Power cord upgrade

Lietuvis91

DarkHorror wrote: »

Sometimes you will hear an obvious difference, but then if you go back to what you had before and listen again that obvious difference will still be there in the old gear thus there was really no difference at all.

I can't agree that you can hear a difference where there isn't one. That just doesn't make sense. But, I will say that I have cought myself interpretting "different" as "better". That is one trick your might does play on you.

DarkHorror

What did I say that was wrong, and to say you won't hear differences if there aren't any is just plain wrong. Your brain is the one that interprets the sound that you hear. Your brain is easy to fool, just look at optical illusions.

A good way to try this is to get someone that can switch sources on something that has a small difference. Listen to a song on one setting, then listen to another song, then have your friend switch or not switch then listen to the first song again.

I will say it again the only way you can tell if you brain isn't being fooled is with a blind test.

And I do agree that different doesn't mean better, this is a problem a lot of people have. That is another place where blind testing works well since you find the one you actually think sounds better not the one you think should sound better.

heiney9

Thank you for enlightening us. What would we do without your common sense and the fact that it's so cut and dried, black and white, etc. I am selling all my gear, tubes, cables, etc and am buying a HTiB since my brain is so easily fooled I should be able to fool it into hearing great sound from a piece of crap HTiB.

Again, I Thank You!!

H9

DarkHorror

heiney9 wrote: »

Thank you for enlightening us. What would we do without your common sense and the fact that it's so cut and dried, black and white, etc. I am selling all my gear, tubes, cables, etc and am buying a HTiB since my brain is so easily fooled I should be able to fool it into hearing great sound from a piece of crap HTiB.

Again, I Thank You!!

H9

Where did I say everything sounds the same and your brain can be fooled into thinking something crappy is good? There are lots of things that improve sound quality and it's easily noticeable. There is a huge difference in sound quality as you go up in quality of many components. There are also many things that have very little to no impact on sound quality. If you spend the money and think there is going to be an improvement many times you will hear one even if one isn't there. This is why testing is needed to make sure you are actually getting the improvement you think you are.

Heck sometimes you think you should hear an improvement then when doing testing it shows you it's worse, or you don't think there will be an improvement and blind testing shows you that there is.

heiney9

Blind testing is not necessary to determine if there is a difference. It's really that simple and this subject has been beaten to death on this BB. Perhaps you weren't aware of this threads. Read through them and come back with rebuttals and evidence.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?131718-Stupid-things-you-hear-from-the-DBT-Null-test-crowd....

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?131666-Dumb-things-you-ve-heard-from-quot-audiophiles-quot-...

H9

BlueFox

DarkHorror wrote: »

The measurements are fine and as expected, it's the difference in sound that unless tested correctly you will be unable to tell if it's real or not.

So, what you are saying is that you personally have never tried a power cord upgrade on a decent to great piece of equipment. In fact, you have never tried any type of cable upgrade on a decent to great piece of equipment. Therefore, your lack of experience and knowledge in this area has made you an expert in psycho-acoustics. This acquired lack of knowledge is superior to all practical experience derived by millions of people around the world who have made cable upgrades on decent to great gear.

That is quite an amazing feat. However, I guess I will stick with real world experience, and you can remain in your fantasy world.

DarqueKnight

DarkHorror wrote: »

What did I say that was wrong, and to say you won't hear differences if there aren't any is just plain wrong. Your brain is the one that interprets the sound that you hear. Your brain is easy to fool, just look at optical illusions.

A good way to try this is to get someone that can switch sources on something that has a small difference. Listen to a song on one setting, then listen to another song, then have your friend switch or not switch then listen to the first song again.

I will say it again the only way you can tell if you brain isn't being fooled is with a blind test.

And I do agree that different doesn't mean better, this is a problem a lot of people have. That is another place where blind testing works well since you find the one you actually think sounds better not the one you think should sound better.

Rather than relying on memory, why wouldn't it be better to document everything heard and then compare notes from each listening session? With so much going on in a music presentation, it is easy to miss something.

maximillian

The problem is that your brain doesn't know what good music sounds like. It has been trained by years of inferior audio equipment and inferior quality music, i.e. mp3's. You need to teach it what is good sounding music. So you have two choices... 1) spend a lot of money on good gear, or 2) spend a lot of time with live music.

There are a lot of pieces that need to come together to hear the differences. If you Change power cords on some good quality gear but then feed it mp3's, then you probably won't hear a difference. Even if you have all the quality components and music your brain needs to get used to what music should sound like. Then, change a component to something more inferior and you will know something is wrong.

It's taken a lot of time (and money) but I am now appreciating quality recordings since my gear and brain are finally clicking. And I still have relatively lower end gear in the true audiophile sense of the word. But when I listen to mp3's (256 kbps even) on my system I can definitely tell.

DarqueKnight

DarkHorror wrote: »

The problem is that your brain and ears are very easy to fool. You end up hearing what you want to hear or what you expect to hear. You will hear differences even if they aren't there, you may hear a difference on a track using the exact same setup listening to the same track twice in a row.

But, isn't it possible to train your mind so that it is not easily tricked? I mean, if people's minds are strong enough to kick heroin and cocaine, can't they also kick other mind tricks...like visual bias and product preferences?

High-end television evaluators do not use blind trials:

How HDTV Trials Are Conducted

Scholarly research from the field of economics indicate that the visual bias which blind test are said to eliminate can be more appropriately addressed through consumer education and training:

"Debiasing" Consumers Through Education

heiney9

I swapped tubes in my pre-amp last night. I didn't need a blind test to remind me why those were stuck in a drawer for awhile and not listened to. Same music, same listening position, etc, but definitely a different, edgier more aggressive sound. Subtle for the person not familiar with the music and/or my rig but very apparent to me. No blinding necessary. Left them in for the entire cd to make sure they were in the proper operating zone and then back into their boxes they went.

They are a very rare and expensive variant but to me not as good as the cheaper more common tube I was using prior to it, which has now been swapped for something better sounding to me. All without quick changes or done blind. Just an evening spent doing critical listening and taking notes about what I heard.

H9

DarkHorror

So none of you have tried blind testing???

Otherwise you are just testing your ears, memory, brain, perceptions,... All coming together to give you a picture that you want to see. I have tried power cords, different connections, different amps, pre amps, receivers, speakers,... Some things are obvious.

Instead of trying to justify what you think I would suggest giving it a try with something like a power cord. Have you and someone else both do a blind testing. Listen to a small part then the person switches or doesn't switch the cable and you listen again do this a good number of times marking down which cord you think is being used.

I do enjoy you guys thinking I don't know what good equipment sounds like, that seems like a generic excuse given when ever anyone says you need to do a blind test.

These do NEED to be tested at same SPL, I also didn't say nothing makes a difference your pre-amp may very well sound different, I know a bunch of receiver and pre-amps do sound different.

The problem with writing down then coming back later is that your memory isn't good enough, even if you write down what you hear you put bias towards what you had written down.

I used to think all these cables, electronics, amps had obvious different sounds when listening in my system. I actually tested different stuff on accident one time that I found some of the things didn't make the difference, or made a larger difference than I thought.

Sorry to hijack the thread, I think I have made my point. Until you try blind testing I have nothing more to say.

cstmar01

seriously these threads are getting old. It's not answering the OP's question and its always the same thing. I don't think it makes a difference, so don't spend your money and if you do I think your dumb.

It's his choice, his money, so let me do it. Doesn't harm you. You can still go on your normal daily life and it won't hurt you. It's not like the PC that Zeus was using is going to fall out of the sky and kill us all if you don't annoy us all to death about blind testing.

playback

The problem with dBT is its not the way we listen to music, sure atmosphere mood lighting all play a part in what we sometimes consider a great listening session and sometimes we, yes even close our eyes if that's what the mood calls for. My point is all of our senses are intertwined with each other and takes them all to measure what we experience. Hold your nose while you eat and tell us if your food has less taste, why? because aroma counts for over 2000+ things we can taste and not just sweet, sour, salty,etc.

Drenis

playback wrote: »

The problem with dBT is its not the way we listen to music, sure atmosphere mood lighting all play a part in what we sometimes consider a great listening session and sometimes we, yes even close our eyes if that's what the mood calls for. My point is all of our senses are intertwined with each other and takes them all to measure what we experience. Hold your nose while you eat and tell us if your food has less taste, why? because aroma counts for over 2000+ things we can taste and not just sweet, sour, salty,etc.

Great post. A lot of people don't "see" the music when they don't close their eyes. Myself, I am able to better "see" the music and be more critical of differences when my eyes are closed. When opened, I'm trying to hard to find where the music is going. I love following where the sound goes in the room. Like when you hear a cymbal crash and the sound moves in a certain direction but is uniformed.

transmaster

maximillian wrote: »

The problem is that your brain doesn't know what good music sounds like. It has been trained by years of inferior audio equipment and inferior quality music, i.e. mp3's. You need to teach it what is good sounding music. So you have two choices... 1) spend a lot of money on good gear, or 2) spend a lot of time with live music.

OK I have been a musician for nearly 50 years, I have either personally played the instrument or have listened to it year after year. Yet audiophiles dismiss this saying that because I have been a musician most of my life I can not judge anything high end because my brain fills in the missing pieces. OK which is it.

DarkHorror

Blind testing doesn't mean you have to close your eyes lol, it just means you can't know what you are listening to. Though closing your eyes should allow you to do a better job listening since you aren't being distracted by visual stimulation, but that isn't really the point.

Face

DarkHorror wrote: »

The problem is that your brain and ears are very easy to fool. You end up hearing what you want to hear or what you expect to hear.

Which is why it's possible to believe you didn't hear a difference when there was one, making this form of testing null.

DarqueKnight

Face wrote: »

Which is why it's possible to believe you didn't hear a difference when there was one, making this form of testing null.

What?! You mean placebo effect works both ways? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo! I don't believe it!

---

Stop bullying!!!

DarqueKnight

DarkHorror wrote: »

Blind testing doesn't mean you have to close your eyes lol, it just means you can't know what you are listening to. Though closing your eyes should allow you to do a better job listening since you aren't being distracted by visual stimulation, but that isn't really the point.

1. Trained and experienced television evaluators do their tests non-blind.

2. There is a principle in economic theory that a trained/educated consumer can be "debiased" and evaluate a product or service strictly on performance.

Obviously, people can be trained to set aside biases incurred through product knowledge.

What is so different about audio (stereo) that people cannot be trained to set aside biases due to brand name, price, and aesthetics?

DarqueKnight

transmaster wrote: »

OK I have been a musician for nearly 50 years, I have either personally played the instrument or have listened to it year after year. Yet audiophiles dismiss this saying that because I have been a musician most of my life I can not judge anything high end because my brain fills in the missing pieces. OK which is it.

Just because a person owns a jet, it doesn't make them a pilot. Just because a person owns an expensive stereo, it doesn't make them an audiophile. A lot of nonsense gets attributed to audiophiles, when, in actuality, it was just a nut with an expensive stereo.

No real, rational audiophile would say that a person's experience with live music would make them less able to judge recorded music...unless that person had incurred hearing damage from concert experiences.

I have been a musician for over 20 years and my brain certainly does not "fill in the missing pieces" between the sound of a real saxophone and a high quality recording of a saxophone.

F1nut

DarkHorror wrote: »

The problem is that your brain and ears are very easy to fool. You end up hearing what you want to hear or what you expect to hear. You will hear differences even if they aren't there, you may hear a difference on a track using the exact same setup listening to the same track twice in a row. Sometimes you will hear an obvious difference, but then if you go back to what you had before and listen again that obvious difference will still be there in the old gear thus there was really no difference at all.

It seems to me that you are trying to apply your limitations to those of us without them.

The only way you can tell if the difference is real or imagined is if you are able to compare them quickly, over the same part of music, changing them so you don't know which you are listening to, and at the same spl.

Ah, that explains why you're having problems.

The measurements are fine and as expected, it's the difference in sound that unless tested correctly you will be unable to tell if it's real or not. You may say it was obvious, but considering how your brain and ears work you will never know until tested in the right conditions.

Say what!?!

transmaster

Gosh what a stupid thing to have a flame war over. If you want to spend big bucks for power cord fine, if you don't, we'll then don't