New 2012 Pioneer Elite Receivers

leroyjr1
leroyjr1 Posts: 8,785
edited May 2012 in Electronics
Looks like Pioneer added a new flagship model. ( Sc-68 ) Looks like they took Ultra2 from the SC-x7 series receiver and added it to the more expensive sc-x8 series

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/AV-Receivers/Elite+Receivers
Post edited by leroyjr1 on

Comments

  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,480
    edited May 2012
    Why don't they rate the digital amps 20hz-20khz instead of at 1Khz? All of the Elite stuff is top shelf from a build prospective so why not give true 20-20 power ratings sort of like some NAD gear?
  • leroyjr1
    leroyjr1 Posts: 8,785
    edited May 2012
    SQ wise there's not a huge difference from the start of the sc-07 series to now. One could own the 05/07 series and not be missing much.
  • Drenis
    Drenis Posts: 2,871
    edited May 2012
    How does the SC units produce 140x9 all channels driven with a power consumption of 370 Watts?
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,480
    edited May 2012
    Drenis wrote: »
    How does the SC units produce 140x9 all channels driven with a power consumption of 370 Watts?

    It don't that is why they rate them @ 1Khz for 140watts, anyways class D (digital) amps use much less in the power consumption area.
  • malvrich
    malvrich Posts: 49
    edited May 2012
    Oh and be sure to check how many channels that power rating represents. It's probably for "2 channels driven @ 1 Khz" and MAY even be into a 6 Ohm load.
    Complete male bovine excrement as the total output from 20-20K with all channels driven into 8 ohm loads will be laughable on many units.
    Not knocking this Pioneer because I'm not familiar with it, but current day amplifier ratings systems are a joke.
    If you want a really good laugh, check out car amp specs :)
  • Tankman
    Tankman Posts: 419
    edited May 2012
    Drenis wrote: »
    How does the SC units produce 140x9 all channels driven with a power consumption of 370 Watts?
    .I do not think that unit is capable of putting out 140 x 9.I would bet my last dollar it is only into two channels..My H/K3490 puts out 120 into two channels each and over 200 watts into 4 ohms both channels.It would be more like about 55 too 65 watts into 9 channels if that.With only drawing 370 AC watts.
  • Drenis
    Drenis Posts: 2,871
    edited May 2012
    If class D can produce a constant 140w all channels driven with only a 360w power consumption max, that's impressive. I haven't followed class D very closely other then an interest in W4S gear.

    The SC-07 claims 140 for all channels driven or 2 channel. Regardless its the same output. And yet just over 300w consumption. I'll need to read up on class D does this.
  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited May 2012
    Looks like a nice unit. Wonder if Dan will do a "review". As for me, I'll never spend 2500 on an AVR (too cheap). That's why I still run my old Onkyo 805 (in its time--almost equal in sound to the higher 905 that was over twice its MSRP and bought refurb with a one-year warranty for less than....wait for it...420--there's your "value" product).

    I leave the "endless" AVR upgrades to you boys with the off-shore bank accounts! lol

    cnh
    Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!

    Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
    [sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash]
  • Sherardp
    Sherardp Posts: 8,038
    edited May 2012
    Would love to get a look at the 68? Is pricing available on these yet?
    Shoot the jumper.....................BALLIN.............!!!!!

    Home Theater Pics in the Showcase :cool:

    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showcase/view.php?userid=73580
  • PrazVT
    PrazVT Posts: 1,606
    edited May 2012
    Wow SC-6 series already? thought I just bought my SC-57 recently - interesting. Specs look good ... looks like they finally added a graphical overlay. The asynch DAC looks interesting if you're connecting your pc.
    ALL BOXED UP for a while until I save up for a new place :(

    Home Theater:
    KEF Q900s / MIT Shotgun S3 / MIT CVT2 ICs | KEF Q600C | Polk FXi5 | BJC Wire | Signal / AQ ICs | Shunyata / Pangea PCs | Pioneer Elite SC 57 | Parasound NC2100 Pre | NAD M25 | Marantz SA8001 | Schiit Gungnir DAC | SB Touch

    2 Channel:
    Polk LSi9 (xo mods), Polk DSW MicroPro 2000 sub | NAD c375BEE | W4S DAC1 | SB Touch | Marantz SA-8001 | MIT AVt 2 | Kimber Hero / AQ / Signal ICs | Shunyata / Signal PCs
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,902
    edited May 2012
    Why do you guys keep equating power consumption with power output ? Two different animals. Class D amps run more efficiently than A/B amps, less energy wasted means more power is actually useable. Class D amps like those in Pioneers SC models drop less power in an all channel driven scenario than other avr's and their weeker power supplies.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,032
    edited May 2012
    I've been waiting for these to finally hit the website. I don't have a release date yet but I can't wait to get my hands of the SC-68.
    Just for those who don't understand class D amps , they don't waste power like class A-B design amps do. They are I believe it's 95 or higher % efficient . You don't have to question the Elite power section. From the SC-07 to the SC-57 , they all have performed in large theater rooms with ease.
    Also the new SC-68 is finally rated at 4 ohm , that's a pretty big thing but I knew that from the SC_07 when I drove the hell out of my Dynaudio Audience series theater system I had that was 86db. It didn't even got hot.

    I'm hoping for discrete sub 1 and 2 out's so you can test tone them discretely. I see no reason for dual sub out's other then to not use a Y splitter. It would make life so much easier for people who run 2 subs. It would make my life a lot easier in the field and at home. The Mighty SC-09 did this years ago and I thought it was the coolest thing ever.

    As soon as we get one you can assure I will take one home for at least a full review and possibly keep it. The dual sub out will greatly effect my decision. Also They are finally doing multi room HDMI , thats pretty badass. I could use that as well as I do Component video distribution now. I'd like to replace it with HDMI. Yeah there are so many ways to get this done but I like the idea of a receiver doing this. I can see so many ways of benefitting from this in the field and home.

    Bring it on !!!
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • leroyjr1
    leroyjr1 Posts: 8,785
    edited May 2012
    But again not a huge upgrade over previous years. Let's see sub calibration or being able to set different crossover points. They finally added 11.2 but still years behind onkyo and Denon.
  • Tankman
    Tankman Posts: 419
    edited May 2012
    tonyb wrote: »
    Why do you guys keep equating power consumption with power output ? Two different animals. Class D amps run more efficiently than A/B amps, less energy wasted means more power is actually useable. Class D amps like those in Pioneers SC models drop less power in an all channel driven scenario than other avr's and their weeker power supplies.
    Thanks Tonyb...I was hoping one of you ole timers would come in and help with the OP post.I went back and read up on class D amps and you are spot on as usual.I know f1nut or h9 would know a lot about amp class's that could help the OP out on this.:cool:
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,902
    edited May 2012
    As far as receivers go, your looking at a class A/B amp or class D. The class D delivers it's power smoother and more consistant due to being efficient. Class A, is more so refered to in seperate power amps and run hot as hell but many would take their sound over the rest. Just because a class D amp holds it's power better in an all channels driven scenario, doesn't necessarily means it sounds better than a class A/B either. Again, don't put so much weight on watts, which seems like many do when hunting receivers. A BMW costs more than a Ford for a reason even if they have the same horsepower and both get you from point A to point B.

    Many other kind of amps too especially when you start talkin' tubes but the OP isn't interested in that from what I can tell. I think he's more focused on receivers.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited May 2012
    Someone should do a sticky on D-amplification. Tony and Dan are right and there is a lot of confusion. I used to have one of the early Panasonic D-receivers. It drew a mere 135 watts from the wall and was rated 100 watts x 6 at 6 ohms. I ran a set of large JBL towers R/L (L80ts) a Pioneer center and two Ratshack Minimus 7 sats along with a Sony sub (yeah it was my very "first" Dolby digital surround ssystem for you youngsters). The less than 10 pound Panny had NO problem driving the JBLs and driving them hard. Bench tests showed that that tiny Panny could put out an honest 78 watts x 5 at 8 ohms continuous. Which was pretty incredible.

    Then you have the entire question of how amp and receiver manufacturers can rate High Current amps at HICC 60, 70 and 80 amp peaks when household outlets max out at 15 amps? A lot is involved here with transformers, storage capacitance, etc. Let alone the debates that rage on and are--eerily reminiscent of our vaunted "cable" debates. lol Because a lot of people will just say "ya can't get 20 amps out of a 15 amp circuit" and others will argue (that's not what's going on here!).

    In any case, a sticky is in order.

    cnh
    Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!

    Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
    [sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash]
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,902
    edited May 2012
    Because amps store power guys. Which is why a rated consumption is useless. Same with a receiver, the amp section in a receiver stores power so it has some backup to draw on when the demand arises. Now, thats why so many of you hear a difference in your seperate power amp verse your common AVR. A seperate amp has bigger caps, bigger transformers, heck, bigger everything and can store and deliver lots more current, notice I said "current", than your standard AVR.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 27,969
    edited May 2012
    Class D by design adds some artifacts to your high end... if you have an extremely high resolution system and full hearing capacity up to 20khz you may dislike class D amps, I imagine higher end amps dont have this problem as much but most all class D amps incorporate a filter to get rid of these artifacts...

    Quick snippet from a quick google search -

    Class D – This class of amplifier is a switching or PWM amplifier as mentioned above. This class of amplifier is the main focus of this application note. In this type of amplifier, the switches are either fully on or fully off, significantly reducing the power losses in the output devices. Efficiencies of 90-95% are possible. The audio signal is used to modulate a PWM carrier signal which drives the output devices, with the last stage being a low pass filter to remove the high frequency PWM carrier frequency.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 4,981
    edited May 2012
    Those Elite AVR's are excellent performers but the Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A3010 has really peaked my interest. I'm still looking so the Elite's aren't out of the picture. It's a tough choice with all the great competition out there.
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,034
    edited May 2012
    I love the features of the Pioneer Elite SC-37 I have, and see no need to upgrade. As far as the amp section is concerned, I have yet to listen to it, as Sunfire Sigs rock my world.:cheesygrin:
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,709
    edited May 2012
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Why don't they rate the digital amps 20hz-20khz instead of at 1Khz? All of the Elite stuff is top shelf from a build prospective so why not give true 20-20 power ratings sort of like some NAD gear?

    The SC-37 is rated "140 x 7 (20Hz - 20kHz)", but it uses different class D amps.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,709
    edited May 2012
    malvrich wrote: »
    Oh and be sure to check how many channels that power rating represents. It's probably for "2 channels driven @ 1 Khz" and MAY even be into a 6 Ohm load.
    Complete male bovine excrement as the total output from 20-20K with all channels driven into 8 ohm loads will be laughable on many units.
    Not knocking this Pioneer because I'm not familiar with it, but current day amplifier ratings systems are a joke.
    If you want a really good laugh, check out car amp specs :)

    So, you're not familiar with the Pioneer AVR's, but still comment on them. I imagine you're trying to pull your foot out of your mouth right about now.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • Drenis
    Drenis Posts: 2,871
    edited May 2012
    I hope I didn't open a can of worms regarding class D. I did some reading last night on the topic. Pretty much most of what has been said here. I guess I associated class D consumption with the other types of amps.
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,480
    edited May 2012
    F1nut wrote: »
    The SC-37 is rated "140 x 7 (20Hz -20khz)", but it uses different class D amps.

    True correct me if I'm wrong. The first pioneers used amps bought from Bang & olufsen but the past 2 series are Pioneer design. Either way it now seems the new selling point is 140watts where several years past it was 100-120watts. Yes I know watts aren't everything but true power ratings are a plus. In years past it seems that only the lower quality products used the 1Khz rating to make themselves look better than the were. That being said I know Pioneer Elite has ALWAYS been top shelf build quality.
  • malvrich
    malvrich Posts: 49
    edited May 2012
    F1nut, my intention was to offer some useful insight. If it proves useless then it proves useless.
    I don't see that your reprimand offers much benefit to anyone here, on the other hand.
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,034
    edited May 2012
    malvrich wrote: »
    F1nut, my intention was to offer some useful insight. If it proves useless then it proves useless.
    I don't see that your reprimand offers much benefit to anyone here, on the other hand.

    Translation of the above...
    Yeah man.. I guess I should think BEFORE I post and if I am going to contribute to a conversation about which I know nothing, I should ask questions or do some homework first. Thanks for pointing that out F1... you're the best!:cheesygrin:
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,480
    edited May 2012