SACD gets slammed

Duffman
Duffman Posts: 51
edited November 2003 in 2 Channel Audio
A very interesting article/interview with Ing. Ohman, who wrote in the Swedish Audio Technical Society Journal about SACD vs. DVD-A.

He sites demonstrable and measurable evidence that indicates SACD in far *inferior* to DVD-A and that DSD technology is just plain bad.

Read on if you're interested:

http://sound.westhost.com/cd-sacd-dvda.htm
Post edited by Duffman on
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited October 2003
    That is a very interesting article. I am not versed well enough to credit or dis-credit it. I would like to hear what some other proficient people in the business would have to say about that article. I wonder if it is true and if true is there some reason why it does not describe reality. Facts are facts but somethimes the important facts are missing and reality is not understood. For me, I can't hear a difference between the two formats. That is saying something because often times I can hear differences between cables and such.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • shack
    shack Posts: 11,154
    edited October 2003
    That article has been out since mid-2002 and discussed many, many times on various audio forums. DVD-A fans point to it time and time again to verify that their format is superior, while the engineers from Sony/Philips can point to research that refutes much of Ohman's conclusions and the research finds SACD superior. SACD supporters say that much of what Ohman is referring to is outside the human audible range and disagree with his interpretation of the results.

    Interesting...maybe. Conclusive...doubtful.

    Even if the man is absolutely correct, I like a comment I read that said research showed that demonstrable and measurable evidence proved beyond any reasonable doubt the BETA format was "far superior" to VHS.

    In the end something will replace both formats (and CD too - and I don't want to hear any of the vinyl crowd's .02 since this is a DIGITAL discussion).
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited October 2003
    Thats a great read, especially following thru the "response" links...waaaaay above my head, but very interesting.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited October 2003
    Originally posted by shack


    In the end something will replace both formats (and CD too - and I don't want to hear any of the vinyl crowd's .02 since this is a DIGITAL discussion).

    One day we may be sampling the media in the gigahertz range. At that point the only thing better will still be vinyl. :D

    Actually I would expect analog (real time continuous play) to make a comeback in some form we can't yet imagine.

    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,543
    edited October 2003
    What a load of hyperbole, the guy is a crackpot.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited October 2003
    This is the first time I ever jumped into a format discussion so here goes.

    I am WOWed by both SACD and DVD-A since buying my Denon 2900. They both sound spectacular on my system which consists of the GREATEST speakers ever manufactured(please see below;) ).

    In all seriousness however, I have enjoyed the SACD's a tad bit more(Toto and Stevey Ray) because there is no surround as compared to my Hotel California DVD_A. Its not that I don't like being enveloped in the music but more so I'm just not used to it. Its just totally foreign to me. On the other hand the bass in Hotel California is awesome and definetly gives my SVS's a work out.

    "All in All", I'll say I'm glad I purchased the 2900 because its exposing me to these new formats and now I can at least provide a rookies point a view with the HBomb twist;)

    1/4Twin
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited October 2003
    Look at Henry with the 2900!!

    Honest opinions:

    1) Sound Quality in ALL formats?

    2) PQ on anamorphic component video?

    BTW, I like both formats and have excellent examples in each.
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen (emullen@svsound.com)
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited October 2003
    With my Pioneer Elite DV-47Ai I notice that SACD and DVDA both offer louder bass. I've been wondering if this is a skew of the frequency response of my player, the format, or the way it is supposed to be. Anyone else notice this, or not, and have any opinions?
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,543
    edited October 2003
    It's the format and the way it's suppose to be. Also, more inner detail, air, smoother highs and a better soundstage. All around, just better, realistic playback.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited October 2003
    If Led Zepplin gets released on DVD-A before SACD....I am going to kill F1Nut.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited October 2003
    Originally posted by Dr. Spec
    Look at Henry with the 2900!!

    Honest opinions:

    1) Sound Quality in ALL formats?

    2) PQ on anamorphic component video?

    BTW, I like both formats and have excellent examples in each.

    I have not tried any home brew disks yet but what I have sensed across audio and vidio is as impressive to me as my purchase of my CL-20. I know I will be satisfied and curious for along time to come.

    I dropped my vidio image processing course half way through my final semester because I was more interested in the astrophysics graduate level course I was invited too. I had 22 credits and chasen women :D something had to give...

    The Matrix reloaded and Monsters Inc are the only 2 movies I have viewed. Both are the best I have ever seen. My CL-20 has 9 bits verse the 12 in the Denon so I'm not shocked that I prefer already the Denon. The Denon has far exceeded the old Cal.

    I bought the Cal in early 2000 so it was time for an upgrade anyway;) I will also snaction the purchase of a power center.

    The Evil Twin :cool:
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited October 2003
    Originally posted by madmax
    I notice that SACD and DVDA both offer louder bass. I've been wondering if this is a skew of the frequency response of my player, the format, or the way it is supposed to be. Anyone else notice this, or not, and have any opinions?
    madmax

    More midbass drivers firing in the room. Probably boots output in the 60-80 Hz region a bit. I noticed it too.
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen (emullen@svsound.com)
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited October 2003
    Originally posted by F1nut
    It's the format and the way it's suppose to be. Also, more inner detail, air, smoother highs and a better soundstage. All around, just better, realistic playback.

    You probably answered the question but I'm still not getting it. So is the response skewed from the master? If I were to listen to the master would the bass level be closer to a CD or to an SACD? One reason I'm really wondering is because if I compare an lp to a CD, the levels are essentially the same. If I compare to an SACD or DVDA the bass is really louder, midrange about the same and the treble a little hotter.

    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,543
    edited October 2003
    My understanding is that the SACD is closer to the master. Being as it is a high-rez format it reveals more of the original recording. I've always thought the bass was lacking on CD's, so I'm quite pleased with the SACD format.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,194
    edited October 2003
    I believe the 2 formats can't be correctly battled.They don't offer the same music.

    I like them both and just wish for more music.

    Listen and you'll see.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,543
    edited October 2003
    One example off the top of my head, Steely Dan's Gaucho is on both SACD and DVD-A. Compare (or battle) that!
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Gary Robertson
    Gary Robertson Posts: 201
    edited November 2003
    I'm thinking that i will decide to hang on to the 350 vinyl albums i own..because like some of you said earlier in this post,,vinyl could come back. STEREOPHILE is already advertising a laser light vinyl player..You just slide the record in and jam..But on the other hand ,i am soooo ecstatic about the way my BRYSTON/MARTIN LOGAN "PRODIGY system sounds with a plain old regular cd-that i don't even about sacd or all that other stuff,,"BUT" i probably will care once i become more educated..I just had to put my 2 cents worth in because i haven't been on this forum in awhile and i missed it and all you loco audiophile buddies..
    System #2
    Yamaha cdc-755,(20 bit DAC )
    Yamaha KX W382 cassette deck,
    ADCOM GFA-545-II.ampfilier,,
    ADCOM GFP-450 Preamp ,,BBE audio Restoration System (ARS)--Monster--M850I Innerconects and Monster 14 gauge speaker cable and the Fabulous POLK RT-7's with a Velodyne 12/15 subwoofer system ....she rocks.........
    .............................
    System #1:
    Meridian 508-24 cd.(20 bit DAC)
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    Bryston 14b-sst amplifier,
    Martin Logan Prodigy Electrostatc speakers.and Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II innerconnects (rca) with Acoustic Zen Satori Shotgun speaker cable.
    ............................. "Jazz is democracy in music".
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited November 2003
    Gary,
    I hate to see someone make a foolish decision. I'll take those 350 lp's off your hands for $200 just to keep you from making a mistake. :D

    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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