New Polk setup questions

Senzo Tanaka

Just finished my Polk Audio set up this weekend and I have some questions.

My setup is as follows:

Front: Monitor 60
Rear: Monitor 40
Center: CS2
Sub: BIC F12
Receiver: Denon 1612

I'm very happy with just how crisp and clear all of the audio is but I have to say that I'm a little unhappy with the "fullness" of the sound.

I set everything up multiple times with Audyssey and started my tweaking from there. It set my sub as -11db which made it virtually non-existent and set the the crossover to 80hz on the sub and between 40-60hz for everything else.

As per recommendations in other threads, I kept the gain on the sub the same and increased the db on the receiver and set the hz to 120. This helped bass output quite a bit.

Still, the fronts, rears and especially the center channel seem disappointing. The audio is clear, but the center seems to stick out as being almost too tinny and just doesn't have any fullness to it. I've heard good things about the CS2 so I think this may be a set up issue or maybe it's my source material which isn't pushing it hard enough.

Any suggestions?

DaveHCYJ

You could try enabling DynamicEQ -- it boosts the lower frequencies at lower volumes which will make it sound more full.

You could also just ignore what Audyssey set for your sub and turn it up a bit -- I fiddle with my sub gain all the time to suit my needs. I know right where the dial goes for turning it back to the "Audyssey setting", but I often turn the bass down to not anger my neighbors. Mid day or weekends I'll turn it back to the Audyssey setting.

gdpeck

Turn the sub volume down on the sub, not on the receiver, and then run Audyssey again. I don't recall where I read that recommendation, but it worked well for me.

gce

I don't have Audyssey anymore but the basics are the same. Before you run Audyssey set your sub's phase at 0, the volume at half and the freq to max (120Hz or higher). The sub should be close to 0 after you run Audyssey. All you speakers should be set to Small and at 80Hz. This is a good starting point.

Senzo Tanaka

I guess I'm confused a bit on Audyssey. Since it set my sub to -11db, is running the set up and fiddling with the sub to get it to read it at 0db any different than me going in and telling it 0db?

tommyt21

gce wrote: »

I don't have Audyssey anymore but the basics are the same. Before you run Audyssey set your sub's phase at 0, the volume at half and the freq to max (120Hz or higher). The sub should be close to 0 after you run Audyssey. All you speakers should be set to Small and at 80Hz. This is a good starting point.

+1 this is how you do it. I have had all the same speakers as you in my previous setup. It definetly sounds like your **** the pouch during the setup with Audyssey.

example your sub trim level is being set to -11db this is what audessy says about that "The level control on the subwoofer is often set too high. This can cause the AV Receiver to run out of level correction range when MultEQ tries to set the subwoofer to reference level. Set the subwoofer level control to the midpoint. If MultEQ reports high negative trims (e.g., ?12 dB) for the subwoofer, then you should turn the level control further down and run MultEQ again"
Your getting -11db trim because you have your sub turned up to loud and its **** up the calibration. after calibration you can turn the sub back to a desired level.


In laymans terms:

Step 1: Walk over to your sub and turn the volume(gain) to 9 o'clock.

Step 2: If there is a Phase control on the sub it should be set to 0?

Step 3: Turn your BIC frequency nob to 200hz (max) "If there is no direct input, then the lowpass filter knob on the subwoofer should be permanently set to the highest frequency it allows. That way it will not interfere with the MultEQ measurements and bass management
"
Step 4: Set all other speakers to small (crossover 80hz).

Step 5: Place your microphone on a tripod or hard surface at ear level in the listening postion.

Step 6: Rerun calibration.

Tips & Tricks http://idisk.mac.com/mschuetze-Public/AudysseyTipsTricks.pdf
Hope this helps :cheesygrin::cheesygrin:

Senzo Tanaka

@tommyt21

Nice, detailed pose. That helps a lot.

Should I keep lowering the volume on the sub until I get Audyssey to set the sub at close to 0db?

Once the sub is properly calibrated, will this help the center channel? The CS2 seems a bit tinny and just doesn't seem to have much fullness or bass response out of it with dialogue. This may be normal but I expected it to be leaps and bounds better than my HTIAB center but it just seems marginal.

tommyt21

Senzo Tanaka wrote: »

@tommyt21

Nice, detailed pose. That helps a lot.

Should I keep lowering the volume on the sub until I get Audyssey to set the sub at close to 0db?

Once the sub is properly calibrated, will this help the center channel? The CS2 seems a bit tinny and just doesn't seem to have much fullness or bass response out of it with dialogue. This may be normal but I expected it to be leaps and bounds better than my HTIAB center but it just seems marginal.

Nope, just set that sub volume to 9 o'clock, dont worry about Audessy setting the sub trim level to 0, My Pioneer typical sets my sub to +2. I then I go in and bump it to +3 over my mains and turn my subs volume up from 9-12 o'clock. From what I understand. It's not going to set your speaker trim levels all to 0 thats not how it works. Thats why its a calibration, it sets trim levels in response to characteristics of the speakers and room response. An example if one of you surrounds is 9 ft away on the right and the other is 3 ft away on the left you may get a trim level difference between the two of >.5db.

Some of these other guys on the forum are 10 times smarter than I and this lame explanation I gave. Maybe they will chime in, however I do know that it is not necessary to worry about Audssey setting your sub trim level to zero.

P.S. Regarding your CS2 pull the grill off and check and see that the woofers are moving when sound is played through. Maybe you have a loose wire. My CS2 was anything but tinny. Also a correctly calibrated sub should help with Male dialog.

ravaneli

Forget about the calibration until u figure why you are lacking fullness.

Set all speaker to Small and Xo to80, like advised above.

But the gain or 'volume' on the sub, whatever it's called, set it to almost max. Then the db on the receiver should be similar to that of the speakers.

Don't run calibration, just test it like that. That SHOULD give u rich sound.

You have a perfect match between all of your speakers and perfectly capable of rich sound. Congrats

Senzo Tanaka

tommyt21 wrote: »

Nope, just set that sub volume to 9 o'clock, dont worry about Audessy setting the sub trim level to 0, My Pioneer typical sets my sub to +2. I then I go in and bump it to +3 over my mains and turn my subs volume up from 9-12 o'clock. From what I understand. It's not going to set your speaker trim levels all to 0 thats not how it works. Thats why its a calibration, it sets trim levels in response to characteristics of the speakers and room response. An example if one of you surrounds is 9 ft away on the right and the other is 3 ft away on the left you may get a trim level difference between the two of >.5db.

Some of these other guys on the forum are 10 times smarter than I and this lame explanation I gave. Maybe they will chime in, however I do know that it is not necessary to worry about Audssey setting your sub trim level to zero.

Now I'm a little confused again. I get that I want to set my sub gain at 9:00 and then run Audyssey. I guess the goal is for Audyssey to get as close to 0db as possible, correct? Let's say it registers it at -11db again. Do I want to keep turning the gain down on the sub until it gets close to 0db? What is the difference between Audyssey setting the db level versus me going in and manually changing it to 0db on the receiver? Is Audyssey making additional tweaks?

Geoff4rfc

ravaneli wrote: »

But the gain or 'volume' on the sub, whatever it's called, set it to almost max.

Having the volume turned up too high was what got him to -11 in the first place.

To the OP, optimally, your sub should eq between -3 and +3.

Your question about turning the volume down to get to your desired level is what I did and it worked.

tommyt21

Senzo Tanaka wrote: »

Now I'm a little confused again. I get that I want to set my sub gain at 9:00 and then run Audyssey. I guess the goal is for Audyssey to get as close to 0db as possible, correct? Let's say it registers it at -11db again. Do I want to keep turning the gain down on the sub until it gets close to 0db? What is the difference between Audyssey setting the db level versus me going in and manually changing it to 0db on the receiver? Is Audyssey making additional tweaks?

I'll probably make an error in this explanation but here it goes, this is how I understand it.

All the trim level is basically, is the volume of each the speakers in reference to the refrerence level of the calibration process. What your refering to as 0, I beleive is the actaul reference loudness is 75db for most calibration. However it is refered to as 0 the base. -11db on your sub means that your avr is making your sub -11db quiter than the base level of (75db approx/reference calibration volume, "test tones"). When the calibration process occurs the Audssey processor is calculating many things including distance, frequency capabilties, standing waves. Your trim levels will depend on your speakers, there distance and how you like things to sound at the listening position. Example i like to run my fronts at +5 heights at +4, rears +4.5 and my center at + 6.5 with my sub coming in at a whopping +8 ( Ilove my bass). This is my levels for my room with my equipment. Yours will most likley be different. I can achieve this same ratio I described above by setting FR +2 Heights +1, Rears +1.5 Center +3.5 and sub +5 by just turning the main volume up by +3... Do you kind of see now what the whole trim and volume thing is about.

Setting your Physical sub volume lower just helps the processor in your reciever calibrate distance and such more easily and accurately. After the calibration is finished you may turn the Volume/gain up on the sub how ever high you like for your taste in bass. I would caution going above 3/4 volume on the sub you may be asking for trouble.

Hope this helps

tommyt21

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

Having the volume turned up too high was what got him to -11 in the first place.

To the OP, optimally, your sub should eq between -3 and +3.

Your question about turning the volume down to get to your desired level is what I did and it worked.

+1 Exactly, That -3 AND +3 can be above/below zero or above/below what you set your own reference point to be like I explained above. I set every thing above zero so I dont have to turn the main volume up as much, lol but it is all just volume ratio's to the other speakers and the reference volume.

If you notice I run my sub at +3 over my Mains I'm pushing the envelope..LOL

tommyt21

Try rerunning your calibration like we explained above and I bet you will come in at that -3 to +3 range which you can leave or adjust to your liking.

Geoff4rfc

tommyt21 wrote: »

If you notice I run my sub at +3 over my Mains I'm pushing the envelope..LOL

That's a pretty beefy sub you've got, +3 should be a bumpin'. I've recently set mine to +5, when the wife complains, I turn it down to 0, when she's gone, I turn it up to +10

tommyt21

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

That's a pretty beefy sub you've got, +3 should be a bumpin'. I've recently set mine to +5, when the wife complains, I turn it down to 0, when she's gone, I turn it up to +10

I love that freaking sub.... I wish I could get another but I would have to save up for a big diamond first..:redface: When I have the Pioneer set to (sub-plus)... Wholly crap:eek: I have now noticed that I can see dry wall nails through out my house because that sub has poped the plaster of the tops:eek::redface:

ravaneli

why would the calibration give different result now? It calibrates one speaker at a time. It will still assing -11db.

Try it like I suggested; this won't be a final setting, just do it to test the fullness of the sound.

My pioneer has a terrible calibration anyway. In both rooms, different setup, calibration is always pretty bad. It guesses the speaker distance to 1/10th of a foot, but the decibels assignments.. i don't like them that way. Also I don't like the EQ that it always turns on.
I turn all processing off and adjust the levels myself until I like them.

Geoff4rfc

ravaneli wrote: »

why would the calibration give different result now? It calibrates one speaker at a time. It will still assing -11db.

With variable gain on the sub, you will get vairable db setting from audessy, have you never experienced this?

tommyt21

ravaneli wrote: »

why would the calibration give different result now? It calibrates one speaker at a time. It will still assing -11db.

Try it like I suggested; this won't be a final setting, just do it to test the fullness of the sound.

My pioneer has a terrible calibration anyway. In both rooms, different setup, calibration is always pretty bad. It guesses the speaker distance to 1/10th of a foot, but the decibels assignments.. i don't like them that way. Also I don't like the EQ that it always turns on.
I turn all processing off and adjust the levels myself until I like them.

Dude, that is contrary to anything I have ever heard. The OP is attempting to calibrate the subs distance a decibel level in reference to the front mains and the listening position. If your method works for you thats great, however your the only person I have ever come across that reccomends your particular method. I have found my MCACC calibration from my Pio Elite SC-35 to be very, very good. I suspect that Audssey is very good as well. As far as your measurments being off that is most likley due to room acoustics, so it would be my assumption that what the mic measures is what your ear and brain will percieve as a measurement. As I have mentioned before you can tweak your settings after calibration to your hearts content but at least the calibration gives a great foundation for someone new .
All IMHO

Geoff4rfc

tommyt21 wrote: »

All IMHO

+1000

Senzo Tanaka

I ended up getting the sub to register at -2.5db and just adjusted it manually from there. Does that seem about right?

I'm still a little iffy on the CS2 center channel. The dialogue is clear and crisp but doesn't seem to have a lot of depth or fullness to it. I wouldn't call it tinny but it just doesn't sound as good as the other speakers. Granted I haven't found a lot of center channel stuff to test, do you think it's just the source material, just how the speaker is or another setup problem?

tonyb

Senzo Tanaka wrote: »

I ended up getting the sub to register at -2.5db and just adjusted it manually from there. Does that seem about right?

I'm still a little iffy on the CS2 center channel. The dialogue is clear and crisp but doesn't seem to have a lot of depth or fullness to it. I wouldn't call it tinny but it just doesn't sound as good as the other speakers. Granted I haven't found a lot of center channel stuff to test, do you think it's just the source material, just how the speaker is or another setup problem?

Adjust the speakers manually to your taste, the auto calibration isn't written in stone. Change the center to large instead of small for a fuller sound. Change the sub level to 0 and adjust up or down from there to what you like.