Starter/Solenoid Problem or something else?

audiobliss

Nevermind on the o2 sensor issues. After removing it, reinspecting, reinstalling, and starting again, it runs fine.

Now the only issue is deciding if I should install the new ignition starter switch in hopes that's the problem, and then waiting to see if it acts up again.

Jstas

Wait, you put the new starter in, screwed something up and the unscrewed something up and everything is working fine yet you want to replace the starter switch?

If it was me, I'd give it a few days and see if the issue comes back. At that point, I might replace the starter switch but I'd be looking else where for issues. Unless you're still having the clicking issues (now or in a few days), I'd return the starter switch and call it fixed.

bobsauto49

If there is an audible click under the hood,it does not need an ignition switch.

audiobliss

Jstas wrote: »

Wait, you put the new starter in, screwed something up and the unscrewed something up and everything is working fine yet you want to replace the starter switch?

If it was me, I'd give it a few days and see if the issue comes back. At that point, I might replace the starter switch but I'd be looking else where for issues. Unless you're still having the clicking issues (now or in a few days), I'd return the starter switch and call it fixed.

Since I finished putting in the new starter and the o2 sensor, it has started fine multiple times. However, earlier on in the process (after having the current new starter in) it still exhibited that 'click' but no action symptom. So based on that I just finished putting the new switch in. He said if that doesn't fix it I can bring it back tomorrow. I'm going to see if I can start it a few times tonight without just sitting there going on off on off on off and seriously stressing everything, to see if it hiccups again.

bobsauto49 wrote: »

If there is an audible click under the hood,it does not need an ignition switch.

If this is the case, then I totally need to rethink this last step. Though fundamentally it does make sense.

gdb

If it were me....I'd keep in mind the age of the vehicle and, as long as I was "into it", I'd replace as many low cost items as possible due to the fact that they're old and while working presently, could just as easily crap out tomorrow! Like a switch, relay, etc. ( Unless I was really hard-up for cash) then, bare minimum is the rule. Do you know how to check for starter gear/flywheel clearance and shim if needed ?

sucks2beme

It may be time to check for a loose or flakey connection. That includes checking the grounding.

audiobliss

Last night I put the new ignition starter switch in and started it a few times; worked fine. So then I got brave and drove it down the street to the grocery store. Did my shopping (two 2L bottles of Mt Dew), hopped in the car, and it didn't start, haha. At least that is, the first two or three times; it did start on the next attempt. So I pulled out the new switch and put the old one back in as soon as I got back to the house.

At least I can now get that $42.50 back. However, I'm pretty much clueless on what to look at next, unless it's just a wiring problem between the switch and the starter. In which case, crap.

Jstas

No, it's not a wiring problem between the switch and the starter. The starter wouldn't even engage and you wouldn't get a clicking sound at all.

If you have a wiring problem, it's going to be a ground strap/lead from the starter to where ever it's grounded (already told you to check that) or it's the power lead from the battery to the starter. If it works fine in the driveway after you get it all straightened out but dies after you drive it then you very well could have a loose connections that gets vibrated loose after driving.

gdb's suggestion of shimming the starter may be needed too but honestly, on modern cars it's not really necessary since mounting blocks and plates are machined to tolerances and not stamped or cast anymore. Still, it's not outside the realm of possibilities.



Now, this clicking when it doesn't start, is it rapid? Like you turn the key and it clickclickclickclickclickclick? If so, you have a current problem getting to the starter and probably need to replace wires. If one is bad replace both power and ground. A low draw or overdraw condition can cause corrosion to travel down a power lead and rot the cabling inside the insulation.

If it just goes click and does nothing then, like I said previously, it could be the relay. I checked and RockAuto.com lists a relay for your starting system. I told you to check that too.

audiobliss

I canNOT find a relay for the starter anywhere. But the ground strap from the starter looks fine.

Jstas

I'll look for it in ALLDATA when I get home.

It's a 2001 Mitsubishi Galant, right? Automagical transmission? What engine? 4 or 6?

audiobliss

Jstas wrote: »

I'll look for it in ALLDATA when I get home.

It's a 2001 Mitsubishi Galant, right? Automagical transmission? What engine? 4 or 6?

Yup, yup, and 4.

I found the relay on rock-auto as well. It shows two prongs on top, and then three along the bottom. I've pulled every relay out and checked, and none of them have the three prongs along the bottom; they all just have the two outside with a blank middle.

Jstas

audiobliss wrote: »

Yup, yup, and 4.

I found the relay on rock-auto as well. It shows two prongs on top, and then three along the bottom. I've pulled every relay out and checked, and none of them have the three prongs along the bottom; they all just have the two outside with a blank middle.

Dude, relays can be buried anywhere. I had a Hyundai that had a starter relay too. It was under a plastic panel that covered the transmission tunnel.

If it has a relay, ALLDATA will have the location. I'll find it and tell you where it is. If it has a picture, I'll crop it out and post it.

jbooker82

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

I never recommend any parts from Autozone or Advance Auto. Whatever I don't wish to fix a car over and over again.

Yep because they are the walmart of auto parts.

gdb

"Yep because they are the walmart of auto parts."

But, they also sell OE brands like AC Delco etc. so you need to know what yer getting. Unless you ENJOY being bent over at the dealers parts counter. That's still no guarantee of getting a non-defective or a part that wasn't roughly handled .

gdb

I have Never seen an auto parts store that would take returns on electrical items, especially items like windings/switches. You're very lucky to be able to return that switch.

jbooker82

Check for bad / coroded battery cables. They may look fine on the outside but the corosion creeps down and into the wire. If you put new cables on take a pocket knife and strip the insulation back to see how far the blue/green corosion has leached down in to the wire.

jbooker82

gdb wrote: »

"Yep because they are the walmart of auto parts."

But, they also sell OE brands like AC Delco etc. so you need to know what yer getting. Unless you ENJOY being bent over at the dealers parts counter. That's still no guarantee of getting a non-defective or a part that wasn't roughly handled .

That is true but they usually have to order in the Delco or Bosch stuff, and how many people are going to pay 3 to 4x as much when they can have it today for cheap. I would take a Napa or Carquest reman part over an advanced auto or autozone.

audiobliss

gdb wrote: »

I have Never seen an auto parts store that would take returns on electrical items, especially items like windings/switches. You're very lucky to be able to return that switch.

I decided to purchase the switch and give it a shot because the guy was being extremely nice to me and told me I could try it out, and if it didn't fix it return it the next day. He also ordered in a Haynes manual for the car and let me take that home to reference without purchasing it. Certainly a rare but great auto parts experience!

gdb

I'm pullin' for ya to get that thing staightened out !

audiobliss

gdb wrote: »

I'm pullin' for ya to get that thing staightened out !

Thanks man! I am, too! Haha

Jstas

OK, this is the location of that relay. OEM Part number MR409996.

It's the horn/anti-theft relay. It interrupts the starter motor circuit if the proper key isn't in the ignition and such. They apparently go bad and can cause a bunch of problems. You're in luck though 'cause it's only like 10 bucks.

Here's the location:

That is in the relay box under the hood. On the driver's side, right above the front driver's wheel or mounted to the fire wall between the brake master cylinder and the fender.

Unfortunately, without a relay tester they can be difficult to test. Getting continuity across an open relay is easy but applying the right amount of power to close the relay is more difficult. But it's so cheap that if it's even suspect might as well just swap it out.

And, again, check the power cables. If they even look slightly ratty, replace them.

But you didn't tell me what kind of clicking you are getting. That's important to know.

audiobliss

Oops, my bad on the clicking noise. When the problem is exhibiting itself, there is a noise like the 'bzzzzt' of a gas grill's piezoelectric lighter (haven't heard one of these in a while, so perhaps it's a poor analogy; if said lighter actually 'clicks', then forget this comparison) between the firewall and engine block, and then a single click that sounds as if it's more towards the engine block area, or maybe past it towards the front of the car. It might would be nice to have a friend turn the key so I could listen under the hood for these noises more.

I just went out and yanked the relay, came back and looked at the diagram you posted, and I think I pulled the wrong one. However, I'll have to go back out tomorrow (or likely Sunday as I work 12 hours tomorrow) when it's light out to confirm. But, it appears as though I have that lower grouping of three (A/T, Fuel pump, and MFI relays), and then a blank space of no relays until you get to the Fan control, horn, and A/C compressor relays. If what I'm thinking is correct, then I just pulled the Horn relay from the top corner.

Anyways, thanks for the diagram, and I'll at least manage to get a look to confirm the relays tomorrow when it's light out again.

Jstas

Dude, if that sound is right you have a current problem. Your leads to the starter and to the ground point are probably ****. You should replace them.

BTW, bad leads can cause solenoids to go bad as well as starters and can kill batteries as well. For the same reason your don't want your wires in your stereo to be corroded, you don't want the wires in your car to be corroded too.

audiobliss

Interesting. Seems like that could possibly explain and fix all the problems. That will be a real pain replacing, though. There's a huge wad of wires leaving the positive post, all bundled in black corrugated plastic looming, that divides once or twice, each 'branch' also covered in said looming, each 'intersection' wrapped in electrical tape. Dealing with all that will be ten times harder than replacing the starter, haha.

Should I try to disconnect and pull out the suspect wiring before purchasing new? Just match up the gauge and length?

audiobliss

So I took a second look at the fuse box under the hood and snapped a picture.


As you can see, I have those three bottom relays that according to your diagram are the A/T, fuel pump, and MFI relays. And then on top I also have the fan control, A/C compressor, and horn relays (horn relay is currently removed). But in that middle section for the ABS warning light and theft-alarm horn relay, it's just blank.

What the heck?

bobsauto49

jbooker82 wrote: »

I would take a Napa or Carquest reman part over an advanced auto or autozone.

Thank you! I own a Carquest store,and its nice to hear people say that! Most of our parts are from OE suppliers. I wont sell some of our parts to customers that I KNOW have common problems,just from expierience!

Jstas

audiobliss wrote: »

Interesting. Seems like that could possibly explain and fix all the problems. That will be a real pain replacing, though. There's a huge wad of wires leaving the positive post, all bundled in black corrugated plastic looming, that divides once or twice, each 'branch' also covered in said looming, each 'intersection' wrapped in electrical tape. Dealing with all that will be ten times harder than replacing the starter, haha.

Should I try to disconnect and pull out the suspect wiring before purchasing new? Just match up the gauge and length?

No, it couldn't fix the other problems. You had the battery and starter tested and they were both bad. New cables aren't going to fix that.

Bad cables, however, are the most likely culprit for causing the problem.

You don't have to match up anything. Go to the parts store, tell the counter monkey that you need new battery cables for your car and they will be able to give you ones that will work well enough.

Get to work, quit bitching. If it was easy, everybody would be doing it. But it's not, it's a big pile of suck and that's why mechanics charge so much. Their expertise and willingness to deal with it 'cause you don't want to either.

If it's plastic loom, it's held together with electrical tape at strategic spots along the way. There are no splices in the line, just break-off points where the various wires need to route away from the main, protected trunk. Disconnect the battery so you don't shock yourself into oblivion accidentally and slit the tape over the wire loom gap with a razor blade. GENTLY so you don't cut into wires inside the loom. Pull it off gently so you don't accidentally rip another wire out of somewhere and cause more problems for yourself.

SAVE ALL LOOM PIECES. You're going to put them back when you get the new wire run.


And if you don't have the relays for the various functions then it's likely your car does not have those functions so don't worry about it. Just make sure you put the cover back on and replace that horn relay.so that no gunk gets in there and risks shorting out any connections. Plus that horn relay may cause the car to not start. But honestly, don't waste time and money on it. Put it back, I highly doubt it's your problem.

disneyjoe7

bobsauto49 wrote: »

Thank you! I own a Carquest store,and its nice to hear people say that! Most of our parts are from OE suppliers. I wont sell some of our parts to customers that I KNOW have common problems,just from expierience!

Nice Bob, I just recently added Carquest to my parts store phone # as I needed a AC / Receiver Dryer and my other source didn't stock. Been buying some parts there since, been pleased with the quality and price.