wrote: »

JHC, just hook up either of your AVR's to your LSi 15's, turn up the volume and find out for yourself what happens. There's your real world expereince, the only kind that really matters.

Tempers flare when pressed for facts, I see.

I think all my questions have been answered in one way or another

Thank you.

F1nut

No, my tolerance for someone like you is extremely low. You ask questions, don't like the answers, demand proof and yet are unwilling to do the simplest of things, which is try it for yourself.

F1nut

Not to mention your research skills are lacking. Right here on Polk's site you will find the following....

Look for power ratings lower than 8-ohm loads. (Ohms are a measure of the electrical resistance of the speaker.) Ideally, the amp should be able to pump at least 50% more power into a 4-ohm load than it would into an 8-ohm load. If there is no 4-ohm power rating quoted, chances are that the amp will not drive a 4-ohm speaker. Almost all speakers are less than 8-ohms for some part of the frequency range (impedance varies with frequency) and many fine speakers are 4-ohm speakers. Get a receiver that can safely and robustly drive a 4-ohm speaker.

ravaneli

his AVR is rated at 4 ohm, i don't understand the point of your post, finut. But then I rarely understand your points so ..

tonyb

Brentba,
Lets keep it real man. First off, your not the first one with these questions and surely won't be the last. Some of the former people with the same questions who didn't take our advice usually post a thread a month later asking why their tweeter is making a certain noise, or why their receiver went into protect mode. Listen to those with experience, isn't that one reason why you came here anyway ? Most receivers will have a hard time with a 4 ohm load, like I said before, keep the volume down until you get an amp. It's your coin in the end, do what you will. Just for me personally, spending the coin on speakers and not takeing the proper precautions to power them correctly seems silly.....to put all that in harms way. Wouldn't you agree ?

brentba

ravaneli wrote: »

his AVR is rated at 4 ohm, i don't understand the point of your post, finut. But then I rarely understand your points so ..

I don't have the speakers yet. I just ordered them two days ago. I can't try it for myself right now, but I certainly will when they arrive next week.

Not to mention your research skills are lacking. Right here on Polk's site you will find the following....

I found the information (linked above) from the audioholics website more convincing than that which you have quoted from Polk's website.

And I'm not "demanding proof," just a little evidence.

Sorry, this thread has taken a downward turn. I guess it's my fault.

F1nut

ravaneli wrote: »

his AVR is rated at 4 ohm, i don't understand the point of your post, finut. But then I rarely understand your points so ..

No surprises there, you don't understand anything about audio, so why would you understand what I write about it.

F1nut

brentba wrote: »

I don't have the speakers yet. I just ordered them two days ago. I can't try it for myself right now, but I certainly will when they arrive next week.

Your very first post reads to me as though you already have the speakers.....

I decided to take advantage of Polk's ebay store deal and purchase a pair of refurbished LSi-15's. Wasn't really in the market for new speakers right now, but I've always enjoyed the LSi series so I decided it was hard to pass them up at $850/pair.

So, I apologize for jumping the gun on you trying things for yourself.

F1nut

I found the information (linked above) from the audioholics website more convincing than that which you have quoted from Polk's website.

From your linked article.....

Receivers: Most midfi Receivers may have problems adequately driving a 4 ohm load. However, many of the better Receivers today have a large enough power supply, heat sink area, and current capability in the amp sections to handle 4 ohm loads. You are usually safe running these speakers on the Flagship Receiver models from: {Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo, Harman Kardon, NAD, Nakamichi).

and the one from Polk say the same thing.

brentba

F1nut wrote: »

Your very first post reads to me as though you already have the speakers.....



So, I apologize for jumping the gun on you trying things for yourself.

No worries. I understand why you would have been a little annoyed with me if you were under the impression that I already had the speakers. I guess I never really did make it clear that I did not have them yet.

And I apologize for pressing a little too hard and pushing everyone's buttons. A little heated debate is good for the soul every now and then, I guess.

I suppose we can all agree on two things at this point:
--The Yamaha receiver is probably the better of the two options initially presented, while both are far from ideal.
--The performance of the LSi line will be much better with an external amp and much worse with an A/V receiver (obviously, nothing new here) and I should purchase an external amplifier in the near future if I wish to get the most out of my new speakers
--Although there is a potential for damage to either the speakers or the A/V receiver, the likelihood of damage occuring is unlikely if appropriate caution is exercised.
--I should get back to work and stop spending so much time on this forum today.

Have a good night, everyone. Thanks for the conversation.

nguyendot

brentba wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I think you may be missing the point of the discussion. Even though it wasn't the original intention of my starting this thread, I am trying to answer the question of whether or not using an A/V receiver such as the Yamaha RX-V867 with the LSi speakers poses any real world risk or is this just all irrational fear based on a theory of what could happen.

Of course buying an external amp is the best option and I plan to do so in the future. It is not the money that is preventing me from buying an external amplifier. I could easily run out today and purchase a pair of LSi-15s for every room in the house with a dedicated amplifier for each and not think twice about it. The reason I do not want to buy an amplifier right now is because I wasn't planning on buying new speakers in the first place -- I was simply taking advantage of an excellent deal and I am not going to buy a new amp right now regardless of how much money is sitting in my savings account.

And I'm not sure what you mean by saying "you push the issue, but aren't taking any action."

Your remarks are inflammatory and in no way contributory.

Now please provide me with an example of the "forest fire" of which you speak.

Thanks

Wow if you really want to take my remarks word for word, and really believe a forest fire will start from it, you need to go get a dose of reality. Cigarettes and lightning cause forest fires, buddy.

Yes, I have seen people toast their receivers running 4 ohm loads. I toasted my M-45 amplifier running a set of MMG-Ws...and it was rated for 4 ohms. Do I keep a blog or pictographical record of all this? No, but I tell you your receiver will run very hot, and heat kills things. Amps, hard drives, bad cooking, and the wife's ugly hairdo. Just because you can tow your boat with your miata because you somehow fitted a tow hitch on it, and the manual doesn't specifically state you shouldn't...doesn't mean it's going to do well on that downhill grade for very long.

PolkieMan

What's wrong with the Onkyo's? My 808 has been great.

http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-NR809-Certified-7-2-Channel-Receiver/dp/B00505F01E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1342737811&sr=8-1&keywords=onkyo+tx+nr+809

nguyendot

PolkieMan wrote: »

What's wrong with the Onkyo's? My 808 has been great.

http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-NR809-Certified-7-2-Channel-Receiver/dp/B00505F01E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1342737811&sr=8-1&keywords=onkyo+tx+nr+809

All the ones after the 805 went downhill. They run way too hot, and the video chip is known for failing randomly. I had the 807 and myself had no problems, but it did run very hot and many other people had negative experiences. I traded mine for an iPad3 recently

brentba

nguyendot,

I know you didn't literally mean "forest fire."

Sorry if I offended some people. I didn't mean to. I just wanted to be sure the information I was getting was accurate.

11tsteve

i'm sorry, this is no longer relevant to the thread, but i have been working all day and just wanted to clear the air.

you have misinterpreted my statement. there is not ungodly fear of 4 ohm as you put it, and i never said he would overload the amp by merely hooking it up. i was just saying exercise caution and don't run the volume at 12 o'clock. don't overload the amp.

sorry this is superfluous to the thread by now....

other than when i was young and stupid, i both smoked an amp and fried many a tweeter doing just what we are talking about. it doesn't have to be an LSi, and not everyone posts everything on the internet, but it doesn't mean the people here don't know what they are talking about.

Ducati Guy

Brentba,
So let me tell you about my 1st month @ my Lsi15's and trying it out @ a brand new AVR(Onkyo 709):
The overall soundquality was "good". But the AVR shut itself down 4 times the 1st month because of overheating and/or the speakers demanding too much current from the AVR. Now the volume wasn't crazy high, it was only at moderate listening levels. But what I think really caused the AVR to shut down was the Length of time of Use, the receiver shut itself down all 4 times after about 5 hours of continuous use(so probably just too much current demand over time overworking the receiver). So I returned the AVR to Crutchfield(who by the way Has a Great 60 day Return policy). The Onkyo has specific power ratings at 8 and 6 ohms, but not 4 ohms.
So I decided to invest the money and buy an Integrated amp @ a 4 ohm power rating.
Bought a Creek Destiny 2 Integrated Amp, " >180watts@4ohms ", a British mag measured it at 200watts into 4 ohms. That was 11 months ago and it has never had to shut itself down for any reason, even with days of 7 hours of continuous use(lots of movie trilogy days). Also, the integrated amp does sound 1-2 steps better overall.
Looking back on my experience I think that the EXpensive top of the line AVR's, like the 55-lb Onkyo 5009 would drive the LSI's well, but they cost as much as expensive Integrateds and Separates.
So that was my story.

sponger

While we're on this subject, I want some clarification too if no one minds. I understand that low ohm loads will stress an amplifier. But if a receiver has an impedance selector, does that not mean that the receiver is actually adding more impedance to the load before it hits the amp? In which case, does that not thereby reduce the stress on the amp?

nguyendot

sponger wrote: »

While we're on this subject, I want some clarification too if no one minds. I understand that low ohm loads will stress an amplifier. But if a receiver has an impedance selector, does that not mean that the receiver is actually adding more impedance to the load before it hits the amp? In which case, does that not thereby reduce the stress on the amp?

No, generally it limits the current.

F1nut

But if a receiver has an impedance selector, does that not mean that the receiver is actually adding more impedance to the load before it hits the amp? In which case, does that not thereby reduce the stress on the amp?

It reduces/restricts current and in turn, the dynamics.....not good.