New 2012 Pioneer Elite Receivers

leroyjr1

Looks like Pioneer added a new flagship model. ( Sc-68 ) Looks like they took Ultra2 from the SC-x7 series receiver and added it to the more expensive sc-x8 series

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/AV-Receivers/Elite+Receivers

pitdogg2

Why don't they rate the digital amps 20hz-20khz instead of at 1Khz? All of the Elite stuff is top shelf from a build prospective so why not give true 20-20 power ratings sort of like some NAD gear?

leroyjr1

SQ wise there's not a huge difference from the start of the sc-07 series to now. One could own the 05/07 series and not be missing much.

Drenis

How does the SC units produce 140x9 all channels driven with a power consumption of 370 Watts?

pitdogg2

Drenis wrote: »

How does the SC units produce 140x9 all channels driven with a power consumption of 370 Watts?

It don't that is why they rate them @ 1Khz for 140watts, anyways class D (digital) amps use much less in the power consumption area.

malvrich

Oh and be sure to check how many channels that power rating represents. It's probably for "2 channels driven @ 1 Khz" and MAY even be into a 6 Ohm load.
Complete male bovine excrement as the total output from 20-20K with all channels driven into 8 ohm loads will be laughable on many units.
Not knocking this Pioneer because I'm not familiar with it, but current day amplifier ratings systems are a joke.
If you want a really good laugh, check out car amp specs

Tankman

Drenis wrote: »

How does the SC units produce 140x9 all channels driven with a power consumption of 370 Watts?

.I do not think that unit is capable of putting out 140 x 9.I would bet my last dollar it is only into two channels..My H/K3490 puts out 120 into two channels each and over 200 watts into 4 ohms both channels.It would be more like about 55 too 65 watts into 9 channels if that.With only drawing 370 AC watts.

Drenis

If class D can produce a constant 140w all channels driven with only a 360w power consumption max, that's impressive. I haven't followed class D very closely other then an interest in W4S gear.

The SC-07 claims 140 for all channels driven or 2 channel. Regardless its the same output. And yet just over 300w consumption. I'll need to read up on class D does this.

cnh

Looks like a nice unit. Wonder if Dan will do a "review". As for me, I'll never spend 2500 on an AVR (too cheap). That's why I still run my old Onkyo 805 (in its time--almost equal in sound to the higher 905 that was over twice its MSRP and bought refurb with a one-year warranty for less than....wait for it...420--there's your "value" product).

I leave the "endless" AVR upgrades to you boys with the off-shore bank accounts! lol

cnh

Sherardp

Would love to get a look at the 68? Is pricing available on these yet?

PrazVT

Wow SC-6 series already? thought I just bought my SC-57 recently - interesting. Specs look good ... looks like they finally added a graphical overlay. The asynch DAC looks interesting if you're connecting your pc.

tonyb

Why do you guys keep equating power consumption with power output ? Two different animals. Class D amps run more efficiently than A/B amps, less energy wasted means more power is actually useable. Class D amps like those in Pioneers SC models drop less power in an all channel driven scenario than other avr's and their weeker power supplies.

mantis

I've been waiting for these to finally hit the website. I don't have a release date yet but I can't wait to get my hands of the SC-68.
Just for those who don't understand class D amps , they don't waste power like class A-B design amps do. They are I believe it's 95 or higher % efficient . You don't have to question the Elite power section. From the SC-07 to the SC-57 , they all have performed in large theater rooms with ease.
Also the new SC-68 is finally rated at 4 ohm , that's a pretty big thing but I knew that from the SC_07 when I drove the hell out of my Dynaudio Audience series theater system I had that was 86db. It didn't even got hot.

I'm hoping for discrete sub 1 and 2 out's so you can test tone them discretely. I see no reason for dual sub out's other then to not use a Y splitter. It would make life so much easier for people who run 2 subs. It would make my life a lot easier in the field and at home. The Mighty SC-09 did this years ago and I thought it was the coolest thing ever.

As soon as we get one you can assure I will take one home for at least a full review and possibly keep it. The dual sub out will greatly effect my decision. Also They are finally doing multi room HDMI , thats pretty badass. I could use that as well as I do Component video distribution now. I'd like to replace it with HDMI. Yeah there are so many ways to get this done but I like the idea of a receiver doing this. I can see so many ways of benefitting from this in the field and home.

Bring it on !!!

leroyjr1

But again not a huge upgrade over previous years. Let's see sub calibration or being able to set different crossover points. They finally added 11.2 but still years behind onkyo and Denon.

Tankman

tonyb wrote: »

Why do you guys keep equating power consumption with power output ? Two different animals. Class D amps run more efficiently than A/B amps, less energy wasted means more power is actually useable. Class D amps like those in Pioneers SC models drop less power in an all channel driven scenario than other avr's and their weeker power supplies.

Thanks Tonyb...I was hoping one of you ole timers would come in and help with the OP post.I went back and read up on class D amps and you are spot on as usual.I know f1nut or h9 would know a lot about amp class's that could help the OP out on this.:cool:

tonyb

As far as receivers go, your looking at a class A/B amp or class D. The class D delivers it's power smoother and more consistant due to being efficient. Class A, is more so refered to in seperate power amps and run hot as hell but many would take their sound over the rest. Just because a class D amp holds it's power better in an all channels driven scenario, doesn't necessarily means it sounds better than a class A/B either. Again, don't put so much weight on watts, which seems like many do when hunting receivers. A BMW costs more than a Ford for a reason even if they have the same horsepower and both get you from point A to point B.

Many other kind of amps too especially when you start talkin' tubes but the OP isn't interested in that from what I can tell. I think he's more focused on receivers.

cnh

Someone should do a sticky on D-amplification. Tony and Dan are right and there is a lot of confusion. I used to have one of the early Panasonic D-receivers. It drew a mere 135 watts from the wall and was rated 100 watts x 6 at 6 ohms. I ran a set of large JBL towers R/L (L80ts) a Pioneer center and two Ratshack Minimus 7 sats along with a Sony sub (yeah it was my very "first" Dolby digital surround ssystem for you youngsters). The less than 10 pound Panny had NO problem driving the JBLs and driving them hard. Bench tests showed that that tiny Panny could put out an honest 78 watts x 5 at 8 ohms continuous. Which was pretty incredible.

Then you have the entire question of how amp and receiver manufacturers can rate High Current amps at HICC 60, 70 and 80 amp peaks when household outlets max out at 15 amps? A lot is involved here with transformers, storage capacitance, etc. Let alone the debates that rage on and are--eerily reminiscent of our vaunted "cable" debates. lol Because a lot of people will just say "ya can't get 20 amps out of a 15 amp circuit" and others will argue (that's not what's going on here!).

In any case, a sticky is in order.

cnh

tonyb

Because amps store power guys. Which is why a rated consumption is useless. Same with a receiver, the amp section in a receiver stores power so it has some backup to draw on when the demand arises. Now, thats why so many of you hear a difference in your seperate power amp verse your common AVR. A seperate amp has bigger caps, bigger transformers, heck, bigger everything and can store and deliver lots more current, notice I said "current", than your standard AVR.

VR3

Class D by design adds some artifacts to your high end... if you have an extremely high resolution system and full hearing capacity up to 20khz you may dislike class D amps, I imagine higher end amps dont have this problem as much but most all class D amps incorporate a filter to get rid of these artifacts...

Quick snippet from a quick google search -

Class D – This class of amplifier is a switching or PWM amplifier as mentioned above. This class of amplifier is the main focus of this application note. In this type of amplifier, the switches are either fully on or fully off, significantly reducing the power losses in the output devices. Efficiencies of 90-95% are possible. The audio signal is used to modulate a PWM carrier signal which drives the output devices, with the last stage being a low pass filter to remove the high frequency PWM carrier frequency.

pearsall001

Those Elite AVR's are excellent performers but the Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A3010 has really peaked my interest. I'm still looking so the Elite's aren't out of the picture. It's a tough choice with all the great competition out there.

nooshinjohn

I love the features of the Pioneer Elite SC-37 I have, and see no need to upgrade. As far as the amp section is concerned, I have yet to listen to it, as Sunfire Sigs rock my world.:cheesygrin:

F1nut

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Why don't they rate the digital amps 20hz-20khz instead of at 1Khz? All of the Elite stuff is top shelf from a build prospective so why not give true 20-20 power ratings sort of like some NAD gear?

The SC-37 is rated "140 x 7 (20Hz - 20kHz)", but it uses different class D amps.

F1nut

malvrich wrote: »

Oh and be sure to check how many channels that power rating represents. It's probably for "2 channels driven @ 1 Khz" and MAY even be into a 6 Ohm load.
Complete male bovine excrement as the total output from 20-20K with all channels driven into 8 ohm loads will be laughable on many units.
Not knocking this Pioneer because I'm not familiar with it, but current day amplifier ratings systems are a joke.
If you want a really good laugh, check out car amp specs

So, you're not familiar with the Pioneer AVR's, but still comment on them. I imagine you're trying to pull your foot out of your mouth right about now.

Drenis

I hope I didn't open a can of worms regarding class D. I did some reading last night on the topic. Pretty much most of what has been said here. I guess I associated class D consumption with the other types of amps.

pitdogg2

F1nut wrote: »

The SC-37 is rated "140 x 7 (20Hz -20khz)", but it uses different class D amps.

True correct me if I'm wrong. The first pioneers used amps bought from Bang & olufsen but the past 2 series are Pioneer design. Either way it now seems the new selling point is 140watts where several years past it was 100-120watts. Yes I know watts aren't everything but true power ratings are a plus. In years past it seems that only the lower quality products used the 1Khz rating to make themselves look better than the were. That being said I know Pioneer Elite has ALWAYS been top shelf build quality.

malvrich

F1nut, my intention was to offer some useful insight. If it proves useless then it proves useless.
I don't see that your reprimand offers much benefit to anyone here, on the other hand.

nooshinjohn

malvrich wrote: »

F1nut, my intention was to offer some useful insight. If it proves useless then it proves useless.
I don't see that your reprimand offers much benefit to anyone here, on the other hand.

Translation of the above...

Yeah man.. I guess I should think BEFORE I post and if I am going to contribute to a conversation about which I know nothing, I should ask questions or do some homework first. Thanks for pointing that out F1... you're the best!:cheesygrin:

pitdogg2

^^^^lol^^^^