2B's back in business, but somethings wrong...

audiocr381ve

Positioning the CRS+'s did help the bass quite a bit, but I decided to throw the 2B's back in the mix to see how they did and Mr. Bass came knocking at my door. The 2B's hit low and pretty nicely. Definitely more balanced in my room so I'm keeping them and getting rid of the CRS+'s since I have new speakers on the way.

Here's the weird thing, the 2B's imaging seems really off. Vocals are smeared and not focused in the center. I'm going to recheck my wiring but has anybody found a problem like this? What was the fix?

Mr. Bubbles

I had a similar situation when I first got my SRS's. It turned out to be an oxidized connection on the interconnect terminal of the right cabinet. A poor connection anywhere in the interconnect or dimensional circuit could have caused the same thing. The 2's are awesome. I enjoy my 2A's better than just about anything else I own currently.

Good luck.

transmaster

You alway need to have Caig Deoxit on hand, it is just the ticket for problems like this. don't get it in the spray can you waste most of it only tiny amounts are actually needed. I like either the needle dispenser, great for pot's, or the brush dispenser, very useful on RCA, spade. and other cable terminations Parts Express has it, what you get in the two before mentioned dispensers will last a long, long time.

audiocr381ve

Thanks guys. I do have Deoxit, now you can suggest a place to use it to help me with the problem? :cheesygrin:

I'm tired of opening the speakers up, I might take a look at them tonight.

heiney9

If you do the mods correctly you won't have to open up the speakers several times :razz: :twisted:

Based on your description I have no idea what suggestions to make. Because I have no idea what you've done to them, how they were moved, if they have been used since you moved, where they are postioned, what gear you are using, what cables you are using, if they are pin/pin or pin/blade, is the I/C original or homemade, etc, etc, etc.

I just know you have had a constant battle with any SDA in your possession since day 1 and I am sorry, but I just don't understand it.

Deoxit obviously goes on your major connectors, I'd start with the outside ones since you hate opening up your speakers once again.

H9

P.s. Plus your descriptions are vague, "just off", have no idea what that means. You do say vocals are "smeared and off center", really don't know what that means in context of anything. Not trying to be difficult at all, just realize a sentence about your issues is hardly enough info for someone to seriously help you.

"my car shudders and makes a funny noise"............what could be wrong? See what I mean

Conradicles

SDA's + audiocr381ve = DRAMA

(I put a smile)

On a serious note I hope you get it resolved.
Enjoy.

heiney9

Maybe try room treatments................there that's a "go to" answer. :cheesygrin:

H9

sda2mike

leave em alone...forget about them for 4 or 5 days...you'll thank me

audiocr381ve

Whoa calm down there kimosabe! Do you want to know the color of my underwear too?! Good grief. Remember, you're not obligated to help especially if you can't do so with out making someone feel inferior first. You're the master over-complicator! Let me put it this way, you make people not feel safe to ask questions. Is that the guy you wanna be? Making people do this? >>>> That's me. Crying. Thanks a lot!


Mr. Bubbles had a great suggestion and didn't need to know my social security number. Just trying to get these to sound right. sda2mike, that's a great idea.

heiney9

Pointing out that you haven't given but a sentence about what's wrong is trying to feel superior? Pehaps you should back it up a bit kimosabe. I'm out of this one, obviously no matter how I respond it am the :evil: one. Forgive me for trying to coax more info from you so I could make some suggestions.

Remember; "my car shudders and makes a funny noise" please help me figure out what's wrong.

H9

transmaster

There is Deoxit and Deoxit Gold. Gold is intended for new connections to prevent evil from getting started. If you have anything with socketed IC Gold is a God send.

audiocr381ve

heiney9 wrote: »

Pointing out that you haven't given but a sentence about what's wrong is trying to feel superior? Pehaps you should back it up a bit kimosabe. I'm out of this one, obviously no matter how I respond it am the :evil: one. Forgive me for trying to coax more info from you so I could make some suggestions.

Remember; "my car shudders and makes a funny noise" please help me figure out what's wrong.

H9

Car = 1 billion possibilities
SDA's = 2-3 possibilities

lol, both exaggerations.

Man you like to play both wolf and sheep roles at the flip of a switch. Amazing. Still love you

audiocr381ve

transmaster wrote: »

There is Deoxit and Deoxit Gold. Gold is intended for new connections to prevent evil from getting started. If you have anything with socketed IC Gold is a God send.

Thanks transmaster, I have both. Gonna put them to use if I find anything oxidizing.

heiney9

audiocr381ve wrote: »

Car = 1 billion possibilities
SDA's = 2-3 possibilities

lol, both exaggerations.

Man you like to play both wolf and sheep roles at the flip of a switch. Amazing. Still love you

My car analogy wasn't meant to be taken "literally" but to emphasize how ludicris a very vague description of a problem leads to very non-specific shots in the dark. Nothing more, nothing less. Deoxit is a valid suggestion, but highly unlikely that's what's causing it, but it never hurts to clean up connections. Just cleaned some pins on a pair of noisy tubes last night, worked like a charm. But cleaning tube pins to alleviate an issue is a far cry from putting it on connections like speaker cables and I/C's unless there is some visual oxidation.

Knock yourself out.

I still think "room treatments" based on the description "just off and smearing vocals"

H9

audiocr381ve

heiney9 wrote: »

My car analogy wasn't meant to be taken "literally" but to emphasize how ludicris a very vague description of a problem leads to very non-specific shots in the dark. Nothing more, nothing less. Deoxit is a valid suggestion, but highly unlikely that's what's causing it, but it never hurts to clean up connections. Just cleaned some pins on a pair of noisy tubes last night, worked like a charm. But cleaning tube pins to alleviate an issue is a far cry from putting it on connections like speaker cables and I/C's unless there is some visual oxidation.

Knock yourself out.

I still think "room treatments" based on the description "just off and smearing vocals"

H9

What's weird is that the CRS+'s didn't do it. And I'm using 90% of the parts taken from them with the exception of the MW6503 stereo drivers now installed. I'm guessing there's a problem with the 6503's. I'm going to check connections later tonight.

I completely overhauled the crossovers. Clarity Cap PX throughout and the TL mod with the 5.8ohm cap and 2.7ohm resistor in the tweeter circuit. I also have a 0.22ohm Mills resistor in place of the polyswitch. The pin/blade sockets were replaced with Cardas binding posts. These 2BTL's have Larry's rings and new gaskets throughout.

Room treatments are on the way!

heiney9

Did they work properly up until you just put them back in the rig? Or is this the first time listening to them? Did you listen to them before the move? Is this the first time listening to them since the move?

H9

audiocr381ve

This is the first time listening to them since the move (since late Feb.). I never had them properly place before the move so I'm not sure if the vocals were shifted left then. They're super bright in this room too. Sheesh. Maybe it is all drama with me and these speakers, or I just have bad luck with **** rooms.

heiney9

So the x-overs and tweeters have atleast a couple hundered hours on them and are broken in? Because if not, I'd say that's why they sound bright. Again, not knowing the entire scenario with these it could be several things or a single thing. Maybe make sure nothing came loose in the move. Start with the easiest and work towards the hardest to try and eliminate some stuff.

Can't rally compare them to where you had them before. You are starting over in a new room and with some different gear, IIRC. Are you using the Keces dac at the moment? Back to square one

H9

audiocr381ve

heiney9 wrote: »

So the x-overs and tweeters have atleast a couple hundered hours on them and are broken in? Because if not, I'd say that's why they sound bright. Again, not knowing the entire scenario with these it could be several things or a single thing. Maybe make sure nothing came loose in the move. Start with the easiest and work towards the hardest to try and eliminate some stuff.

Can't rally compare them to where you had them before. You are starting over in a new room and with some different gear, IIRC. Are you using the Keces dac at the moment? Back to square one

H9

Now you have me thinking...

I put in .22 resistors in the tweeter circuit because they were really bright and that was about 3 days ago in the CRS+'s. Obviously, that transferred over to the 2B's when I swapped them out. I can't even remember when I detected this brightness. Maybe when I put the Adcom back in the system? It may be the Keces that is adding a bit of harshness up top, or the Adcom. This is my first time doing the PC audio thing so it could even be the flac files on my computer.

bmbguy

You can't even rule out your ears. My right ear is somewhat 'less sensitive' than my left (and less sensitive to high freqs too). At low volume levels, 'center stage' always seems left-shifted to me. To prove to myself that it really isn't, I have to step toward the speakers. At higher levels, things sound better centered.

Not to mention that stereo volume controls are often not exact either...

danger boy

well, my 2B's have always sounded off to me as well.. the right tower is slightly louder then the left one. I have tried changing everything out.. different amps, pre amps, cables, speaker wires, sources, different placement and still it's unbalanced. so I have to assume the left channel isn't putting out the same level as the right one. i have not had them rebuilt..

audiocr381ve

danger boy wrote: »

well, my 2B's have always sounded off to me as well.. the right tower is slightly louder then the left one. I have tried changing everything out.. different amps, pre amps, cables, speaker wires, sources, different placement and still it's unbalanced. so I have to assume the left channel isn't putting out the same level as the right one. i have not had them rebuilt..

That's not right man. Have you taken out the polyswitches yet? That may be your problem.

My problem is things sound out of focus. The sound is balanced, it's just the the center image hasn't "snapped" into place like I know it can with SDA's. It could be the room and placement, but it definitely doesn't sound like one speaker is louder than the other.

And it's just weird how bright they've been lately. A few new pieces of gear will do that.

Toolfan66

WOW!! Boy did I miss a lot of SDA drama the last couple of days. Time to go back and hang out on the deck and listen to the birds sing...







Late...

Schurkey

I would be looking for:

1. One speaker--or individual driver(s)--out-of-phase compared to the other speaker or other drivers. Lightweight bass, no center image.

2. Put an ohmmeter on the negative posts of your amp. My 1Bs sounded very terrible in the mid-range with a mere 20 ohms of resistance between the otherwise common-ground amp channels. A jumper wire connecting the negative terminals made an IMMENSE improvement.

evhudsons

What should you look for in the ohm measurement? I just picked up a multimeter but haven't checked my amps yet. Is connecting the negative terminals safe?

My amp is common ground but you have me curious now.

Audiocreative, are you using the same gauge and length of speaker wire, and are your connections proper and your speakers squared up? Those things made a difference on my setup with center imaging.

bmbguy

If an amp is really common ground, that reading between the minus terminals should be really, really close to zero ohms. Even 20 ohms between supposedly common and/or connected points sounds too high to me.

vcwatkins

When using 2b's in my office rig (6' apart, 12" off wall, 3' from sides, bit of overkill in my small study), range of optimal distance of listening position from center of speakers was very precise. Much more so than other sda's in the same area. I did not experience other soundfield problems/challenges. Love the 2b's though.

Schurkey

evhudsons wrote: »

Is connecting the negative terminals safe?

Sure--UNLESS THE AMPLIFIER IS A BRIDGED DESIGN. Even then, it's safe to test with an ohmmeter as long as the amp is turned off (I'd shut it off and give it a couple minutes for stray voltage to dissipate.

evhudsons wrote: »

My amp is common ground but you have me curious now.

If you're being told that it's common-ground, it is not a bridged design, and there's no problem testing the resistance between the two negative terminals.

Make sure that the meter has been zeroed so meter lead resistance isn't part of your measurement. Touch the two leads together, assure that the meter reads "0.0 ohms". Adjust the zero point as required by your meter.

If I were doing this, I'd leave the amplifier "off" when testing. If you have > 1 ohm, you're set. If you have more than 1 ohm, clean the connections and re-test. A few amps will disconnect the ground connection when shut off, you'll have to turn them on to get a meaningful reading. I don't think this will hurt the meter--or you--but if you suspect the amp is a bridged unit, get advice from someone with more knowledge than me--like perhaps the amp manufacturer. The negative terminals CANNOT be connected with a jumper wire if the amp is bridged.

bmbguy wrote: »

If an amp is really common ground, that reading between the minus terminals should be really, really close to zero ohms. Even 20 ohms between supposedly common and/or connected points sounds too high to me.

I will absolutely guarantee that 20 ohms is too much. The 1Bs sound like ****--and I mean really distorted--with 20 ohms resistance in the supposedly "common ground". Screwy midrange; which I can only describe as "phase-y". Another guy on this forum with the same brand and model amp (different SDA speakers) had problems with noise coming through the speakers and I think his amp shut down on him. He went to an AI-1 which works superbly for him--but my 1Bs won't accept an AI-1, so the ground strap between the negative terminals works for me.

evhudsons

Great info, thanks! I just happened to have to be home earlier, so I tested my amps and they are at zero, pretty much dead on. For the heck of it I measured my CRS+ speakers with pos and neg, speaker wires still hooked up and they both read 3ohms. Is this right? It didn't make a difference when I disconnected the interconnect. I'm not sure if I was measuring anything worth measuring or has any meaning, but I want to make sure everything is as it should be.

I take it if the amps read zero ohms, then there would be no point in jumping the negative terminals?

The amps are bridgeable, but I only have the NAD in bridged mode.

heiney9

You measured the resistance of the x-over in it's static state (basically nothing important). Not the impedance of the speaker. Impedance is usually illustrated as a plotted curve as it is not a linear measurement. It will change as the frequency changes with regard to the load, which is the loud speaker.

bmbguy

Schurkey wrote: »

I will absolutely guarantee that 20 ohms is too much.

Yeah, I probably should have said "way too high". If I was working on a circuit and found 20 ohms between two points that were supposed to be common, you can bet I'd be digging trying to find out where those 20 ohms were, because something wouldn't be right.