Sonos or Squeezebox Touch?

SCompRacer

dkg999 wrote: »

I would save your money for the next fad. I don't think this digital music thing is going to catch on.

:cheesygrin: +1 :cheesygrin:

steveinaz

Ah, rub a little whiskey on their gums and get to it man.

breal74

I am definately wanting to get a NAS to store all of my music files on, but after I get the touch or the Sonos. Will it be a pita to switch where the files are being pulled from, or should I get the files on the NAS first? Also, I was wondering if your computer needs to be on to retrieve files with the Sonos system as it does with the Touch? Thanks for all the input!

maximillian

My old NAS can do it with a modified firmware. But as H9 mentioned, devices with native support are not inexpensive.

http://buffalo.nas-central.org/wiki/SlimServer_%28MIPSel%29

So once this is done, and if a tablet is used, then the larger screen of the SB Touch may not be needed. So is the SB classic just as good sonically as the Touch? Is there an Android app that can control the SB classic? I have an iPod Touch, but it is with me all day and people can't use this "remote" when I'm not home. So I would want a dedicated tablet for use as a remote.

Currently I use XBMC to simply read the SMB share of the NAS. It's quite easy. Great UI and it plays Xvid movies too. My WD Streaming live device has similar functionality with a slightly uglier UI. It would be nice to have a better device with good usability as XBMC but with better sound.

mdaudioguy

maximillian wrote: »

Again, I'm sure that a $100-$150 7" tablet might solve this problem. But then you have more software layers to deal with instead of just turning one device on. A laptop is not a solution IMO. I don't want to have to wait for my remote to boot.

This is where it's at. I have a Kindle Fire, rooted, running a version of CM7 (an Android ROM). Best remote there is, IMO. Amazon was recently selling refurbs for $140. Plus, it's a very functional tablet. Phones work great, too, but the larger tablet screen makes for an awesome remote. Oh yeah, my Yamaha AVR is networked and has an app, too. All I have to do is sit down with my tablet, and I can control everything.

maximillian wrote: »

So once this is done, and if a tablet is used, then the larger screen of the SB Touch may not be needed. So is the SB classic just as good sonically as the Touch? Is there an Android app that can control the SB classic? I have an iPod Touch, but it is with me all day and people can't use this "remote" when I'm not home. So I would want a dedicated tablet for use as a remote.

My zones are:

1. Sunroom = SB Touch
2. Garage = SB Classic
3. Deck = SB Duet Receiver
4. Back yard = SB Duet Receiver
5. Bedroom = Old iPhone 3G running Squeezecast (an el-cheapo zone - 1/8 from the headphone jack to RCAs on a JVC clock radio setup - works like all the others)

All are controllable via any one of the apps (I like Android's Squeeze Commander best). Unfortunately, Logitech only sells the Touch now, so a 5 zone system like this would be over a grand for 5 Touches. Duet receivers and SB Classics on the used market are a viable option - particularly for places where no one will ever see them (my outdoor units are hidden away in my basement). It's a shame Logitech no longer sells something like the Duet receiver for, say, $150.

mdaudioguy

As far as a music server, a NAS solution is great, but I favor a VortexBox-based solution. I built a small, headless (no monitor) server based on an Intel Atom processor - low power, virtually silent (no fan), and whatever size drive(s) you want. Download and install the VB software (basically a Linux-based, customized OS) and roll with it. VB has the Logitech Media Server software included, and uses Samba file-sharing, so all I had to do was copy my music files across my network to my server.

maximillian

mdaudioguy, thanks for the great info. Your setup is how I envision it, albeit I only thought about having one SB since that is all I need currently. I store all my music and movies on my NAS and since my iPod to the NAS as well. Then I use my PC to backup (2GB HD) the NAS. It's a decent and inexpensive setup. Any laptop can stream files from it. I have a couple Xbox/XBMC/WD TV Live devices around the house for watching movies. No fumbling for DVD's for kid's movies, and they are fine with the quality.

I am just looking for more music fidelity since I believe the Xbox is holding my system back. I found an older SB unit here:

http://www.buy.com/prod/logitech-squeezebox-logitech-squeezebox-network-media-player-mp3-aac/206671999.html

Does this have the same sonic quality as the SB Touch? According to Logitech's website, the app should control it too. I don't believe it's WIFI, but that's not a problem for me.

BTW, what hardware are you using for your slim PC?

heiney9

All SQB's are WIFI. The older units don't have quite as nice a dac section, but they aren't too bad. Other than the touch screen of the Touch, they all work the same, hook up the same and interphase the same.

H9

simm

Will the touch work okay with a N router?

pearsall001

I don't quite get all the talk about NAS products & their seemingly complex issues. I bought a Buffalo NAS, the Sonos read it in an instant & played music. Simple addition here, no quirks or issues what so ever. This thing is just too easy especially for me. The Sonos controller sets a new bar on the convenience factor scale. Nice screen with all the info you'll ever need at your fingertips. I'm currently running only 3 zones but I have the capability of expanding that to well over 300 zones if the need ever arose. My house isn't quite that big.

mantis

They are both nice and I have done both. Sonos I've done since 2006 and really think it's a gem in our Industry. Nothing on the market even comes close.

Sonically I have listened to Sonos with a Cambridge Dac Magic and it's amazing. I like it Digital out to a nice receiver or pre with good built in DAC's , I like it using it's own DAC's with good quality IC's. Either way it's a win win with Sonos.

maximillian

Thanks pearsall and Mantis. Maybe I'll try the Sonos Connect since it's easy to try out, has SMB support, and I can buy it from my local BB. If I don't like it I can always just return it.

So what do you think.... this connected to a Pioneer Elite VSX-21TXH via Toslink should give me a boost in audio fidelity? I'm playing FLAC and ALAC music files to LSi9's. My main complaint is that I don't feel like I have enough depth and believe my cheapo Xbox/XBMC source is killing me.

pearsall001

mantis wrote: »

They are both nice and I have done both. Sonos I've done since 2006 and really think it's a gem in our Industry. Nothing on the market even comes close.

Sonically I have listened to Sonos with a Cambridge Dac Magic and it's amazing. I like it Digital out to a nice receiver or pre with good built in DAC's , I like it using it's own DAC's with good quality IC's. Either way it's a win win with Sonos.

Couldn't have said it any better Dan. The Sonos, CA DacMagic is a magical combination. Now add into the mix a nice tube buffer & things sweeten up a bit more. Truly remarkable sounding!!!

mdaudioguy

maximillian wrote: »

BTW, what hardware are you using for your slim PC?

Intel D510MO Atom processor with integrated motherboard, generic micro ATX case, 2GB RAM, 750GB drive... pretty simple, really. VortexBox is the magic that ties it all together, though. It creates a music server that just works. And... it works for Sonos as well as SB!

mantis

maximillian wrote: »

Thanks pearsall and Mantis. Maybe I'll try the Sonos Connect since it's easy to try out, has SMB support, and I can buy it from my local BB. If I don't like it I can always just return it.

So what do you think.... this connected to a Pioneer Elite VSX-21TXH via Toslink should give me a boost in audio fidelity? I'm playing FLAC and ALAC music files to LSi9's. My main complaint is that I don't feel like I have enough depth and believe my cheapo Xbox/XBMC source is killing me.

Are you running the Lsi9's with the internal amps of the 21? If so do yourself a favor and get a external power amp. Plenty of suggestions around here of what people use to make them sing. the 21 is a work horse but will run out of gas running the Lsi9's at louder volumes. You have good internal DAC's on that receiver so you don't need a external DAC but the DAc Magic will make a noticeable improvement.

tonyb

maximillian wrote: »

Thanks pearsall and Mantis. Maybe I'll try the Sonos Connect since it's easy to try out, has SMB support, and I can buy it from my local BB. If I don't like it I can always just return it.

So what do you think.... this connected to a Pioneer Elite VSX-21TXH via Toslink should give me a boost in audio fidelity? I'm playing FLAC and ALAC music files to LSi9's. My main complaint is that I don't feel like I have enough depth and believe my cheapo Xbox/XBMC source is killing me.

Dan has some good suggestions, but let me add to his seeing that I have the exact receiver you do and the Sonos.

A few things, first off....I preferred the standard Sonos unit by it's analog outputs into the receiver. I also have a modded Sonos, and that one I prefer the digital outputs into the receiver. Also, there's a setting to cancel out the volume control and use the volume on the receiver instead. This helps alot since the volume controls on Sonos or SB add noise and on a main rig it's more noticeable than say out on the patio speakers.

Another thing, you mentioned lack of depth. The way it looks to me, thats more so a problem with the receiver itself and the fact that your running LSI's off of it....if thats indeed the case. Good quality cables can also make a big difference. In that scenario, I wouldn't expect much from either a SB/Sonos unit except some added flexability. The Pioneer 21 is a nice receiver, but it does have limits.

I noticed in a previous thread, you had some outdoor speakers also. What I did, was use a cheapo Sony receiver with speaker A and B switching and use A for the kitchen area, B for outside speakers, that way I cover 2 areas with one standard Sonos box connected by the analog outputs. My modded unit resides in the main rig. I use one wireless controller to cover everything. I also had an Audio-gd dac that I liked with the Sonos too so suggestions on adding a seperate dac down the line are spot on.

I think all of this however is pointless, unless you address your power issue first. I'm going on assumptions here because I don't know everything in your rig too. The Sonos or Squeezeboz will change the way you listen to music, the wife will love it, your friends will love it, and you can control everything from one point. In the end, you have a few issues going on, and I know not all can be taken care of at once depending on budget of coarse, but don't expect a Sonos/SB to correct a depth issue is all I'm saying. Go over to best buy and play around with the one they have set up on display to see if it's right for you. Dan, Phil, or myself will be happy to help ya along if you need it. Good luck.

coolsax

To answer the answer the question with regards to the Sonos and and Nas, I don't have a sonos, but I did my research on both and the Sonos does not need to have a separate computer running like the Squeezebox does if you're not running the squeezebox software on the NAS itself. In fact, if i'm not mistaken you can plug an NAS directly into the sonos if you want to.

maximillian

Sorry guys, I forgot to mention that I drive the LSi's with an Adcom GFA-6000. So no, I'm not using the Pioneer's amp for any of my speakers. When listening to music I set the Pioneer to "Stereo" and only listen to the fronts. I also have a Belkin PF60 for power and connect the LSi9's using MIT EXP2 Speaker Cables. The AVR to amp cables are not great since they are from Monoprice, but I don't think they should be terrible. I do have some Signal Cable interconnects that I will be using once I get a better stand and can get the AVR closer to the amp.

I have played Chesky Records' Ultimate Demonstration Disc on an older Pioneer DVD player (DV-C503 connected via Toslink) and didn't see a noticeable improvement in depth either. The track emphasizing depth was OK, but not as encompassing as others have made it out to be; definitely a shallow depth. Left-to-Right soundstage and imaging are fine, but depth and height are lacking. But I don't think the DVD player is all that special either. I am hoping the SONOS will be better overall, but now I am wondering if something else isn't going on. Lastly the speakers are 11' apart with 1" toe-in and I listen about 12' away. They are sitting on non-filled Sanus SF-30's and are about 2' from the back wall.

The only other thing I can think of is that my TV cabinet also houses my components and it is rather large. It sticks out 3 feet from the back wall and goes from floor to about 10 inches away from the ceiling. This is in a basement with carpeting and drop ceiling. Perhaps the cabinet is reflecting sound that is traveling sideways and inward and bouncing it out towards the listening position.

Regardless, I think I'm going to pick up the Sonos Connect today and give it a try. It should be an overall improvement to the Xbox/XBMC combo, agreed? I may remove the DVD player too which will allow me to place the amp closer to the AVR and use the five 3' Signal Cable Analog Two's that I have in storage.

breal74

maximillian wrote: »

Regardless, I think I'm going to pick up the Sonos Connect today and give it a try.

Let us know how it goes. I am very interested to hear how the set up goes and how it sounds.

maximillian

Sorry for the delay. I only picked it up today, then spent most of the night fixing my Internet setup - router died. So I haven't had a chance for some serious listening or setting it up for a proper test. However, here's my initial impressions...

1) Setup was easy, but there are some minor annoyances. For instance, my router's internal network was working fine but Sonos' setup insisted on having an Internet connection to install its software. Not a big deal for me usually, but for instance I couldn't install this at my parent's house (no Internet) nor could it be installed during last year's 2 major outages (days) in central MA (don't get me started on Valve's Steam).

Then I have all my music in a "music" folder on my NAS. I can't seem to find out how to point the Sonos just at this folder so it sees all the folders and files. This took several minutes extra during setup.

2) Wifi access is for Sonos' net, not using your router's Wifi. So you either need a Sonos bridge or hard wire the device. Not a big deal but I wish they would have been a little more explicit about this.

3) Setup was quite quick though. After my Internet issues were resolved I had the thing working in a matter of minutes.

4) I have this connected to my AVR through one of the analog inputs using Signal Audio Analog Two's. I only did a quick comparison switching to between the Xbox/XBMC which is connected via Toslink (yes, not the same but it's a quick test). I can't really do a blind test since I'm alone, but it did seem that Sarah McLachlan's voice in Angel had more reverb with the Sonos. I only played a couple songs but there did seem to be more detail with the Sonos. Not a huge amount but definitely noticeable. Either it's better or I'm imaging things due to being exhausted from a long day.

5) Controlling with an iPod Touch 4G. Very responsive. Scrolling through the list of songs is fluid and quick. The response was one of my unknowns and a concern, but no longer after trying it out. I do want a bigger screen, but it seems quite manageable using this small screen

I also just bought a used Dacmagic from the FM, so that should be interesting too. Unfortunately I don't have a good pre at this time.

I'll spend more time tomorrow and hook them up similarly.

tonyb

Max,

Sonos is pretty thorough on setup and what you need. Did you visit the site, watch any tutorial video's, look at their own forum ?

A computer, a router, a Sonos bridge and ZP90....plus either their controller or a free app for your phone/pad. Congrats on the Dac, I'm sure you'll like it with the Sonos. You going to use toslink or digital coax to go into the dac ? Try either way but I preferred the digital coax myself. If that light on the front of the unit annoys you, you can turn it off, it is pretty frickin' bright.

maximillian

I didn't have to visit any site to set it up. It was pretty straight forward, again once my Internet connection was working. There are settings I still need to play with I'm sure - such as the front LED.

The Sonos software needs to index the music directory on the NAS. This is again a *minor* annoyance. I added Chesky's Ultimate Demo disk as Flac files to my NAS and had to tell the Sonos software on my PC to update the library, otherwise it wouldn't see it. XBMC reads the SMB share every time so no need to do this. I also found this out about mounting shares:

http://forums.sonos.com/showthread.php?t=28522

So I either have to live with the root of my NAS accessed via the Sonos software or create another share on my NAS and move my music to it. I don't want to do it since iTunes on two computers is linked to my music folder's current location. There may be a way to do this with shortcuts.

I rearranged my AVR (again Pioneer Elite VSX-21TXH) and placed it closer to my amp (Adcom GFA6000). This allowed me to use my Signal Cable Audio Two interconnects between the amp and avr. I have the Sonos now connected to the AVR via Toslink. Forgive my inexperienced ears but I think I now hear depth. Definitely for the track "Sara K. - If I Could Sing Your Blues", Sara is right up front and the trumpet and drums seem further away. It's close but better than it used to be.

Listening to other tracks the Sonos does sound quite nice. The problem is that the Xbox/XBMC combo sounds equally as good. So either my system or setup is still faulty, I don't know what to listen for, or the Xbox/XBMC is also quite nice. I am leaning towards a little bit of the last point, but with the majority of the first. Maybe if I completely remove the AVR and use the Dacmagic with a good pre then I will be able to distinguish between the two. Let me emphasize that I think my system sounds fantastic though. I am just wondering how much better I can achieve if I try to take it to the next level. I was hoping the Sonos would have given me a bigger difference in audio fidelity considering the avr and amp are pretty decent.

I am undecided what to do at this point. I may return the Sonos for now since I think XBMC is simply easier to use than the Sonos. XBMC can easily be controlled with the Xbox remote and with a smartphone too. So unless I can squeeze out better tunes from the Sonos I don't see a benefit at the moment.

heiney9

The Squeezebox as a standalone (no external dac) might have given you the bigger difference you were looking for. I, however, don't know how the dac's of each compare to each other. Once you add the DacMagic things should change quite a bit soundwise. Not sure you will get much difference when using the DacMagic with both your set-ups.

The SQB and Sonos are more for convenience and expandibility. Since I'm not familiar at all with the Xbox/XBMC and it's options I can't comment.

H9

steveinaz

With our SQB Touch, Bev and I like to pick a year, ie 1979...then play hits off of each album of that year---it's actually really cool.

tonyb

maximillian wrote: »

I was hoping the Sonos would have given me a bigger difference in audio fidelity considering the avr and amp are pretty decent.

I am undecided what to do at this point. I may return the Sonos for now since I think XBMC is simply easier to use than the Sonos. XBMC can easily be controlled with the Xbox remote and with a smartphone too. So unless I can squeeze out better tunes from the Sonos I don't see a benefit at the moment.

Well, your using a digital file and the avr, where exactly did you think the SQ improvement would come from ? Sonos and SB are just a delivery system so to speak. I'm confused as to why you would want an xbox to deliver music. Also Sonos or SB can be controlled by any smart phone with their free apps.

I stated previously that I didn't think Sonos/Sb was going to give you the depth your looking for on their own. An external dac is key to these units in most cases. Wait for the Dacmagic, and then decide if it's right for you. You may just prefer the Xbox with the dacmagic, who knows. Also, you can set it up to update the library automaticaly at a certain time or just update the library right after downloading a cd. Takes a whole 30 seconds if that.

Their own controller is pretty sweet, and their free app does about 90% of what the controller does but I prefer the controller myself over the app. Everyones different though so choose your own poison.

maximillian

I remember discussion on here (can't find the thread) that using an Xbox with lossless files even over Toslink isn't optimal. The Xbox is basically a P3 computer. Even in this thread there is discussion that it is difficult to do PC audio right because Windows messes with the raw data. So I thought that the Xbox/XBMC wasn't doing a good job of reading and outputting the digital file. Who knows, there could be lots of jitter on the signal too. But on my system it seems fine.

I have the majority of my music ripped to lossless files and stored on a NAS. There's a couple iPod's that sync to the NAS and I have multiple Xbox's in different rooms able to access the content. The Xbox's also do Xvid movies. The UI is wonderful.

The beauty of the Sonos is its multi-room support, but that isn't a priority for me. Improved sound quality is however.

heiney9

All I can say in general is you need to spend a LOT more time with stuff to properly evaluate it. A few hours here and there and now you are ready to send it back isn't a fair evaluation. Use it for awhile, get used to it, do some different comparo's and then send it back if it doesn't float your boat. If you have 30 days to return it, use that 30 days to entirely evaluate it, not just an off the cuff listening session.

H9

heiney9

Try to keep everything else consistent. You've already used a different cable, if I read correctly. To many variables introduced at one time only creates problems when you are trying to directly compare it to something else.

Also rarely will something sound so different that it's apparent the first minute you listen to it. It takes time and listening to pick up on the subtle differences.

H9

tonyb

Seems like your happy with an Xbox solution, but the better sound will have more to do with a external dac than with the delivery system, Sonos, squeezebox, Xbox. All these devices have jitter btw. Did you try locking the volume control on the sonos and using the avr's volume control ? Makes a big difference. All these devices really do is deliver a lossless file, you won't see a huge difference in SQ between them. The differences are everything else involved, dac, cables, pre amp, receiver. With the dacmagic in the mix, you'd be hard pressed to hear any difference between all those devices mentioned, given all things equal.

breal74

Finally saved up the $ and bought the Sonos ZP90 today. Set up took all but 10 minutes and I was off and running. The sound is nice and clean using the analog outs and I could not be happier! This thing is amazing, and so is the Touch for that matter, for what they do. To be able to sit on the couch and use my iPhone as a controler to go through my whole music library is incredible! Not to mention all the music services and internet radio stations. Going to give it a week hooked up with the analog outs to get used to the sound and then switch to the digital out to a simaudio MOON 100d and see where that takes me. Thanks for all the input everyone! I really appreciate it.