New Pioneer Receivers

m60cs2

The 2012 models are out. I noticed that the VSX 1122 doesn't have the Advanced direct energy amps. There isn't much difference between the 1022 and 1122.

m60cs2

The 1122 doesn't have pre outs.

m60cs2

They really took a great product(VSX 1121) and stripped it of what make it great.

B Run

m60cs2 wrote: »

They really took a great product(VSX 1121) and stripped it of what make it great.

Yeah no preouts or removable power cord??? I had an 1120 for a while and it did a good job but I feel like every year it just gets worse. My old 1015 is built way heavier, has preouts and sounded just as good if not better than the 1120 by itself, and I got it for dirt cheap off craigslist. I personally wouldn't buy anything without preouts and preferably a removable power cord, seems like they screwed up something that was just fine how it was.

Sherardp

Would love to see what they do with the Elite line up.

mantis

I can't see much they can do with the 5 series Elites other then improve HDMI which sucks on anything you have. Stable and faster switching is what I would wish for along with a Gloss black faceplate and ditch this plain NON ELITE look they got going on.

drummer86

Don't know why companies are dropping preouts. Harman did the same thing on their AVRs. 254/354 both had preouts, then only 3600, now none of them do. Marantz doesn't have preouts on the sr5006 but did on the sr5005.

leroyjr1

mantis wrote: »

I can't see much they can do with the 5 series Elites other then improve HDMI which sucks on anything you have. Stable and faster switching is what I would wish for along with a Gloss black faceplate and ditch this plain NON ELITE look they got going on.

I can think of a bunch of things Pioneer needs to improve on. I want Pioneers SQ with Denon and Onkyo's features.

tonyb

drummer86 wrote: »

Don't know why companies are dropping preouts. Harman did the same thing on their AVRs. 254/354 both had preouts, then only 3600, now none of them do. Marantz doesn't have preouts on the sr5006 but did on the sr5005.

Dropping preouts because people are getting advice like on this forum to get amps instead of having to buy that bigger receiver that they want you to move up to. All about the coin bro.

LuSh

Tonyb....no it's because the average consumer is purchasing smaller lifestyle speakers...

tonyb

LuSh wrote: »

Tonyb....no it's because the average consumer is purchasing smaller lifestyle speakers...

Good point....and one that is probably more plausable. I think both reasons played into their decision. Still, it limits the consumers choice, and in my book thats not a good thing.

jbooker82

leroyjr1 wrote: »

I can think of a bunch of things Pioneer needs to improve on. I want Pioneers SQ with Denon and Onkyo's features.

Like what 4k upscaling / processing? The ability to have different xo points for different speakers?

Marty913

I think tonyb is closer to the truth. I doubt Pioneer (and the others) are saying "Gee, we really don't need pre-outs because some people buy smaller speakers - so we should do them a favor and drop the pre-outs". Given that adding pre-outs probably adds < $10 to the cost, I also doubt it's a money-saving effort. Given that Pioneer, HK, Denon, Sony, and Onkyo are not primarily in the amp business, it is probably because leaving them off forces you to buy the next receiver up the line, or to upgrade sooner. Regardless, it just means people serious about this hobby will shop elsewhere (or already have).

tonyb

That was my thought. If you have a midline receiver without preouts, your going to spend that coin on another more powerfull receiver usually within the brand you like. In pioneers case, they want you upgrading to the Elites, which will handle a wider range of speakers and keeps the money in their pockets.

If you had a midline receiver with preouts, your spending that extra coin on amps at various other manufacturers and their products.

Kex

Noticed today's Woot! was a Pioneer Elite VSX-40 for $285 shipped. Sounds good, if you want a new Elite instead of the standard AVR product, but ... NO pre-outs ... ! On an Elite model?! Same thing for the VSX-50 and VSX-51, apparently. I find that even more surprising that the other models discussed earlier.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/AV-Receivers/Elite+Receivers

cnh

No pre-outs on an Elite is NOT acceptable. I mean, the arguments above should not apply to the higher end series of an AVR maker! No?

This process of putting pre-out models at higher and higher levels has been going on, I'd say, for several years or more. You can go back to Denon AVR-887 (2307) which has pre-outs and a MSRP of 6 or 700, I think. The next year only the 2808 had them. years later even higher models.

For Pioneer. The 1018 used to weigh over 30 lbs and have pre-outs, the next year it lost over 10 lbs and had no pre-outs.

Currently even the HK 36XX series does NOT have pre-outs.

Onkyo has kept pres on the 70X series though! Any other makers?

It is an irritating trend. Because it isn't just the pre-outs. It's also cheaper internal construction, less "real" power, etc. in order to bring more features and keep profits in line (which I guess makes business sense).

cnh

m60cs2

What really sucks, is that I bought a VSX-52 and it didn't fit in the only shelf space where I can put a receiver. The 1121 (same receiver without the Elite tag) was on sale at newegg this weekend for $399. The 1122 will fit in the shelf, but I don't want it. My old Denon AVR-590 is doing fine for now.

What's out there thats new, has good power, pre outs and is less than 16" deep?

jbooker82

Onkyo TX-NR709 is only 15" deep.

jbooker82

Maybe Pioneer just figures you don't need an external amplification with all that good ice power.

tonyb

jbooker82 wrote: »

Maybe Pioneer just figures you don't need an external amplification with all that good ice power.

Could be another reason, but that ice power while good on it's own, isn't the be all end all. To me, with the trends in removing preouts from receivers and source componants, the idea is to keep you brand specific. They probably figure too that those with the coin will move on anyway from receivers.

m60cs2

I don't think the 1122 has ice amps. It had the direct energy amp.

Kex

jbooker82 wrote: »

Maybe Pioneer just figures you don't need an external amplification with all that good ice power.

Just about ALL of those discussed (I haven't read the whole thread over again), including ALL of the Elite models I mentioned, do NOT have ICE power. From what I can tell,

• Only the SC-55 and SC-57 use class D, "ICE" digital amplification.
• None of the Elite VSX models do, which is another disappointment in my view of the Elite brand vs. the standard Pioneer receiver products.
• The VSX-53 and VSX-52 use "Advanced Direct Energy".
• The VSX-51, VSX-50 and VSX-40 use the lowly (apparently, since it's not "Advanced") "Direct Energy", which is the same brand name given to the amplification capabilities of the standard Pioneer receiver products.

According to Pioneer:

... our Advanced Direct Energy (A.D.E.) MOSFET amplifier produces an amazingly efficient, high-end sound quality with equally amplified power for each channel, to ensure consistent sound quality for multi-channel applications.

http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/42/98/tech/AVAmplifierReceiver/Discrete_Output_MOSFET.html

If you haven't had enough marketing blurb yet, here's the press release:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Press-Room/Home-Entertainment/New+Pioneer+AV+Receivers+Allows+Consumers+to+Realize+High+Definition+Era+of+Home+Theater

If I were ever to switch from NAD for Home Theater duty, Pioneer Elite was at the top of my list, but it looks like I'd be stuck with the choice between just two models.