Tsi100s and subwoofer?

PeterR

Hello all. I'm very new to hi-fi and mid-fi, having just purchased a pair of Polk Tsi100s as my first set of "real" speakers, and have a question about how a subwoofer would help their performance. Every review I've read of the Tsi100s says they're great, but even better with a subwoofer. But, I'm confused about something. I definitely DON'T want booming, earth-shaking bass; we have young kids and never really play music too loud anyway--just at a low to middling level of volume. The sound I prefer is tight, punchy bass, with clearly defined bass notes as opposed to deafening or room-rattling tones. Would a subwoofer help clean up and define the bass, or are they used mostly to achieve a thumping, room-filling type of sound?

So basically, if I get a subwoofer, will it give me tighter bass even at lower volumes, or would I be wasting my money unless I want a big, booming bass sound?

I'm using the speakers with an Onkyo TX-8255 two-channel receiver, for music only, so I'm not concerned about the bass parts in movies or anything like that.

Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated. Thanks.

pyrocyborg

Hi!

Well I started a little bit in the same way than you do: two bookshelf speakers for a music only setup (occasionnal HT duties, likle 5% of the time). I first bought the Polk RTi4 (step up from your speakers, but from an older generation). Definetly, the speakers themselves can be punchy at time, but adding a subwoofer did them a favor, giving the overall sound a warmer touch.

I then upgraded to Polk RTi6 (bigger bookshelf) and my low-end Polk PSW10 sub wasn't even needed anymore because this sub didn't go lower than 35 or 40 Hz (the RTi6 were able to go as low as 45 hz, so I didn't lose that much). I bring them back to the store and gave the RTi4 and the Sub to my mother.

Then, when I steped to the Polk LSi7, bass wasn't as great due to the smaller drivers but to be honest, I listened to my LSi7 like that for 4 months, and I bought a new sub yesterday. I opted for a small musical sub which don't go as low as bigger ones, but that can offer a tight and visceral feeling (instead of wall-shacking): The REL T-3. However, I think that this particular sub might be overkill for a pair of TSi100...

Now, the sound "feels" fuller, even at lower volume. As I have a large room, I can't get pounding bass at lower volumes, but still, it helps giving the tone a warmer feeling. Overall, a sub is not needed but is a welcomed upgrade, even if you do not like to listen at high volume. My room isn't even optimal, and the benefits are well worth the price IMO.

Keep in consideration that most low-end subwoofers (150$-) are for HT duties and might give a boomier sound than expected. You can tweek it and adjust the volume to keep it optimal. Will it make your TSi sounds like 500$ speaker? I don't think so, but it could make them sound like a small tower speaker... and on the "plus" side, a pair of bookshelf speakers paired with a subwoofer can compete with most towers of the same range if they are properly positionned, and they require less amplifier power (because the subwoofer has it's own).

PeterR

Thanks so much for the response. In your opinion, what would be the minimum I'd have to spend to get a decent subwoofer that would match up well with the Tsi100s, and can you recommend any in particular? Would the PSW10 be a good fit, or would it be one of the "boomy" type subs?

pyrocyborg

No problem, and welcome by the way!

In music, as in anything, you'll find conflicting opinions here and there and bass makes no exception. There is no definite answer as it all comes to taste, but as you're clearly not one of those "louder is better" person, I can say that if you have a limited budget the PSW10 might be a good fit and I didn't find boomy at all. Flat might be a better word to qualify it when compared to pricier subs (i.e. each lower frequencie do not sound that different from each other), but for the price, it get the job's done.

Also, keep in mind that contrary to what some people might believe, it's not important to "brand-match" the sub and the speakers: Polk subs are good, but nothing spectacular. If you're not that picky, they'll probably do the job well, but there may be other options (while pricier than the PSW10) that will give an overall better sound.

As for any recommendation, I have not at the moment but someone else will for sure. Do you have any electronic store near you where you could buy and try a particular subwoofer, and return if it's not what you expected? I mean, we could write anything here, but listening and feeling the bass in your home is the only way to be sure of anything. A budget would help us recommend you something though...

If you can find some discounted Velodyne VX-10, it might be great too (@Fry's?).

PeterR

The only place close to me that has any kind of audio selection is Best Buy, but they have a limited selection. Maybe I'll head down there and give one or two of them a try. If anyone has a recommendation on a good, low-cost, small subwoofer available anywhere else, I'd be happy to hear that, too. At the moment I'd like to keep the budget under $200--if that's possible.

And thanks again, I really do appreciate the help.

pyrocyborg

Hey again!

Take a look at Vann's . I do not know much about stores in the US, but here's a link for a VX-11, a good rated little sub : http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/549356948/velodyne-vx-11 .

As I said, most 150$- and even sub 400$ subwoofers are for HT duties first, but they will help a lot in music. To really get a glimpse of a "musical" sub (i.e. tight, fast, not overwhelming, can blend perfectly with your main speakers), you need to step up to 550-600$ MSRP subwoofers that manufacturers describe as subwoofers made for music and seriously, for your particular setup, it would be overkill. I mean, I have no problem paying 450$ for a subwoofer when my speakers cost the same. However, pairing a 500$ with 100-150$ worth of speakers might be a no-no... Subwoofers are there to support or relieve the Speakers, not to overthrow them.

Anyways, with Vann's, if you're not satisfied within 30 days, you'll only pay shipping back. In some case, it may cost less that way that driving to another town.

PeterR

Thanks again for the recommendations. Do you know anything one way or another on the Yamaha YST-SW012? I can find it local, not too expensive, and it would fit where I need to put it.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

cnh

Welcome to Club Polk!

Need a cheap 8" sub to fill out the bottom (smaller drivers are often faster for music if you don't push them to do extremely LOW frequencies).


Are you in the U.S? Check out the Dayton Audio subs at Partsexpress.com

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-627

Good Luck!

cnh

pyrocyborg

The YST-SW012 might be enough for a very small room, but people seems to be happy with it. However, as every review, we got to consider more than the ratings: most people seems to use it with low-end gear or a soundbar. Other than that, it can't be a bad buy.

However, I agree with cnh : that Dayton Audio Sub might be a no brainer for starters.

D_M

PeterR,

There is a thread over on AVSforum called "List of Budget Subwoofers (300 and less)". The BIC F12 and Energy S10.3 appear to be the front runners. You might want to take a look at the thread, then see if someone is selling one of those on e-bay. The energy is on newegg for a few dollars over your budget. BIC 12s are on Amazon for under your budget, but it depends on whether you grab the forward or down-firing version of the Sub. Good luck!!!!

PeterR

Thanks for all the great information, everyone. I'm going to look at all of the options you mentioned. I might go with the Yamaha because it fits underneath a bench in the room, but I am tempted by the Dayton and the Bic.

I wish I found this forum a long time ago; everyone's been a lot of help and I really appreciate it.

PeterR

Still on the fence about which sub, but I also just have a quick question for pyrocyborg--how much of a step up are the Lsi7s from the Tsi100s? I mean, how noticeable is the difference? Also, would my receiver (Onkyo TX-8255, 50 wpc) be able to drive them? I have an opportunity to trade up, and not sure what to do. Thanks.

ravaneli

just don't get a ported rub. Bad thing is, there are no good cheap sealed subs. At least I don't know of a single one under 300.

Additionally look for higher sensitivity.. they tend to be lighter and faster and have better detail. You can make yourself a cheap sub but there is no cheap way to power it. I could go in more detail, but if you are new you are not gona go that way.

Just look for a sealed sub, used if u have to. They sound much tighter and cleaner

jimbo1421

I reviewed the TSi100s two years ago (http://www.polkaudio.com/products/tsi100#reviews) and thought they were an excellent value in a budget music system when paired with my PSW10, borrowed from my old SurroundBar rig. Very musical for jazz and classical. Without a sub the lows seemed hollow. To really rock the joint you would probably want something bigger. Boominess in a sub can be controlled by room placement and adjusting the volume control on the sub to get a good balance. A refurbished PSW10 can be had for about $100 at Polk's eBay store (http://stores.ebay.com/Polk-Audio-Direct/Home-Audio-/_i.html?_fsub=153926419&_sid=686154689&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322).

The LSi7 would definitely be a step up (although I have not heard them myself) but these are rated 4 ohm nominal impedance and require an amp or receiver rated to work at 4 ohms. Your Onkyo TX-8255 is not and may overheat at such a low impedance. So a new amp would be required and then you are no longer in budget territory.

I would just get a sub and enjoy your current setup for a while. Hang out here for tips on setup and get to know what you like and dislike about your system and then what upgrades make sense.

Jim

Correction: Your Onkyo TX-8255 is listed as "4 ohm capable", but this may mean that they use current limiters to prevent overheating. Not a great solution but if you don't push the LSi7s too hard they may sound fine. You would probably still want a sub.

hertz9753

PeterR wrote: »

Still on the fence about which sub, but I also just have a quick question for pyrocyborg--how much of a step up are the Lsi7s from the Tsi100s? I mean, how noticeable is the difference? Also, would my receiver (Onkyo TX-8255, 50 wpc) be able to drive them? I have an opportunity to trade up, and not sure what to do. Thanks.

With your receiver, no. The Lsi7 are big step up from your Tsi100's. You will need more power to make them sound
better than your Tsi100's.

pyrocyborg

Hi again PeterR,

I upgraded from the RTi/A to the LSi series, and to be honest, it was quite a difference in sound : smoother (less treble) with an interresting amount of detail. Overall, I'm very satisfied with my "move".

As jimbo1421 and hertz pointed out, the LSi series speakers are advertised as 4 ohms, which means they need to be driven by a capable amplifier (not a typical receiver). However, I need to point out that the LSi7 are the babies of the series and thus, are less power hungry than their brothers (i.e. they do not need a 70+ wpc amp to sound good, and their impedance is higher than advertised): Most of the time, the LSi7 impedance will be higher than 6 ohm, while the LSi9 dip under 2 ohms, which is terrible for most non-high-end receiver!

That being said, if you do not listen to your music at high volume, your receiver will have no trouble driving them. Still, you'll most probably need a sub and you do not pair a 100$ sub with 400$ worth of speakers, IMO. With that taken in mind, it might go to a price point way higher than your planned budget (around 700-800$ for both the speakers and the sub).

There is some 8 ohms speakers around 350-400$ that can go head-to-head against the LSi7: KEF Q100 for example (wait for a deal, they can go as low as 350$ instead of 500-550$), Monitor Audio Bronze BX2, and other non Polk speakers. I mean, the Polk LSi are hard to beat at clearance prices, but when there is some pearls here and there...

pyrocyborg

BTW, there is a good entry-level 4 ohm capable stereo receiver : The Harman Kardon 3390 which can be had for around 240$. However, it increases even further your budget!

If you like your current speakers, keep them and pair them with an entry level sub. Won't be the best sound ever, but if you take some time positionning it, it can sound great for the price. Remember, with speakers stands and correct speakers placement, your speakers will sound great: if you do not that this into consideration, they won't even sound at their best and even the best speaker out there could sound flat and dull. There is a lot of information about this here and there.

rooftop59

The Lsi7s have been bench tested in all the reviews done by major publications at closer to 6 ohms than 4 ohms. When you add the midrange driver and different crossover components in the rest of the line, the rating drops to 4 ohms nominal with some 2 ohm dips.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/polk-audio-lsi7-loudspeaker-measurements

Translation? The 7s are easier to drive than the rest. Having said that, of course a real amp is going to make them shine. I drove mine with an HK AVR 630 and really enjoyed them, moved up to a nad 317 and they were much better. So much so that I did not miss having a sub. Part of the reason for that is the very annoying mid-bass bump of the 7s. I could never get them to integrate well with a sub, but I noticed the bump much less on their own. This was nearfield in a small office, so keep that in mind.

I would suggest keeping the speakers you have for at least a few months, and adding a small, musical sub. It doesn't have to be sealed to be musical, but it is easier to get a sealed sub "right." My suggestions would be that Energy s10.3 at mewegg (I owned the Mirage version that was virtually identical and it was one of my favorite subs), or the HSU-STF-1. Dr. HSU makes very musical subs.

last suggestion is to buy used. I have only bought one (of about 15 or so) subs new and have NEVER had a problem, but the savings can be significant.

Good luck!

PeterR

These are all great suggestions, and it's a lot to take in. But I think I'll stick with the Tsi100s and keep looking for a decent subwoofer to give them a little more warmth and depth. Now, to decide which one....

pyrocyborg

PeterR wrote: »

These are all great suggestions, and it's a lot to take in. But I think I'll stick with the Tsi100s and keep looking for a decent subwoofer to give them a little more warmth and depth. Now, to decide which one....

If I can ask you: do you like the sound right now, without a subwoofer? I mean, do you think the speaker by itself sounds fine? If you do, keep it and pair it with a musical sub, as suggested. However, if you find the speaker too "bright" or even harsh, maybe it's not the speaker for you and no subwoofer will completly tame the brightness.

Choose with your heart (ears!) and your budget! :cheesygrin:

PeterR

I do like the sound of the Tsi100s, very much. The only thing they lack is a full bass presence. So, your advice about keeping them and getting a musical sub seems like the way to go.

pyrocyborg

Good way to think about it. And if you get a good sub, well, you can keep it if you ever upgrade to another speaker in a few years from now. As I said, there is a lot of 8 ohm speakers around, and 4 ohm speakers aren't any better than the 8 (so you might keep your receiver for a long time).

You could repost here after you buy your subwoofer to give us our impressions. Good luck, and good listening :P !

PeterR

Another question, if you don't mind: of all the suggestions offered above, which ones would be the most "musical" subs? I really have no frame of reference for it. I did have a chance to listen to a friend's Polk PSW111--would that be considered a musical sub? Because it sounded a little "boomy" to me, or maybe it was just the way he set it up.

PeterR

All right, well I jumped the gun and made my decision. Based on suggestions here and things I read elsewhere, I decided to go with the Dayton Audio SUB-800. The price was right, it fit the space, and had strong reviews.

Just ordered it today; as soon as I get it and hook it up I'll report back with my results. Thanks again to everyone for the help.

pyrocyborg

Well, I know it might be late, but most subs can sound boomy if poorly positionned. It's really hard to integrate a sub in a room, except if the room was built with HT or a 2.1/2.2 ch setup in mind... and even there, it needs some work and time.

But yeah, the sound of the sub can't be determined by specs or anything. You gotta read reviews and also look on the internet (or on the manufacturer's website) what is the subwoofer for. If they write "stereo" or music first in their description, it might be a musical subwoofer. A sealed subwoofer is probably better for music too... compared to a ported one. Overall, a musical subwoofer will be easier to "integrate" in your system (will feel like if it was one with the speakers), will have tight and fast bass, compared to a strong but boomy bass. For an HT, you don't care much about setting the crossover 1 hz or 5 hz too low, as long as bass is there... for a stereo setup, it's harder IMO to get it right: that's why it might sound boomy.

Anyways, most sub will do just right for music, but the PSW111 is more like an HT sub than a musical sub, as most sub 150$ subwoofers. Don't know about the Dayton's sound, but it's a good one and I'm sure you'll be pleased.

PeterR

Well, I tried the sub and was very disappointed. It barely made any difference at all. I had to turn the gain almost all the way up just to hear it, and no matter where I set the crossover, it just added a lot of boominess to the sound. Maybe I did something wrong, but I'm thinking that maybe an 8" sub just isn't enough for the room, or I need to spend a LOT more money on a more musical sub.

Very frustrated. Will probably ditch the sub altogether and put up with the weaker bass for a while.

pyrocyborg

Hi! What are the dimension of your room, exactly? Did you place the sub in a corner (hard corner, with hard walls instead of soft walls if possible)?

FYW, my REL T-3, which is a good small 8'' sub, isn't able to fill my 28x12 living room because of my "openned" kitchen/dinning room (12x14): it's way too much for a sub that small to have any kind of very punchy bass. It adds some depth, and it's warmer, but it's definetly not very punchy anymore.

Also, are you sure the phase was correct (0 or 180)? If it's out of phase with the speakers, it will cancel the bass. Try both settings and listen again, if you didn't already.

PeterR

The room is about 15x18, with corner spaces being degraded by built-in bookcases on one wall and a diagonal on the rear wall. The room also opens into another room of roughly equal size, so I'm sure that's not ideal either. I played around with everything from placement to phase adjustment and still no good result.

So, maybe a sub isn't the best idea for this room. Thanks for all the suggestions, though.

pyrocyborg

PeterR wrote: »

The room also opens into another room of roughly equal size, so I'm sure that's not ideal either.

That... a sub "pressurize" a room, but if the room's volume is too high, a small sub won't cut it. Also, bigger subs at this price range are boomy at best, so it's not going to work either way.

Sorry it didn't work out.

PeterR

That's okay; thanks for the help. I feel like I learned a lot of good info to use in my next setup. Just need to get that basement finished and I can get to work on assembling the system I really want....

tonyb

PeterR wrote: »

The room is about 15x18, with corner spaces being degraded by built-in bookcases on one wall and a diagonal on the rear wall. The room also opens into another room of roughly equal size, so I'm sure that's not ideal either. I played around with everything from placement to phase adjustment and still no good result.

So, maybe a sub isn't the best idea for this room. Thanks for all the suggestions, though.

Peter,
We need a tad more info than this to help you. How is the sub hooked up ? Which crossover are you using, the one in the receiver or the one on the back of the sub ? What do you have the crossover set at ?

You also need to consider with more open space, you may need a bigger sub to pressurize the room, but I guess all of this means diddly if your going to set up a HT in the basement.