Need recommendation for musical subwoofer

ravaneli

I just filled the RMA form for BOSTON ACOUSTICS RPS1000 Reflection 10in 500 Watt Powered Subwoofer.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/BOSRPS1000GB/BOSTON-ACOUSTICS-RPS1000-Reflection-10in-500-Watt-Powered-Subwoofer/1.html

Looked great and had solid specs on paper. I found a couple of positive reviews too, although it was hard to find any reviews at all. Like I have mentioned already, I have been quite unhappy with my DSW 660. It does not hit clean no matter settings or location. It is in the living room now, used for HT only, and it works fine for that purpose. Has good power on explosions and it's hard to do critical listening for HT so I have no complains in that respect.

The BA sub had incredible look and feel, definitely looked more expensive than the polk and was heavier despite being significantly smaller. Also the sound was exactly what I thought a sub should sound like, the woofer was so much lighter and faster and cleaner! I swapped them back and forth several times listening to songs with light and discrete drumbeats in them. The BA sub makes a drum sound like a drum in the room, and I have happened to hear more drums live than I wanted. The Polk creates a HIT from the drum, it sounds like a 'thump', and totally different from the actual drum beat. Also, bass guitars and even low notes on regular guitars are absolutely distorted by the Polk but sound very clean and distinct on the BA. The BA sub is a musical sub indeed.

So why did I RMA and asking for advice now for something similar? The power handling of the BA sub was super low. It was great for normal listening levels, but if you try to go just a little louder it starts to clip and sounds like BRRRR. I plugged it through the powermeter. As long as it consumes under 80W it sounds beautifully! But once it reaches 100W it will clip and distort so heavily that listening is impossible any more. The thing is rated 500W continuous and 1000W peak! 100W should be cake for that thing! What I liked about the DSW 660 is that accurate or not, the sounds is absolutely unchanged all the way to max volume. It just never clips or distors, very consistent and reliable performance.

My budget is 500 or less, don't mind buying used in good condition. I know what is recommended for HT around here but now that I've heard the BA sub I really want something like that but with more consistent performance. Thanks in advance for any suggestions

Conradicles

This one may fit your needs for a bit more:
http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/549999389/rel-t1-black?s_c=site_search

brianle

I had Rel T1 before. Rel T1 is good for music but only so so for movies.

EndersShadow

Take a look at some of these:

HSU: STF-2, VTF-1 MK2.
Elemental Designs: A2-300, A3-250.
Outlaw Audio: LFM-1 Plus

tonyb

If your looking for a dual purpose sub, and fairly cheap, the HSU suggestion is rock solid. Haven't had an ear on the others thrown out there, but people seem to also like Epic subs, certain Def Tech's too.

heiney9

Be sure to use a distortion free low power amp to power it :razz:

Because underpowering it won't hurt it.

Sounds to me you are underpowering it.

H9

tonyb

Don't see how he can be underpowering Brock when they have their own built in amp. Maybe a crossover setting would seem to be more so the culprit. Too little info to draw conclusions, but if the man wants a different sub, we can easily spend his money for him, it's what we do best.:cheesygrin:

ravaneli

Yes, the sub has it's own amp, and the thing is heavy as hell.

The crossover of the 1021 Pioneer receiver was set to 80. Tried reducing the channel level of the sub to (-10db) which really didn't change much. I now had to turn the volume of the amp even more for the same effect. With several different combinations if channel level and amp volume the result was always heavy distortion around 100 W of power consumption.

I tried it for HT as well. Long explosions create the same rattle. Reduced the LFE to (-15 db) which helped but only because it reduced power consumption and effect. It seems too small for HT anyway..

I am looking for music only, not dual purpose. It will be in my bedroom which is 19x12 and I don't need too much power but really look for good bass detail.

I have been looking at the REL T1, and might stretch for it. Does anyone here own it? Can you comment on bass detail in music? I like the look of T1 too, but I think it's really overpriced because it's british. Those specs are not that impressive, one can only hope to find good detail..

tonyb

Rav, -10...-15 on the sub level is way low, if anything it should be hanging anywhere from -3 to +5 in most cases. Then you use the volume control on the sub to adjust further. Also, did you have the crossover on the back of the subs turned all the way up ? You mentioned using the crossover in the receiver, so using both would be a no no. Did you play with maybe lowering the crossover point to 60 or some other value ?
I won't sit here and pretend the dsw is the king of subs, but it sure shouldn't sound as bad as your making it out to be. Something else has to be off kilter in your settings.

ravaneli

The REL is too expensive for its specs.

Anyone from chicago wana order Epic Empire or Epic Legend so we can use the discount?

steveinaz

Well, "good" and "cheap" rarely come together as a package. I would re-read Tony's post so the new sub is properly set-up.

heiney9

PM Daboyz, he lives in Rockford (not too far from you) I believe he has a sub for sale that would fit your need. I can't remember for the life of me what the brand is, it escapes me for the moment. It could already be sold, he was looking to sell it locally a few months ago.

In fact here's the link. Might be out of your price range. It's a pretty awesome sub and very musical

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?130582-Martin-Logan-Depth-sub

H9

Conradicles

ravaneli wrote: »

The REL is too expensive for its specs.

Specs don't always equate to musicality. Just something to ponder.

ravaneli

Conradicles wrote: »

Specs don't always equate to musicality. Just something to ponder.

I am aware of that, but you cannot completely divorce the two either. What about a really musical $1000, 100W sub? That is something to ponder about too.

Not to say the REL is a weakling... but I am really tempted by those sealed Epic subs.

Noone in chicago willing to jump for one?

heiney9

Not interested in the Martin Logan Depth forsale locally. It's a sweet, sweet sub. Or are strictly looking to buy new?

H9

pietro944

ravaneli wrote: »

The REL is too expensive for its specs.

Anyone from chicago wana order Epic Empire or Epic Legend so we can use the discount?

I have the REL T-1.....10" 300w RMS.......$599.88 at Vann's w/free ship.....hard to find a more musical sub

ravaneli

tonyb wrote: »

Rav, -10...-15 on the sub level is way low, if anything it should be hanging anywhere from -3 to +5 in most cases. Then you use the volume control on the sub to adjust further. Also, did you have the crossover on the back of the subs turned all the way up ? You mentioned using the crossover in the receiver, so using both would be a no no. Did you play with maybe lowering the crossover point to 60 or some other value ?
I won't sit here and pretend the dsw is the king of subs, but it sure shouldn't sound as bad as your making it out to be. Something else has to be off kilter in your settings.

The BA sub is on it's way back. Took a good loss on that one for paying for shipping both ways. Not quite happy with BA right now. I played with the channel levels a lot. Higher numbers increase the distortion. I would rather use it on (-3) but distorts too early that way. The XO was 80. When you use the LFE input the amp it automatically bypasses the internal crossover, so i couldn't use both even if I wanted.
The DSW is not bad.. but it clearly lacks definition. Light drums, guitar strings.. are not reproduced well and it was obvious when I compared it to the BA sub, at the same location with same settings. I think the driver of the DSW is just too heavy and is just slower and not as responsive. I am not loving the port either, it is just a HT sub in my opinion..

Used is fine, even better if I can test first. That one is a bit expensive for me though..

heiney9

Yeah, I reread the 1st post you're looking to stay around $500. Just looking to hook-up a couple local polkies. Best way to do business with the larger, heavier stuff.

H9

Conradicles

I run this VMPS 215 in my 2-channel rig and it sounds amazing:




"New Original Subwoofer / 215 Subwoofer(two models with same outer appearance)
A good subwoofer can greatly enhance the performance of virtually any music system: first by extending frequency response into the first octave (16 Hz ? 32 Hz); second by generating much less harmonic distortion in the subbass and bass regions (200 Hz and below) than is typical of most fullrange speakers, which often produce tens of percent THD in that range; and third by reducing intermodulation and doppler distortion in the main speakers by relegating long wavelength fundamentals to a separate driver which is well suited to reproducing this most difficult area of the musical spectrum. The woofer fulfilling these functions should be reasonably compact, efficient enough and of low mass and inertia to match all main systems, and not prohibitively expensive. In all these areas the VMPS Subwoofers excel.

There can be no clean first octave response from any speaker having a pronounced system resonance in the audible range, and the VMPS Subwoofers, like their full-range multiway siblings, are free of such anomalies throughout their operating region. This is achieved by means of a push-pull arrangement of active drivers and passive radiators. The mass- loaded passive, pushed by the low-resonant active woofer, provides most of the first musical octave thanks to its high compliance and a resonance frequency below the audio range (8 to 12 Hz). Another benefit of this arrangement is high efficiency, since front and back waves are utilized to produce sound, so typical subwoofer sensitivity reaches 89 to 92dB for one Watt input. Last but hardly least, the active/passive setup lowers bass cutoff to into the teens and early twenties, particularly when the optional high power, 80oz. stacked magnet woven carbon fiber Megawoofer is installed. VMPS Subwoofers are avoiding high moving mass (up to several pounds) of many competitors and thus offer flat frequency response to 300hz and higher. Electrostatic and other dipole radiators can therefore be crossed over in the more advantageous 175 Hz to 250 Hz range to minimize frequency response errors caused by the dipole effect (which in many planar systems starts as high as 700 Hz). VMPS Subwoofers reach undistorted output levels (for 5% THD) of 112 dB to 115 dB/1m and higher at frequencies much lower than other designs. Because of very low moving mass both of the active and the passive speakers, VMPS subwoofers are extremely quick and responsive, fast enough not to lag behind even the lowest-mass electrostatic or ribbon transducers now available.


Specifications
Drivers ? Original / 30 cm (12″) WCF Megawoofer bass, 215 / 38 cm (15″), both have 38 cm (15″) Passive Radiator
Rec. xover range ? 60 Hz ? 300 Hz
Internal wiring ? 12 gauge Monster Cable
Impedance & Sensitivity ? 8 Ohm, 90 dB/1W/1m
Power handling ? 300 W rms / 4 Ohms, 20 W min.
Frequency response ? 19 Hz ? 600 Hz +0/-3 dB
Dimensions & Weight ? 50H x 67W x 43Dcm, 43 kg (20″H x 26″W x 17″D, 95 lbs)
Output levels and distortion ? max. 2.5%THD fullrange / 1 W, max. 112+ dB SPL/1m
Finishes ? standard lite oak, dark oak"

jbooker82

ravaneli wrote: »

The XO was 80. When you use the LFE input the amp it automatically bypasses the internal crossover, so i couldn't use both even if I wanted.

You can use a Y cable and turn the switch to LFE no. Then you can use the Low Pass Filter knob on the sub.

What was the XO setting for the mains in your avr?

tonyb

Maybe I missed it, but what speaks are you using with these subs ? Guitar strings is not a normal sound a sub reproduces. Maybe look for a sealed sub, no ports, they may be more the quick snappy sound your looking for. Though for under a nickel, might be harder to do, but used is a good possability.

If the sub is used by plugging in the LFE on the receiver, your only going to get the lower bass from that so looking for midbass and guitar strings isn't going to happen. The other option is to connect the speakers by way of the sub and use the subs crossover, that way you'll have more control over how much bass you want going to the sub. You would then set the receiver to "no sub" so that all of the full freq range hits that sub and it's crossover. It's easy to get settings screwed up with subs, takes some fiddling around to get them just so. In my experience anyway, trying to get a sub in a HT/music system takes alot more work to get it to sound good. Getting a sub to sound poorly, now thats easy.:cheesygrin: