What's a good power cord (no oils)

BlueFox

Mr. Sharpe wrote: »

Dang, Shunyata's definitely got the Snake look to them, hence the names of the cords.
How much does one of their cords cost? Do they have a price list? I didn't see on their site.

Didn't you read post 5?

I started with Pangea, which made an audible difference, and then went to the Shunyata Venom. Big upgrade. In fact the Venom worked so well I just finished a complete Shunyata power upgrade from wall socket, Triton power conditioner, and all Shunyata power cords; Python CX, Python Ztron, and Cobra Ztron.

However, the Venom is fine for your use now.

Mr. Sharpe

chumlie wrote: »

$125 at music direct.

Well that ain't too bad at all there.

BlueFox wrote: »

Didn't you read post 5?

I started with Pangea, which made an audible difference, and then went to the Shunyata Venom. Big upgrade. In fact the Venom worked so well I just finished a complete Shunyata power upgrade from wall socket, Triton power conditioner, and all Shunyata power cords; Python CX, Python Ztron, and Cobra Ztron.

However, the Venom is fine for your use now.

I totally missed what you said about them, Audible difference is good for sure. I'll look at those probably tomorrow on music direct. thank you.

nhhiep

Mr. Sharpe wrote: »

they have 6 gauge wire at Lowe's too;) I got some 2 gauge the other day lol

Naw but seriously it's not size that matters even though 12 would be nice and all it's the substance and umph that counts.

what "substance" are you talking about? Watt is Watt right? How about to eliminate this "power cable" altogether, would it be 100% perfect to use the identical cable in the wall already? have anyone done that test yet?

gdb

Oh my.......

DarkHorror

You aren't going to get sound quality or extra power out of a power cord unless there is something wrong with what you currently have. Now looks and stiffness is something else, I would think most should be easy enough to get them plugged in and once you have that you shouldn't have to worry about it. Looks are totally up to you, that is something you will have to look at pictures of to get a fare assessment.

If you are looking for better sound have you done room treatments yet? That makes a good bit of difference.

DMara

Mr. Sharpe wrote: »

oh yeah they work, they're just Huge... I think the 3910 insulation is as big as 2 awg lol I'm sure the wires are 12 or 10. Very stiff. the 2800 isn't nearly as big though.


I don't know guys, i've thought about making my own but the Pangea is probably what I may get, or those Rick Cullen ones. We'll see, I'll go on Audioadvisor tonight and look at their stuff, Sounds like Pangea is a good brand from the replies I've gotten so far. Thank you all so much!!!

You got to be kidding me!!! You complained about the Denon cable's stiffness but wanted to go with Pangea's. Do you know how huge and stiff the Pangea AC-9 is? :razz:

tonyb

DarkHorror wrote: »

You aren't going to get sound quality ....

Obviously, you haven't tried the right power cord then to make that statement.

heiney9

Don't argue with him Tony. He had some very derogatory things to say about cables in a few other threads. He is a naysayer without even trying anything.

gdb

Disclaimer: I am neither a naysayer OR a true believer.


DOWNTIME; A Spat Among Audiophiles Over High-End Speaker Wire

By ROY FURCHGOTT
Published: December 23, 1999

IN the last year, Lewis Lipnick has tested high-end audio cables from 28 manufacturers. As a professional musician with the National Symphony Orchestra and as an audio consultant, he counts on his exacting ear to tell him if changing cables affects the accuracy of the sound from his $25,000 Krell amplifiers.

His personal choice is a pair of speaker wires that cost $13,000. ''Anyone would have to have cloth ears not to tell the difference between cables,'' he said.

''In my professional opinion that's baloney,'' said Alan P. Kefauver, a classically trained musician and director of the Recording Arts and Sciences program at the Peabody Institute of Johns Hopkins University. ''Has the wire been cryogenically frozen? Is it flat or round? It makes no difference, unless it makes you feel better.'' His choice for speaker wire? Good-quality 16-gauge zip wire.

The disagreement would be unnotable except for one thing: experts are in agreement that most cables that claim to improve the sound of audio equipment don't. Even cables costing thousands of dollars per foot are often little more than sonic snake oil, experts say.

Consumers trying to purchase audio cables often find themselves buying high-end replacements because the only cables in the store are expensive ones.

A purchaser of an entry-level $550 stereo system might be sent home with $55 worth of the least expensive middle-quality audio cables. While experts agree that most cables make exaggerated and unfounded claims about improving sound, they cannot agree on which cables actually do improve sound and which do not.

The scientific record is unclear. So far no research paper contending to prove or disprove the value of fancy wires has been accepted by the leading industry publication, The Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, said Patricia M. MacDonald, its executive editor. She said there were dozens of reasons a research paper might not meet her journal's standards.

''I don't think anyone should infer anything from it,'' she said.

The manufacturers and sellers of audio goods like to stay above the fray. Cables are a highly lucrative item that may account for a modest percentage of sales but a greater percentage of profit.

Even audio manufacturers not directly involved in the cable business like to steer clear of the debate.

Polk Audio, a well respected manufacturer of loudspeakers in Baltimore, no longer makes cables but declined an invitation to set up a listening test in its laboratories. One reason it gave was that the test could affect relationships with audio stores. ''We would be hearing from every retailer in the country,'' said Paul Dicomo, communications director for Polk Audio.

Kerry Moyer, staff director for the Consumer Electronics Association, which represents manufacturers, said accessories were usually the highest markup items, wires included. Sales of high-margin accessories have become critical in the current market, where prices of components like receivers, amplifiers and DVD players, have had profit margins squeezed by competition.

''It becomes a question of where are we going to make a little money?'' he said. Mr. Moyer, whose $3,000 sound system uses about $300 worth of cables, said the technological superiority of a cable is not the issue -- it is the perceived value to the hobbyist.

''If someone feels good about buying it, whether it works or it doesn't, it makes them feel good,'' he said. ''I don't think we should question.''

John Dunlavy, who manufactures audiophile loudspeakers and wire to go with it, does think questioning is valid. A musician and engineer, Mr. Dunlavy said as an academic exercise he used principles of physics relating to transmission line and network theory to produce a high-end cable. ''People ask if they will hear a difference, and I tell them no,'' he said.

Mr. Dunlavy has often gathered audio critics in his Colorado Springs lab for a demonstration.

''What we do is kind of dirty and stinky,'' he said. ''We say we are starting with a 12 WAG zip cord, and we position a technician behind each speaker to change the cables out.''

The technicians hold up fancy-looking cables before they disappear behind the speakers. The critics debate the sound characteristics of each wire.

''They describe huge changes and they say, 'Oh my God, John, tell me you can hear that difference,' '' Mr. Dunlavy said. The trick is the technicians never actually change the cables, he said, adding, ''It's the placebo effect.''

This leads to disagreements based on competing science. Bruce Brisson, who owns Music Interface Technology, an ultrahigh-end wire manufacturer in Rockland, Calif., also wants to see cable charlatans revealed and may use his extensive laboratory to do it.

''I am getting ready to expose this in the year 2000,'' he said. ''People are paying a lot of money and getting nothing for it.'' But he disagrees with Mr. Dunlavy on the effectiveness of wires, saying that the theory Mr. Dunlavy uses to design his cables is not the right theory and that is why listeners cannot hear a difference.

Some scientists say it would be difficult to prove one way or another. Changing cables leaves a time lapse that makes comparison difficult. Putting several stereos side by side with the different wires would mean that the speakers would be different distances from the ear, which could have an effect. And while a switch could be made that would send a signal through each of several cables to a speaker from a single sound system, cable makers say the switch itself might spoil the advantages of their wires.

Part of the difficulty is that there are still unexplained acoustic phenomena. William Morris Hartmann, a professor of physics at Michigan State University in East Lansing, works on psycho-acoustic projects, which investigate the way sound is perceived, rather than the way it is produced.

There are examples, he said, of sounds that measure beyond the range of human hearing, and yet some people seem to perceive them. That means the market is left open to wild claims and psuedoscience. ''It's annoying, but it's hard to disprove,'' Professor Hartmann said.

Perhaps the closest thing to middle ground is the position taken by Russ Hamm, an electrical engineer whose New York company G Prime Ltd. installs digital processing equipment for studios.

Mr. Hamm said that indeed, wires do make a perceivable difference, but very little, and then only to professionals, like the engineers at BMG Music. He lent them new high-grade cables for use on roughly $250,000 of equipment. On his system, Mr. Hamm uses a specialty cable manufactured in Vienna that costs $2 a foot.

''We are talking subtle differences, but that is what the high end is all about,'' he said.

It is a subtlety he describes as a 2 percent difference on a high-end system. ''If you had a fine Bordeaux wine, how much does it matter if it's in a nice wineglass or a Riedel crystal glass?''

His advice to audiophiles: ''I would say that you want to put the first $10,000 into your equipment.''

Do It Yourself: A Little Soldering Goes a Long Way

EXPERTS who say that expensive wires will not improve the sound of your stereo still grant that cheap, thin cables with corroded ends might harm your system's sound.

But you do not have to spring for wire that costs $500 a foot. With a little soldering skill you can make a set of high-quality cables yourself.

One reason wires make a difference is that they act as resistors, blocking a bit of the current traveling, say, from the amplifier to the speaker. The less blocked, the better.

One way professionals overcome the problem is to use fatter wire, which offers less resistance.

''I would say if you are going to run longer than 10 feet, you should have at least 16-gauge wire, and if you are going to run 50 feet you need at least 12 gauge, and it doesn't matter whether it is West Penn, Belden, or if it has a fancy name on it,'' said Alan P. Kefauver, director of the Recording Arts and Sciences program at the Peabody Institute of Johns Hopkins University.

The Home Depot sells 12-gauge copper wire for about 9 cents a foot. Its 16-gauge specialty speaker wire is 16 cents a foot. The price is not necessarily an indicator that the wire will better serve the purpose, since the smaller the gauge number the fatter the wire.

Good connectors on the wire ends matter, and professionals say the gold-plated ends do serve a purpose. Gold will not tarnish, and there is no question that oxidation can cause a bad connection. Experts argue whether spade lug end or banana plugs are better. The latter are a tad more convenient to use. Radio Shack sells 12-gauge banana plugs for $5.99 each.

''Solder the connections with high silver content solder,'' said John Dunlavy, a speaker designer. Most solder fits the bill, he said.

John Storyk, who began his career designing recording studios with Jimi Hendrix's Electric Lady studio, offered two suggestions: ''Make sure the cable lengths are equal. Take the money you save and buy more CD's.''

gdb

I WISH I could hear the differences, real or imagined ! Tinnitus is something I wouldn't even wish on F1 or nooshie !

heiney9

^^ That article has been floating around here for years. I proves and/or disproves nothing. It's all opinion just like most everything else said about cables. An opinion should be derived from experience. Some of the people in the above article have experience to make such opinions and some don't. Just like the people here on CP.

H9

gdb

''What we do is kind of dirty and stinky,'' Like swapping instant for the real coffee, only better !

gdb

heiney9 wrote: »

^^ That article has been floating around here for years. I proves and/or disproves nothing. It's all opinion just like most everything else said about cables. An opinion should be derived from experience. Some of the people in the above article have experience to make such opinions and some don't. Just like the people here on CP.

H9

And, your point is........?

gdb

A short follow up...........


NY Times Rekindles Cable Debate with "Circuits" Story


By Barry Willis ? Posted: Dec 26, 1999

Do high-end cables make an audible difference? Or are they cosmetic enhancements, like fancy wheels on high-performance cars? The New York Times, the nation's foremost newspaper, took up the issue in a December 23 piece in "Circuits," its weekly technology section.
Titled "A Spat Among Audiophiles Over High-End Speaker Wire," the story, by Times reporter Roy Furchgott, quotes National Symphony Orchestra musician and former Stereophile reviewer and musician-in-residence Lewis Lipnick as saying that anyone who can't hear the difference between cables must have "cloth ears." Lipnick prefers a pair of unnamed $13,000 cables to deliver current to his speakers from his Krell amplifiers.

Leading with such an example induces sticker shock among readers and helps reinforce the lunatic-fringe stereotype of audiophiles. Furchgott goes the predictable route by getting quotes from engineers and academics who dismiss the whole notion of the audibility of cables. Alan P. Kefauver, director of the Recording Arts and Sciences program at the Peabody Institute of Johns Hopkins University, is one of them. "Baloney," he calls the whole idea, stating that 16-gauge zip cord is good enough for him.

Furchgott's story has rekindled one of the longest-running and most contentious debates in the audio world. A flurry of comments by audio-industry professionals immediately appeared on the Internet?most of them extremely well-reasoned and politely expressed. The consensus seems to be: Yes, of course, cables make a difference; and yes, for the most part they are overpriced. But pricing exotic items beyond the reach of the masses is basic psychology in the marketing of high-end anything?cars or caviar, art or audio.

The issue has never been resolved to anyone's satisfaction, especially that of measurement-conscious engineers?and Furchgott rightly notes that no one has ever devised a test that establishes beyond doubt the audible difference between cables. Some manufacturers, like AudioQuest's Bill Low and Kimber Kable's Ray Kimber, conduct quite convincing demonstrations using inexpensive electronics. Kimber presents a fairly coherent theory as to why cables sound different, and even goes so far as to suggest that they might make a bigger difference with inexpensive electronics than they do with ultra-high-end gear. Others offer (as Goertz did at a recent CES) visual and audible A/B comparisons using headphones and oscilloscopes.

Almost all journalists in high-end audio agree that any well-designed comparison will reveal differences. Are those differences improvements? If so, are their costs justifiable? Will there ever be an end to this debate? Not as long as writers find the subject intriguing enough to stir the embers into flames.

heiney9

gdb wrote: »

And, your point is........?

Umm....that most have read it before since it's been posted here umpteen times and it proves and disproves nothing. It's not even a great discussion, pretty superficial.

H9

gdb

heiney9 wrote: »

Umm....that most have read it before since it's been posted here umpteen times and it proves and disproves nothing. It's not even a great discussion, pretty superficial.

H9

Is that your opinion yer stating.....or...... fact?

F1nut

gdb wrote: »

I WISH I could hear the differences, real or imagined ! Tinnitus is something I wouldn't even wish on F1 or nooshie !

Since you admit that you can't hear worth a squat, one has to wonder why you post on an audio forum since your opinion on the subject matter is completely worthless.

tonyb

heiney9 wrote: »

Don't argue with him Tony. He had some very derogatory things to say about cables in a few other threads. He is a naysayer without even trying anything.

Eh...not trying to argue with anyone Brock, just seems to me anyway that if the man can hear differences in room treatments, he sure can hear 'em in cables. But then again, and is always the crux of the matter, one has to try some different cables first.

gdb

F1nut wrote: »

Since you admit that you can't hear worth a squat, one has to wonder why you post on an audio forum since your opinion on the subject matter is completely worthless.

I enjoy good music and can still hear it well enough, even over your constant static !!


Edit: IF you'll read where I stated an opinion, I'll be ETERNALLY grateful to ya !!

DMara

The OP innocently asked for power cords' suggestions, and of course, the thread ends up with a cable war of words :biggrin:

gdb

What else is expected of "audiophiliacs" ???? You're always gonna have cable debate article naysayers. They find the Emperors's new cables concept irritating and threatening. WTHell...... I don't need or deserve anything more exotic than my second-hand Audioquest stuff !

FTGV

lil skippy wrote: »

... I don't need or deserve anything.

At least your honest.:razz:

gdb

Um....not according to Effie One Nut !!

audiocr381ve

Literally laughed out loud that yet another thread about cables is causing a stir!

Mr. Sharpe

DMara wrote: »

You got to be kidding me!!! You complained about the Denon cable's stiffness but wanted to go with Pangea's. Do you know how huge and stiff the Pangea AC-9 is? :razz:

so now mentioning stiffness of a cord is complaining?

heiney9 wrote: »

Don't argue with him Tony. He had some very derogatory things to say about cables in a few other threads. He is a naysayer without even trying anything.

I'm a cable believer.

F1nut wrote: »

Since you admit that you can't hear worth a squat, one has to wonder why you post on an audio forum since your opinion on the subject matter is completely worthless.

gdb wrote: »

Um....not according to Effie One Nut !!

Move on. we are not trying to start crap here about whether or not a cable makes a difference, I asked what a good power cord company is and got what I asked for.

Please, feel free to continue to gripe about argue about it. I'll have no part, F1 mentioned two good companies and so did Bluefox among a few others. Thank you for your replies, the relevant ones at least

Mr. Sharpe

Face wrote: »

A little more expensive, but the Wireworld Aurora is fantastic for the money.

That's actually not bad at all! what? around $180 right?

Mr. Sharpe

I've decided on Pangea cords, just not sure of which ones to get:( I was thinking the AC-9 for my denon 3805 but would that be too much? or would an AC-14 work for it? What it came with was a 14 awg cord and so did the 3910. I know an AC14 for the 3910 but would that one be fine for the receiver?

Dawgfish

It all depends on how much room you have in your rack behind your reciever. The AC-14 will definitely be a big improvement over the stock cord and the AC-9 would be a bigger one yet. I run both of these in one of my systems. The thing you have to keep in mind though is the AC-9 is very large diameter (it's actually a 7 guage wire) and is fairly stiff. If you do not have a lot of room to work with behind the reciever with your set-up it could cause you problems. In this case the AC-14 would work just fine and be a big improvement over stock. The AC-14SE is noticably better, so if you're willing to spend a little more cash, you will notice a definite improvement. The moral of this story is if you have the room go for the AC-9, if not the AC-14 or AC-14SE will work just fine and be a definite improvement.

Mr. Sharpe

Then I'll dish out the extra $$ for a 9 most likely. Thank you very much!