Crappily wired house

Mr. Sharpe

Well as some folks read where my receiver is humming. I took the receptacles out Saturday to see if there was a ground wire I could attach to them, there isn't. these are old 2 wire cables with the clothe insulation and no ground that are magnetized. The boxes are magnetized and so the receptacles have become as well along with both wires. This has to be why my receiver is humming, that and no ground wire anywhere of course. Changing the receptacles didn't do anything.

I'm seriously thinking about getting one breaker for the two outlets. I know that sounds crazy but I can buy 100 feet of #12 wire with ground for $50 and a breaker that may cost roughly $10.

Oh yeah, these outlets are on with the four lights, another four outlets, three kitchen outlets, Stove, microwave and both bedrooms (lights, 2 fans and four more outlets). This house was built in the 20's and is probably way overdue for an inspection of some kind.

Your thoughts are welcome and appreciated.

decal

Time for a whole house rewire, not just for your audio stuff but for your safety. I know, it's expensive. I had to rewire my 50 year old home a few years back.

Mr. Sharpe

How expensive? thousands probably?

I know the guy came out and had to have the break box itself inspected and he charged us $500 to put two sleeve type things over some wires that looked messy. The thing he came out to do was replace the meter because it was starting to melt a lug it connected the power to the house with.

But for real, how much was it? I'm seriously either thinking of doing that, only problem is my landlord AKA Dad, will not do it unless someone other than me tells him it has to be done. So it would probably need to be inspected right?

decal

I did my whole house for about $2500.00 but that was material only. A couple of friends and myself did the labor (saved me a ton of money).

Mr. Sharpe

I can imagine you probably saved a good 3 grand or more. I honestly could go with just those outlets done. there are six total outlets in the living/dinning room and I think 2 are grounded but I could be wrong. I'm going to eventually get under the house and see if I can even make it far enough up to try and take the old wires out, if I can those two would be a piece of cake. I'll get around to checking the two I think are grounded as well because they've been added since the house was built so I'm hoping. I know the support beam with lights over it has one and it is grounded for sure. one under the windows has a window unit plug for it so who knows. should be fun in the jungle of mess lol

nooshinjohn

I have to go along with the recommendation to rewire the whole house. It is less to do with eliminating hum and everything to do with remaining above ground. A rewire may just save your life.

drumminman

Agree with the above. One very important point to remember: be sure and turn off all power at the incoming panel BEFORE you crawl under the house. If you're lying on the ground and you touch a live wire, or anything with current running through it, you present a very short path to ground!

heiney9

The first thing I would do, is hire a certified electrician to come in and inspect the house wiring and see what they recommend, not only for your short term solution to the humming problem but also for the house's overall safety if the wiring is in fact original.

H9

michael1947

+1 for what H9 said. IF YOU DO IT YOURSELF GET A PERMIT AND HAVE IT INSPECTED. DO NOT ATTEMPT WITHOUT YOUR ELECTRICAL/BUILDING INSPECTOR. DO NOT ALLOW ANYONE TO DO ANY WORK WITHOUT THE SAME, A PERMIT AND A TOWNSHIP/COUNTY INSPECTION.

pdxfj

I feel your pain.

Just a few months ago I upgraded the service in my house from the original (1946) 60A with a very nasty fuse panel, to a modern 200A breaker panel (and service). I am in the process of re-wiring the house and the first place I ran new, dedicated power to was the living room where all my A/V stuff is. Made a huge difference.

I've stripped some of the cloth covered wire I've pulled out and it's been like an electric heating element.

Sounds funny, but save all your old copper wire. Scrap copper prices are nuts. One place near me is paying almost $4 a pound. I have about 20lbs in copper wire just from what was used between the old meter base and fuse panel.

Mr. Sharpe

I'm pretty sure it's all original minus the few things that have been added to the house since it was built. I will more than likely call somebody to get it inspected. As for adding the breaker, not a problem here. Plus I haven't even gotten under the house to see if I can even get to the receptacle boxes with my hands, if I can't diy is out of the question because I have no clue by then.

gdb

Go to the library and secondarily, the internet, educate yourself on how to correctly/safely perform simple circuit wiring. Proceed cautiously, and always with the mains off until you get a lot of experience, then you can work some stuff "hot". There must be at least 200 books for electric DIY. Be careful-have fun !

doctor r

What you would be doing essentially is making a dedicated circuit for your electronics. This is often done and is a good idea just to get free of the electrical contamination of the lights and other outlets. BE CAREFUL. Find a friend who knows about wiring or hire an electrician (many do like a side job) to be safe. It does sound like you need to start planning for a whole house rewire in the near future for your families ultimate safety.

Mr. Sharpe

I appreciate the words. I'm actually in the process of getting HVAC certified and am in the electricity part of that course now, yesterday it just clicked "those aren't grounded, I want to and need to fix that". and yeah, them being on with a ton of other junk like lights and like ten other outlets is just stupid. My instructor told me it's not hard to just add a breaker for this stuff, I just have to figure out first if I can get in there to do it, then figure out how many amps of a breaker I'll need, attach the wires first to the ground, neutral and hot, and click in the breaker while off then put in receptacles. Safety first, yes, much of the safety stuff he talked about I was like "uh duh!" haha. but yeah, I have to learn how to work around "hot" stuff anyway so that should just be oh so much. I've already stuck my hand to the dryer wire plugged in like an idiot, and accidentally touched one of the hot breaker terminals lol

I figure I could get away with spending $100 or less to do $600 worth of fixin. and just for now it will only be those two outlets. It was at first only for the electronics etc. but since I found that without a ground an electrical leak can just shock your butt or catch something on fire because the electricity has nowhere to go but into the receptacle box.

ibewbrother

Well....something i know about... As a previous post says..you probably have a 60 amp service..into the 60's people were still using 100 amp services. In my own home (early 60's), I've added a new sub feed for a few things, but I have a 200 service with a breaker/meter base box at the main. I do still have the old 120vac fuse box, that still seems to work well. Although I am afraid it would hurt my sleep if I put my amp meter on some of the circuits.

I have put new services in old houses before, and you can spend as much money as you want. Twice I have replaced old meter boxes with new 200 amp services, both times I just added a nice 42 circuit panel right under it. What happens then is you take the guts out of the old fuse box and just use it as a junction box, running new wires (or if you have a friend who works in heavy industry...a few multi-conductor cable to the new panel. Now for the fun...the best way to go about it is to make yourself a print....take out a fuse... what stops working. Write it down and go underneath and overhead and see what wires you can see. What you are looking for is a place to "split" the circuit.... cut the wire and run a new feed (breaker) to the other part..leaving the rest alone.

Best thing to do...of course...is a complete rewire. Not cheap. Copper is high as all hell right now. Example...I wired a friends house 6 years ago...12-2 romex $90 for 1000ft. Now $390. If you leave most stuff alone...and then just run stuff for specific needs....New home theater plug...New air conditioner... then you can cut some wire costs. If you do go complete rewire....just go ahead and buy a 1000ft reel....It goes fast.

Buy a non-contact voltage tester....I use a Greenlee, but Fluke makes a good one...for about $30. When you are crawling around under a house looking for wires to cut....you need it.


All I can think of right off....If you have any specific questions ask and I'll try to get back an answer.

Good Luck

Brother (Journeyman Inside Wireman since 2001)

gdb

HVAC course ??? I guess those animals haven't gotten to the chainsaw chapter yet. Duct people are the lowest life form on the jobsite, they can and will F up anything in their way to run ducts. Simply routing a wire/cable or two should only require a small chainsaw ! JK, get some Greenlee auger bits and fish tapes, fishing cables ain't that hard to do. Oh yeah.....a Sawzall is a huge help.

disneyjoe7

I feel yes this your house needs to be rewired but.....


There's somethings the 2 wire outlet stuff is BX cable if done in the 50's. The BX is the ground may like to check that for a ground if you're looking for the cheap way out.

ibewbrother

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

I feel yes this your house needs to be rewired but.....


There's somethings the 2 wire outlet stuff is BX cable if done in the 50's. The BX is the ground may like to check that for a ground if you're looking for the cheap way out.

Only problem is in this scenario...the BX might be aluminum. Aluminum Romex was outlawed in the 60's. Expansion and contraction of the wire with heat is worse with aluminum....loosening the lugs on all of the devices....causing arcing...causing fires. If the OP has aluminum wiring, I would advise replacing it all...or at least getting really good fire insurance.

Electrical technology changes over time...just like in the Audio/video arena. What was the new thing in 1955, or whenever, might have been figured out to be a bad idea over time. I've seen panels(Federal Pacific?) in a shopping mall near my home where the breakers would not trip....at all. Holding a live 277vac wire to ground and basically welding it to a box for a few seconds, while it makes a terrible noise, kind of like a groan, and you'll get the picture.

Ironically enough...very early Knob and Tube wiring is still considered to be a safe wiring method....because the hot and neutral only come together at the devices....eliminating arcing potential at any random point in the run.

disneyjoe7

I hear ya, but if illegal then it should be replaced, but who's going to enforce this? He not selling the house, and he's not getting a permit so who's going to force an upgrade. He needs a ground only why not adding a ground clip and replacing a 2 outlet to a 3 outlet. What's the issue, because he touched the outlet, everything needs to be replaced.

I know Federal Pacific panel suck bad, and I would never sleep at night knowing I had one of those panels. I didn't know that BX was built with Aluminum shielding, but I see today's BX is built with steel.

ken brydson

I've got a Federal Pacific panel. Been having problems with a breaker tripping lately for no reason. Got an electrician coming this afternoon to bid the panel replacement.

pdxfj

The city inspector that came to sign off on my new panel and service said they automatically fail any house that has a Federal Pacific panel in it, as does any inspectors that look over a house before purchase.

Don't trust any of the original wiring. It may still be serviceable, but you'll be better off swapping it out. Make it a project you work on over time. As I get time I run a new circuit to a bedroom or something and swap out the original wire. They did funky things back in the day for running power since not a whole lot was needed.

Here's an example of what I ran across when re-wiring two bedrooms and the bathroom.

1 20A circuit using 12-2 wire, no ground. Came from panel, into outlet in back bedroom. Jumped from there up to the bedroom light JBox. From JBox down to other bedroom outlet, one run to light switch and one hot run to closet light. Closet light is pull chain fixture. From closet light JBox to bathroom light JBox. One run to light switch, one run over to vanity light JBox. Vanity light was pull chain light. From that Jbox one run over to master bedroom light switch, and one run to an outlet in master bedroom. From same vanity light JBox, a 12-3 wire (no ground) for switched light in master bedroom and un-switched hot to master bed light JBox. Un-switched hot from 12-3 split off to feed other two outlets in master bedroom and one outlet in living room. Closet in the master bedroom is a pull chain light that is fed from another circuit that includes the kitchen, dining room and half the living room. Can't quite get at it right now, so it has to stay as is.

Each bedroom got a dedicated 20A circuit for the outlets and one dedicated 15A for the lights. Bathroom is on its own dedicated circuit for the lights and fan, and I added a dedicated GFI. Bathroom never had an outlet or fan until I installed them. Half of the living room is on its own 20A circuit. Rewiring the other half will be more of a challenge since I have so much to split up.

Ahh.. home ownership.. the projects never end...

gdb

I don't think BX sheathed cable ever used aluminun conductors inside the steel, spiral wound sheath. the newer stuff, MC/Metal Clad is copper surrounded by an aluminum spiral wound sheath, or armor to be more precise. Aluminum conductors are only safe when used for SEC purposes and even then, it needs to heve the piss torqued out of it with a Noalox grease coating the connections. If you can't fish new cables then perhaps Wiremold will serve. It's not attractive but, it's easy and SAFE.
http://www.wiremoldproducts.com/?gclid=CPX86tfdjK8CFcJM4AodChnNrw

Mr. Sharpe

there is no BX wire in the house as far as I know.

New developments though, we had a water pump that was on a fuse box in the house right? the pump is gone bc of age and would cost $3500 to just drill another well. Well that fuse box has all of those other outlets and junk on that one break to where you can take that fuse out and it turns the same stuff off. I actually pulled the main switch out of that fuse box a little while ago, didn't know it said "main" on the front, the other says "range" that will turn the living room off... it's really confusing. But I tore out the wire that was going to the water pump a little while ago because there's no need for it. Oh and there's a plug under the car cover too, on it's own breaker too. One outlet.

I still haven't gotten under the house. I used my meter yesterday and it has a little stick on it that will sense electrical lines and what not, well there's a lot of it in the ceiling. hopefully that's not the outlets and just the lights.

I'm not sure if I said this earlier but this house has been rewired since, probably around the 60's or 70's, when ground wires weren't used.... and there is another smaller breaker box ON IT'S OWN BREAKER in the bigger box. There are two breakers with wires in them that I haven't a clue what they turn on or off:( I'm really hoping they are for the heaters in the bathrooms because we never use them so I figure if that's what they're for I can just take one of the breakers out for them for good and just use one of them for the two outlets I want to do. Or tie those two heaters together on a bigger breaker. and use the vacant breaker or one bigger if needed for the outlets. Oh at the breaker box the wire going into the breaker from the living room and bedrooms is silver in color, so I'm assuming there is some sort of box adapter thing that the wires for each room come out of?

But again, I still have yet to get under the house and look. Once I do that if I ever do it I'll be able to give everybody a much better idea about whether or not I myself will be able to do it. Pretty sad I know but everyday I get home my wife has me doing something and I can't do anything I have on my schedule. I know none of ya'll have that problem... lol

But yea, when the world ends I'll be able to get under the house and see what's goin on and probably post another thread so this one doesn't get too confusing.

disneyjoe7

I don't know but we're talk knot and tube wiring here?


All in all sorry I posted in this thread, above sounds like a house fire hazard.

Mr. Sharpe

Why are you sorry you posted in this thread?

The wire looks like any thick wire for wiring a house without ground.

the way I see it, it's not like the house is a ticking time-bomb... Dad does have insurance on it. it's been wired like this for probably 30 or more years. No need for hurry I suppose.

disneyjoe7

Could you take some pictures of the fuse box and post them?

Mr. Sharpe

yes i can... I just noticed but the inside of the box says "federal" in the fuse box. not sure what the brand name on the breaker box is though. Here's a nice big detailed pic of it. As you can plainly see the word "federal" on each of those large pull-out switch dealio's.

ibewbrother

Is that your main? Just behind the meter....I mean?

disneyjoe7

^^ I'm sure it is.


When was this house built late 40's?

hewlew1

Probably 60 amp fuses in the mains and 40 amp fuses for the range portion. My biggest concern is the 4- 30 amp fuses for the rest of the house as I doubt the house is wired with 10 gauge wire. This area would be the area I address first. Go to the store and replace those 4 fuses with 20 amp fuses 30 is just asking for trouble, as far as a dedicated line for you system forget about it and set your goal on a new service and complete rewire of the home.

disneyjoe7

Mr. Sharpe wrote: »

Why are you sorry you posted in this thread?

I should have never given you an idea that you maybe able to fix your trouble, without knowing the whole picture. Honest your 30amp fuse, I'm sure they are not should be 30amp fuses, but more like a 15amp circuit. Those fuses came as 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 amp fuses. Putting a 30amp fuse in a 15amp fuse place doesn't fix the trouble, but may start your house on fire. The wire will get too hot, and start a fire.

Sorry yes I serious.