Starter/Solenoid Problem or something else?

audiobliss

Friend has a 2001 Mitsubishi Galant. After watching Prometheus last night (great movie, btw!!), we grabbed some supper, hopped in the car, nothin'. Poking around under the hood, when the switch was turned to the start position there was an audible 'click', but absolutely no other sounds. Then, when being switched to the 'run' position you could hear a slight 'bzzzt' that sounded just like the piezoelectric lighter on a gas grill. Called AAA (free towing within 100 miles, woot. Thanks Mom!) and then kept tinkering with it. Ended up some black guy on a bike swooped in, claiming to be a backyard mechanic, crawled underneath the car, and then it started. I'm pretty sure it was just coincidence, as I don't think he ever even touched the starter, but he at least did get closer to finding it than I did. I was looking on the back of the engine (transverse I4, fwd), and apparently it's under the exhaust heat shield on the front.

Anyways, my question is, do you think it's the starter? When we piled in and it wouldn't start, I checked to see if it was the battery by having the interior lights on, radio on, headlights on, and then turning up the fan. No indication of a weak battery at all. Just the 'click' and 'bzzzt' when turning the ignition switch. So my gut is it's the starter or solenoid. Can't figure out what else it would be. There are only two things making me hesitate with that diagnosis. 1) During the winter he said the car would do this, and every time he jumped it, it started. Is there a connection there, or just coincidence the starter would work when he happened to be jumping it? 2) the 'bzzt' noise is coming from between the firewall and engine, while the starter is apparently between the front clip and the engine.

I'm fixing to tear into it and see if I can see the starter, maybe see if there's a loose connection. The plan was to replace the starter this morning, but I want to be more sure before I waste my friend's $130 on something he ultimately doesn't need replaced.

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated!!

Joe08867

It's probably the solenoid and when it gets jumped the extra amperage gets it moving.

I would try the tap method. If it happens again. Tap the solenoid with something. Hammer, metal pipe, whatever you can but don't bash it. Give it a couple of good taps and try again. If it works you have your answer.

PoweredByDodge

It's definately starter or starter control related - else you'd hear the engine cranking. It could also be the starter relay (ignition relay).

The lazy man (me) would check for voltage at the starter, and if found, then replace entire starter assembly with remanned. The frugal man (cheap or on a budget) would do a diagnostic and replace only what's needed.

Autozone brand spankin new starter = part number "DLG17697" @ 165 bucks + core
Autozone remanned starter = part number "17697" @ 135 bucks + core
... includes relay / solenoid / bendix.

Your diagnostic should proceed as follows.

-- lift the drive wheels off the ground and/or engage the parking brake, and leave the automatic transmission in PARK or the manual transmission in NEUTRAL.
-- car is OFF

#1
-- with a volt-meter, test the battery from terminal to terminal, you should have 12 volts.
-- -- if you don't have at least 11.5, charge battery on trickle overnight, and retest.
-- -- if you still don't have 12.5 or better, change battery.

#2
-- after the above is squared away, test from the battery positive terminal to the engine block. you should have 12 volts. if you do not, then the ground straps from the battery to body, engine to body, battery to engine, or however your car is setup... the ground straps are shot.
-- -- replace ground straps (typically 4awg wire is suitable for a stock vehicle, or you can buy the OEM straps) and re-check.

#3
-- after #2, with a volt-meter, check for 12 volts at the lug / terminal where the large 6 gauge or so power cable comes down from the battery to the starter... check between there and the engine block. If you do not have 12 volts, then something is wrong with the power cable feed from the battery terminal to the starter input.
-- -- replace starter power cable and re-check to confirm you now have voltage.

REFERENCE THIS IMAGE -- http://download.spinellicreations.com/images/generic_automotive_starter_20120620/generic_automotive_starter_pinout_courtesy_FOMOCO.jpg

-- TERMINAL "B" is the input from the battery, this is the one you're checking in step #3

#4
-- now, place your meter between the engine block and Terminal "S" from the above diagram. This is the trigger for the starter relay. It might be a spade connector, or it might be a small lug / nut. Either way, it's the "skinny" of the 3 connections. Test for voltage, and you should see 0 (no) voltage. Then, have a buddy crank the key, and you should see 12 volts at this terminal.
-- -- if you do not have 12 volts at the terminal, then you have a connection problem at either the key / steering column, or at the start/run ignition relay which is typically up on the firewall or federwall. The operation of these will vary slightly from car to car, but at this point I'd say go find a mechanic you trust rather than chopping apart a wiring harness that you (no offense) may not be in a position of experience to deal with.

#5
-- if step 4 checks out ok, then place your meter between the engine block and TERMINAL "M" from the above diagram. This is the normally-open side of the relay, feeding the actual starter motor itself. You should (with the car off) have 0 (no) voltage.
-- -- if you have voltage at this terminal without having a buddy crank the key, then the relay is bad, and probably caused the starter motor to burn out. Replace relay and re-test.
-- with your meter still in place, have a buddy crank the engine. You should get 12 volts at this terminal now. You may only see 10 or so, due to the current draw necessary to crank the motor during starting. That is acceptable.
-- -- if you do not have voltage at this lug while your buddy is cranking the key, then the relay is bad. Replace the relay and retest.
-- -- if you DO have voltage at this lug while your buddy is cranking the key, but the starter isn't cranking the motor, or isn't turning at all, then either the starter motor is shot, or the starter bendix is wasted (whether because the teeth are chewed off or because it's not plunging forward when engaged). Either way, replace the entire starter assembly (get a remanned starter that includes starter motor + relay + solenoid + bendix ... usually any remanned starter will include all of this regardless), and retest. You should find that it fires right up afterward.

audiobliss

Well, I just tried it again and it started up perfectly. Which means 1) it's an intermittent problem and 2) I'm a moron and will have to wait for the exhaust manifold to cool off (since the starter's tucked between the block and the manifold; who knew they could get so hot in 20 seconds?).

Joe08867 - Thanks! I figured it had to be something like that.

PoweredByDodge - Thanks for chiming in! That sounds like a great diagnostic approach, and will allow for more practice with the voltmeter.


Thanks so much for the information, guys!

Drenis

Just a FYI, a working radio, interior/exterior lights will NOT necessarily mean you have a full battery if it doesn't have enough power to turn the engine over.

Does it do this when the car sits for a long period of time? If not I'm inclined to assume solenoid.

audiobliss

Ok, so just got back from testing it out with the voltmeter. Battery is good with 14-16V, and same from battery to engine block. The B terminal from the battery is also solid at 12V. Testing the S terminal, car off, got 0V. But the car decided to not start during the testing, so with it cranking it only got about 10V to the S terminal. I decided to go ahead and test the M terminal, too, and it has 0V at both off and starting positions.

So, I didn't get the expected 12V at the S terminal when starting, but I did get 10V. Is this indicative of wiring problems, or would this be acceptable, thus meaning the problem lies with the relay since while it was exhibiting symptoms I read 0V at the M terminal?

Thanks!

Jstas

Without being there in person, it's hard to tell. But you're likely going to have to order the solenoid whereas the new starter is available now and comes with all the other parts too.

I will say though that a battery can seem fine with all the low-draw stuff on like lights, stereo, interior lights and so on and still be bad. The highest draw item outside of your ignition and starting system are power seats. Everything else is typically 10 amps or less. A starter will pull between 30 and 60 amps with the ignition pulling another 30+ amps at the same time. THAT draw is many times greater than the sum of all your other electrical accessories. You may want to get the battery load tested while you're at Pep Boys getting the starter.

Jstas

audiobliss wrote: »

Ok, so just got back from testing it out with the voltmeter. Battery is good with 14-16V, and same from battery to engine block. The B terminal from the battery is also solid at 12V. Testing the S terminal, car off, got 0V. But the car decided to not start during the testing, so with it cranking it only got about 10V to the S terminal. I decided to go ahead and test the M terminal, too, and it has 0V at both off and starting positions.

So, I didn't get the expected 12V at the S terminal when starting, but I did get 10V. Is this indicative of wiring problems, or would this be acceptable, thus meaning the problem lies with the relay since while it was exhibiting symptoms I read 0V at the M terminal?

Thanks!

That's a bad battery.

audiobliss

Drenis wrote: »

Just a FYI, a working radio, interior/exterior lights will NOT necessarily mean you have a full battery if it doesn't have enough power to turn the engine over.

Does it do this when the car sits for a long period of time? If not I'm inclined to assume solenoid.

Thanks for the input! The car never really sits long enough for that to be used to gauge anything. And thanks for the input on the radio/lights not being a very telling load on the battery. Even discounting that as proof, when the starter does engage and the car cranks, it turns over quickly enough (at an expected pace) and starts so easily that I cannot imagine the battery is the issue.

audiobliss

Jstas wrote: »

That's a bad battery.

Wow, guess I was dead wrong. It's just hard for me to suspect the battery when it goes from a click and no other activity whatsoever, to engaging and turning over and starting exactly perfectly. I guess this is just due to the variability of a dying battery? The S terminal requires 12V to route power to the M terminal, thus when the battery is on the low side and only provides 10V there's no activity? And then when the battery can supply the 12V everything works out fine? Is that kind of what's going on here? Just trying to understand the scenario more fully!

Jstas

You likely have a bad solenoid too because a 0V reading means it's not engaging. But if you are reading 10V or less at the starter under load then the battery has a bad cell that doesn't manifest until a load is put on it.

Just reading a battery with a volt meter isn't enough. It can read 14V (BTW, 16V is too high and indicative of a bad battery) and still not support any amperage draw. The load testers at the parts store and repair shops have a bank of resistors that they force the battery to energize and it mimics the draw on the battery by the starting system. The voltage and current across that bank of resistors is measured and if it drops out of spec, you get a red light and it's bad. If it's close but still OK, you get a yellow light. If it's A-OK you get a green light. But that load test will show stuff that a volt meter doesn't.

audiobliss

Thanks for the info. So it sounds like I'll be taking the battery for a load test and possibly replacing it (though hopefully not leaving it overnight to charge and retest as I imagine they'll suggest). Instead of paying for the battery and starter in one fell swoop, would it make sense to replace the battery and retest, hoping for a solid 12V at the S terminal and then 12V at the M terminal? Though I imagine even then it could work for a while and then fail again if the solenoids in the process of going out. So with that in consideration would it make more sense to replace both?

Jstas

audiobliss wrote: »

Wow, guess I was dead wrong. It's just hard for me to suspect the battery when it goes from a click and no other activity whatsoever, to engaging and turning over and starting exactly perfectly. I guess this is just due to the variability of a dying battery? The S terminal requires 12V to route power to the M terminal, thus when the battery is on the low side and only provides 10V there's no activity? And then when the battery can supply the 12V everything works out fine? Is that kind of what's going on here? Just trying to understand the scenario more fully!

It's a 12V system. If you get less that 12V anywhere in the system then you aren't pushing enough amperage to maintain that 12V so no, it shouldn't work right. Amperage is what matters and you need a certain amperage to move stuff. If you are pushing 10V in a 12V system then you have a current problem. The only thing in your car that generates current is the alternator. So if the car is not running then that current has to come from somewhere else. That somewhere else is the battery. So if you see less than 12V in your system with no output from the alternator, then you have a current problem which is an issue with the battery.

You are likely getting intermittent issues because the car is periodically sitting long enough for the bad battery to lose enough juice (like due to a cracked or broken plate in a cell) that it's in effective. This could be days or hours or even minutes. Hence the reason the car will start just fine after running in to a 7-Eleven but dies after a 2 hour movie.

You will get voltage drops in the system under load but the drop shouldn't go below 12V. That's why your battery puts out typically 13-14.5 volts. Much higher than that and it's an indication that there might be an issue. If your load is dropping voltage lower than 12V then that is also an issue.

When voltage drops below 12V it makes things act really goofy because the lower voltage changes resistances all over your electrical systems and that changes sensor readings and such. It makes things behave every weirdly. Hence the reason places like Pep Boys will test batteries and starters. Just because it's acting weird doesn't mean it's the problem.

Jstas

audiobliss wrote: »

Thanks for the info. So it sounds like I'll be taking the battery for a load test and possibly replacing it (though hopefully not leaving it overnight to charge and retest as I imagine they'll suggest). Instead of paying for the battery and starter in one fell swoop, would it make sense to replace the battery and retest, hoping for a solid 12V at the S terminal and then 12V at the M terminal? Though I imagine even then it could work for a while and then fail again if the solenoids in the process of going out. So with that in consideration would it make more sense to replace both?

No, don't leave it to test overnight. That doesn't show anything. If it fails the load test but is still showing 14V+ at the terminals, it's bad, replace it.

WTF with the terminal testing? Stop sticking stuff on the terminals. The starter and solenoid are insanely simple. They work or they don't. Replace the battery. Did it start the car? If yes, great, come back in a few hours, try it again. Did it start again with no problems? If yes, great, problem is fixed. If no, probably need a new starter or you have a bad ground somewhere (which could also cause a power drain and kill a battery). If you replace the battery and it still doesn't work right, you need a new starter. Check your grounds and cabling too. Engine ground strap as well.

BTW, bad starters can make a good battery go bad. Over-drawing rots the plates in the cells with advanced corrosion that recharging doesn't recover. If a plate gets too ratty it can fracture and fall apart. This makes a battery look OK on a volt meter, especially after charging. However, under heavy load, there isn't enough plate exposed to the "acid" to support the draw necessary to run the starter and start the car.

You're probably still going to need the starter. To save yourself a trip to the parts store, I'd get the starter and hold on to the receipt. You can always return it if you don't need it.

Polkie2009

Audiobliss, any idea if the car has an automatic or manual tranny? How many months old is the battery, condition of the connections to the battery and starter? Do the interior lights or radio etc. go dim or out when you tried starting the vehicle? Remember, you have to have proper voltage going from battery through ignition switch and possibly a neutral safety switch(some vehicles with a M/T, have a safety switch that only allow the car to start if the clutch pedal is pressed down), in the 2001 vehicle back to the starter. Heat and cold can bring out the worse in a battery and in most cases is the cheapest fix to get you up and running.

disneyjoe7

If you need a starter may I suggest an Auto Electric place around you that rebuilds Alternators and Starters.

gdb

I always suspect the battery first in scenarios like yours. I even had a fairly new batt. from Walmart (made by Exide) that was from a huge production run of batts. with defective cells. Full juice one minute, clicking and **** the next ! I usually replace batteries at 3-4 years of age just to avoid the frustration of a no-start/wait for motor club response ! I now buy batts. from AutoZone and haven't had any complaints yet.

audiobliss

Just got back in from replacing the battery. Took the old one down to Autozone and it tested bad. Cheapest thing they had was $99. I expressed surprise that it was so expensive, and he very generously told me of two other place I could go to get a battery cheaper. So I ended up with a battery from the Battery Warehouse. It's only 575CCA (but the one I'm replacing was 580, so not much difference) and I fear may be cheaper than would be ideal, but it has a 5 year replacement warranty and was only $65 out the door.

Put it in and the car started fine. I'm going to let it sit a while and try it again. A part of me is hoping it acts up again confirming a starter problem as well. Something about confirming defective equipment and replacing it is just more assuring than assuming nothing else is wrong and hoping it doesn't leave you stranded.

audiobliss

Thanks for all the responses and information, guys. It's greatly appreciated. It's awesome to know I can always come here with a question and get valuable advice quickly!

disneyjoe7

I always like to turn on the headlights and try to start the engine, if headlight stay bright then its a solenoid. If the headlights don't stay bright its a battery or a bad connection.

Jstas

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

I always like to turn on the headlights and try to start the engine, if headlight stay bright then its a solenoid. If the headlights don't stay bright its a battery or a bad connection.

That's not true.

Especially in newer cars with higher compression ratios. It takes a tremendous amount of power to overcome the compression losses and get the engine moving fast enough to fire. That will make any set of headlights dim.

Besides, doing that you can overdraw a bad battery which could cause issues like the battery exploding. Also, there is a risk of headlights and/or other lights blowing out and that's just more cost and time added to the problems you already have.

And don't start the car with the A/C on either. The starter motor already has enough to deal with. Adding another compressor in to the mix just strains things even more.

audiobliss

Well, I tried it a few more times before buttoning her up, and she started fine every time with the new battery. Ran to Sears and bought std and deep 12mm sockets since over the last few years I lost my std one (only one I had). Came back and finished putting the heat shields back on. Slid the key in to test it, and just a click. Tried again. Just a click. Tried a third time. She started up fine.

Still sound like the solenoid going out and I just need to replace the whole unit?

Jstas

audiobliss wrote: »

Well, I tried it a few more times before buttoning her up, and she started fine every time with the new battery. Ran to Sears and bought std and deep 12mm sockets since over the last few years I lost my std one (only one I had). Came back and finished putting the heat shields back on. Slid the key in to test it, and just a click. Tried again. Just a click. Tried a third time. She started up fine.

Still sound like the solenoid going out and I just need to replace the whole unit?

Honestly, it could just be the solenoid but I've seen the Bendix drive get all jammed up because of something as simple as the helical spring that the pinion gear rides on and the Bendix drive uses to engage the flywheel is bent or broken at the very end. You can just rebuild that if you like but I've rarely seen that work out because whatever piece fell off is buried somewhere in there and it's either left gouges on the old part or will screw up the new parts and you'll just be **** with it again. It's not a matter of if but a matter of when it will get all jammed up again.

Honestly, now that we know the battery is bad and replaced, that is the most likely culprit. A jammed up or out of alignment Bendix drive can cause the Bendix drive to jam up or make it try to push the pinion at the flywheel off-kilter and it just impacts the ring gear teeth instead of meshing. That's why you're getting that click click click three tries in a row and the fourth time it finally engages and starts with out issues.

If it were me, new starter. The Bendix drive and solenoid are rebuildable but often, when they fail, the repair requires either new machined parts or re-machined old parts and at that point, it's cheaper to just replace the whole starter.

If you want to see for sure if that's happening, try it again and get it to do the click click click. Then get under there and feel the starter/solenoid. Is it hot? If so, that's your problem and likely what killed the last battery too. Fix it ASAP or you're gonna kill this battery too..

sucks2beme

Given what a hassle it is if it gives at at midnight in a dark parking lot, go with the sure thing and replace the whole starter assembly.

audiobliss

Well, I ended up taking it to an Advance Auto yesterday. Guy was very nice and said that it's a remanufactured unit (hadn't even noticed that before; so it's already been replaced once) that they sell, he'd go out on a limb and assume they sold it and warranty it with no charge. Ended up paying a $32 core fee since I didn't actually have a core, but just brought in a defective unit with no history in the system, but hey, I'll go with that! It came in this morning, I just slapped her in, hooked up the battery, and got the same clicking when I turned the key. So, I'm about to head out and have it tested at a place or two and if it passes all their tests, I'll see if I can't return to Advance Auto and get the old unit back, since I'll then assume the problem is not actually in the starter assembly. However, it does look a bit beat up, so maybe this starter's bad, too. But being a remanned unit, it's probably fine and just looks rough anyways.

Actually, with seeing the gear not kick out all the way on one of the tests, I might be tempted just to keep this one anyways, especially since it's now legitimately in the system with lifetime warranty. However, this'll open up a whole new can of worms for possible issues. Something the auto parts stores keep mentioning as an alternative issue is the ignition switch. What's a good way of diagnosing that?

disneyjoe7

Go to an Auto Electric company which rebuilds Starters and Alternators. If not you play games later, sorry you're already playing games. But if you wish not too.....

audiobliss

So, for an update. Took the "new" starter by Autozone to have them test it. The gear spun up before kicking out, and kind of bounced just a little when it did fly out. Guy there said he'd deem it bad based on that. So then I took it down to Advance Auto where I got it, and the head guy was there this time. As soon as he saw it, he said he didn't like it. Said he usually looks over parts when they come in, but didn't check this one, but that it looked too rough. Regardless, he tested it and said it tested fine. Told him about the tests at Autozone and he said it has a permanent magnet and that's to be expected. However, he didn't like it being so rough and ordered me another one that'll be in this afternoon.

He also took a few minutes with me (probably ten or fifteen) to try and troubleshoot what else might be the issue. Pulled up some pictures and then even went to the back and grabbed a 'starter switch' off the shelf to demonstrate it to me. Said that's the likeliest culprit at this point. Said it's likely mounted at the base of the steering column and has a rod from the ignition switch that when I crank, extends and pushes a contact on the starter switch to close a circuit. At least, that's my understanding of it so far. So, now I'm trying to locate this said switch somewhere in the car.

He also ordered a manual for it along with the new starter so he and I can go through it and try to find what else might be the issue if this doesn't sort it out. Seems like a genuinely nice guy trying to help me out. Very refreshing to find that sort at a store, though there seem to be a few around here.

Jstas

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Go to an Auto Electric company which rebuilds Starters and Alternators. If not you play games later, sorry you're already playing games. But if you wish not too.....

Heh...playing games. Whatever.

Kid had a bad battery. Got a good battery and had a problem still. Takes the starter out, has it tested and it doesn't kick out. Bad starter. New starter has an issue too it seems (entirely possible even with a rebuild from your Jesus Company "Auto Electric" too) and his issue with the car still isn't fixed. It's not games, it's how it goes sometimes. It is entirely possible that if an ailing starting system is left unattended and continuously abused through usage while broken, every other component can be affected through excessive abuse trying to get the car to start with even one bad component.

audiobliss wrote: »

So, for an update. Took the "new" starter by Autozone to have them test it. The gear spun up before kicking out, and kind of bounced just a little when it did fly out. Guy there said he'd deem it bad based on that. So then I took it down to Advance Auto where I got it, and the head guy was there this time. As soon as he saw it, he said he didn't like it. Said he usually looks over parts when they come in, but didn't check this one, but that it looked too rough. Regardless, he tested it and said it tested fine. Told him about the tests at Autozone and he said it has a permanent magnet and that's to be expected. However, he didn't like it being so rough and ordered me another one that'll be in this afternoon.

If it has a starting switch then that very well could be the cause of the problem too. It could also mask a bad starter. There is probably a relay in there somewhere too and that could also be the issue. But those switches and relays rarely go bad. Then again, it is 11 years old and depending on the number of miles, they could have worn out. But, if two people looked at the new starter and said they don't like it or that it seems bad, I'd get a decent one first and go that route. Just because the bench can pop it out doesn't mean it isn't binding up in the car when the mounts are torqued down.

And no, it shouldn't bounce. It should pop out and stay out. It probably is set to engage the ring gear before it reaches the end of the throw which is fine. But if it flies all the way out and bounces off of the throw stop, something's up.

When I worked at Pep Boys, we would occasionally get starters in that were visibly dropped because the box was pancaked on one side. If we tested it, it'd test fine. But I always hated selling them because I knew it'd come back. 9 times out of 10 a beat starter that "looked ok" and "tested fine" on the bench failed when installed. So even if the re-manufacture was top notch and better than new, you only need one hamfisted warehouse worker to drive a forklift in to a pallet or knock over a stack to undo all the precision work done by the re-manufacturer.

disneyjoe7

I never recommend any parts from Autozone or Advance Auto. Whatever I don't wish to fix a car over and over again.

Jstas

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

I never recommend any parts from Autozone or Advance Auto. Whatever I don't wish to fix a car over and over again.

Good for you.

audiobliss

Ok, so now I've got the 'new' new starter in it that just came in a few hours ago. I also put the o2 sensor back on (had to remove it to pull of the heatshield to get to the starter). Turn the key and it turns over fine. Only now it's having a very difficult time starting. After coaxing it a bit maybe four or five times, it finally starts, but runs rough, stumbles, and stalls. I immediately think I've fubar'd the o2 sensor, since that's really the only variable here. I have the steering column all disassembled, but everything's still plugged in. Well, I started it a few times for testing while I still had the o2 sensor out. I know how it performed then, how it sounded, etc, so I'll pull the o2 sensor back out and try again. So I turn the key with the o2 sensor out and it starts up fine, runs fine (as fine as it would with no o2 sensor). So that confirms the variable is the o2 sensor.

Now, what about the o2 sensor is the problem? I can think of a few scenarios:
1) In having the o2 sensor laying around and moving it from here to there I've ruined it.
2) You're NOT supposed to run the car with the o2 sensor out, and now the ECU needs to readjust things with the o2 back in place and it will take it a few minutes to sort things out.
3) A contact with plugging in the o2 sensor has gotten dirty/bent.

From a visual inspecting I'm ruling out 3. From a quick google search and inspecting the o2 sensor, I don't think 1 is it, either. It looks intact, no cracks, etc, still a dirty brownish white (not black like a lot of the google results show). So, is it possibly 2? I don't want to crank it again and run it with it running so rough if that's going to be bad for it.