new set up little bit of a concern and question

wood4sheep2

Hi,

some of this is right for this area and some of it may need to be in a different thread topic. Sorry newbie here.

I havnt bought any serious speaker equipment in years. Lets just say that my main L/R speakers until recently were two double sets of advents from the seventies that I have reconed twice....

I finally plowed into the future or present and upgraded my reciever to a pioneer vsx-1121. Love this for the ipad control of my reciever and the zone two set up in kitchen.

I put some serious research in and decided my best bang for the buck with my monetary threshold was Polk. I bought:
CSI a6, pair Rti A9s and Fxi A6. I use them with my blu-ray--,HD tv, and pandora or cd's

I love all the speakers except I am getting a gravelly rough edge to the voices on the center speaker. I tried per call to Polk breaking them in. I have left the speakers on running various inputs on 6 different days. I think it is somewhat better but it still irritates me. I tried per the call to polk to isolate the issue by switching the center speaker to a side speaker to see if it is the receiver. I felt the sound was much better thru the RTia9 almost wanted to buy one more to lie on its side for the center.

So.... should I break in more or is this normal or would an amp help? The gravelly voices get to me. (that sounds craxy LOL)

And on that note I need some advice (this is part that might should go elsewhere) If I do need amplification. I have never used an exterior amp in my life and am lost. I was able to bi-amp the rtia9s on my reciever by disabling the zone 2 of my vsx-1121 pioneer and changing the function. The sound was definitely better much better on the L/Rs
So... if the center needs an amplifier or all do. Do I need one amplifier or lots. What wattage is right for the center or a9's and what about the fxi a6's do they need it too. the pioneer stats say 110 per channel. It seems a lot of people make clear amps do wonderful things. I am just feeling newbish and at a loss. Also could I get some amp worth going at around 500.00 or do I need to save up. I am a bit tapped out after all these expenditures.....
It was worth it when we watched DRIVE on Blu-ray with the bi-amp of the a9's!!!! Thanks for any input.

flyfisher

Have you ran MCACC yet?

wood4sheep2

Yes i have run mcacc.

pyrocyborg

I think that your A9 may be taking a lot of the power available to your AVR, thus causing your center to sound brighter as there is probably less bass. Well, I tell you that because A9 towers are power hungry (or should I say, power happy) and to sound at their best, they need an external amp. They may be "monopolizing" most ressources available, so there is almost none left for your surround and center... and the center is the most important one for dialogue!

Also, it may sound "bright" as you're not used to it... but the RTi line offers a detailed, bright and very forward ("in your face") sound which is not for everyone, expecially for music. But for HT, they're awesome, but I used to tame down their harshness using the treble knob...

Another concern may be the Bi-amping on the same receiver. When you're only using 2 channels (well... in that case, 4 channels), it might not be that bad. However, when you're using every single channel on your receiver, you're asking a lot as this kind of "bi-amping", if I am correct, may cut your speaker impedance in half. Then, instead of seing a 8 ohm load, your amp is seing a 4 ohm load, and it's to ask a lot for a mid-level receiver. At casual listening level, it isn't a problem, but during movies nights, it may be hard for your receiver.

Don't get me wrong, it probably sound awesome, but don't crank it too much or you might fry your receiver. :cheesygrin:

And don't take every word for truth, expecially mine. Studying behavioral sciences, I try to be as objective as possible, but I know that we're often driven subjectively (our beliefs, emotions, etc.)... I read most of what I write on these forums, both in serious studies and more casual ones... (a.k.a someone's experience). The rest is what my experience dictates me... :cool: ahhh the beauty of the Internet!

wood4sheep2

I only bi amped to try it out. I realize that my reciever is midrange but it has the features i wanted and has pre outs. So... I am thinking that I can do pretty well with ponying up For amp(s) then. But now I am totally in the dark. Any tips as to what I am looking for how much i might have to spend. Dont mind used in this case. Any thoughts appreciated.. I feel like I have baked a pie half way!

pyrocyborg

Used, you can have Adcom or Carver amps that will do more than what you ask them, but there, you lose me as I never get used stuff... don't know why.

New, you can go for Emotiva but a lot of people here will tell you there is better out there for a little more, and they are probably right. Anything with 100w will be better than the amp you currently have in your receiver (for example, I now have a 50w per channel NAD integrated amp... it's probably twice as loud than my 5x100w Yamaha receiver... but those RTiA9 are monsters and require power! Polk recommand an amplifier capable of at least 50w to make them "work", and about 500w to power them at their maximum. From what I read, they are quite pleased with 250 or 300w. Keep in consideration that there is 3 small subs in there, and that requires a lot of power even at low level.

So, with the right power, they can be tamed and be very musical, and that amount depends on your room size, listening level, and such. I'm sure the CSiA6 feels the same way about power (but in a way lesser extent) and with around 200w, it could sound warmer.

But wait a little, see if you can tame the brightness without buying anything else (adjusting center channel tonality... or something like that, or reducing treble by a 2 or 3 dB), because the power issue might not even be the real problem. Sure, an amp is always welcomed, but you don't have to squeeze your budget yet as you can enjoy your set that way, I'm sure.

If you want to do your upgrades in "small steps", you can either go with a 2 channel for your front left and right, or a 3 channel amp and let your receiver do surround duty for now. Many people are pleased with those results with the larger towers (LSi15/RTiA9)... but there again, I don't know why that center channel is way too bright when compared to the other ones. You could try running only your center channel, to see if it still sound way too bright for dialogues?

wood4sheep2

Very cool... Ummm i just looked up and the csia6 recommended to 200 actual stat is 250 so...
If i get one amp for all 3 it would have to be 200amp max. Unless i buy one for the l/r first and the i assume there are ones for centers. The receiver i have is rated 110 per channel but thru some reading now on some other posts i guess this is misleading and not acurat? So if i give juice sperate to the a9's it leaves more juice from the receiver for the surrounds. The subwoofer is powered so i am right in assuming that isnt dragging the others?

F1nut

Since you have a sub, where did you set the crossover point in your AVR? Generally, the 80Hz setting is recommended. If set to that, your 9's won't be playing full range and your AVR will thank you. As for the center, get into the menu to fine tune the settings. Programs like MCACC are great, but not the end all.

I tried per call to Polk breaking them in. I have left the speakers on running various inputs on 6 different days.

You need to get about 200 hours on them for full burn in.

wood4sheep2

Interesting.... At 8 hrs a day that is 48 plus actual use time lucky if we are breaking 100. So... One point is more days of break in! Crossover is set to 80 on the AVR with the subwoofer one turned off. I will try setting the center better. I t think the GUI interface program on my ipad bring up an equlizer page for each channel. So much good info I am ver y thankful

F1nut

I forgot to mention, all the speakers should be set to small.

pyrocyborg

Break in, if any, will be made in few minutes or hours on those speakers. After that, sure things may change, because every mechanical pieces are subject to, but you'll end with a sound very similar. Then, it's up to psychological adaptation more than anything. But let's not continue on this controversial subject, as you already did a good part of break-in so you're already in the game... You can continue to break them in, but I would try to fix that brightness issue before doing anything.

With your equalizer, if you can tame the center channel a little bit without affecting the other speakers, it should be fine and we could consider the issue solved! :razz:

As F1 said, you gotta set your towers to "small" (as well as every other channel), otherwise, they will still play the lower frequencies, which could result in double bass anyways which is kinda too much when you already have a capable sub. The general concensus is to use what suits you best, but letting your sub do the lower frequencies should really help the power issue as bass generally requires more power.

wood4sheep2

Confirmed they are all set to small

pyrocyborg

Uhm... so you had most things right up front :razz:!

Did you notice that breaking glass was kinda "harsh" in movies, or is it right for you? If you have to keep the remote with you to lower the volume during that kind of scenes, it might be a tad too bright. You could reduce the treble a little bit, and/or increase the bass accordingly (for example, -2 treble, +2 bass). That way, you could end with something warmer, even if you'll lose some "detail" that might be hidden in the treble range. I had these settings for HT duty, and only in rare occasions did I have to turn the volume down to prevent headaches. However, for music, RTi line tad too bright, even with correct amplification for bookshelf, but it doesn't really apply to a heavily powered tower like the RTiA9/RTi12, as they are the most musical RTi and must be somehow qualified as balanced speaker with a forward sound... so it might be a problem with the CSiA6 being too bright by nature to your liking.

wood4sheep2

When I go home today (having left the unit running for break in day #7) I will try to adjust the center speaker.
The problem isnt that it is too bright. While its brightness or warmth are things that I might want to have in some sort of sweet spot to my liking this is different.
It is more like Harry Potter speaking parseltounge. There is a harsh snake like edge to voices like they are snake people with harsh sssss sound that I feel is not clear to their voice. rough sound in a certain segment of the speaker voice.

Anyway... I also am researching the amp idea to power the a9's. Thinking 300 watt per channel for the LR rather than a 3 channel that also powers the CSiA6

F1nut

There is a harsh snake like edge to voices like they are snake people with harsh sssss sound that I feel is not clear to their voice. rough sound in a certain segment of the speaker voice.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. What you are hearing is called sibilance. The cause can be one or many factors and it can be tricky to eliminate. What brands/models of gear do you have connected to the Pioneer AVR? What brand/model of cables are you using? What is your room like? For example, is it carpeted, are there curtains on the windows, is the furniture upholstered or are there a lot of hard surfaces with lots of reflection points?

pyrocyborg

Yes, F1nut is spot on. Those "hisssss" you're hearing might be caused by reflection. Any mirrors around? As he said, every window should have a curtain, and if possible, you could try to have some rugs (like a big one under your couch), or add panels on your walls, either acoustics panels or simple canvas.

Some speakers may exacerbate this sibilance because they tend to reproduce a lot of high frequencies, but you can have a bright and detailed tweeter without any sibilance. Try to search "sibiliance speakers" on google, you'll have an handful of threads which may help you until someone gives you another advice.

Cables may help attenuate some frequencies, but I would start elsewhere for now.

F1nut

One other question. Where is your center channel located? Is it inside a cabinet, on the floor, etc.?

wood4sheep2

interesting I will google that term and learn more,


Here is the stats:
Room is 14 by 24 and the speakers are set the narrow way ( I bought the a9's knowing that I am tearing out a wall in the next couple of years and the room with be 24x24 but here we are for now)
Carpet floor drywall walls with drywall behing and a high ceiling above the unit that is 12 ft hight that tapers down to 8' across that is a wood ceiling. to the left facing it is a woodstove and hearth and a glass patio door. The wall facing it has two 6'x6' window units. There is a large couch and coffee table across from it.
To the right facing it is an opening 5 ft wide to go into the kitchen and a wall with a baby grand.
Until I find a cabinet I like unit is arranged on and under an old wooden coffee table.
The AVR is underneath facing along with the Blu-Ray and Apple TV. on top of the coffee table is the CSiA6 and to the Right the DirecTV DVR and two the left a WII. On the wall behind it is the flat screen 55" Television.

Equipment list:
Pioneer VSX-1121-k
Sharp Aquos 55" hooked to it with HDMI (standard fair cable not cheep not expensive)
DirectTV DVR hooked to it with HDMI standard grade and that has two cables to the antenna.
Wii with Composite cables standard grade
Samsung Blu-ray hooked with Monster HDMI
Apple TV hooked with HDMI standard level grade
Speakers all hooked together with 14 gauge wire from Radio Shack with gold plated Bannana Plugs on each end. carefully assembled!
Front: Rti A9s
Center: Csi A6
Surrounds: Fxi A6
Zone 2 in the kitchen goes to a pair of Radio Shack speaker I forgot to look at what they are. ( i have seen no bearing on when they are on with this issue)
controlled with Harmoney One remote and Ipad.

To be clear (no pun intended) I am the only one who has issue with the sound so it is not pronounced enough that my girlfriend or my kids complain. It is tolerable but more pronounced while watching TV where Voice is dominate. But it totallly bothers me. I must be an audiophile wannabe or something.

I played with the EQ for the center channel and while I could lesson it it did not go away. I tried again switching the center and in this case the right speaker wires and I found actually while it was less of an issue I felt the harssssh sss and ttts were still there actually.
So... here is the info thanks so much for the help with this. Although no one else in the house is bothered I am deeply.
also while this dicussion is going on I continue the "break in" of the speakers to remove that variable. Day 8 today!

wood4sheep2

Oh... and the windows have blinds that usually are down and partially open. No curtains.

pyrocyborg

wood4sheep2 wrote: »

To be clear (no pun intended) I am the only one who has issue with the sound so it is not pronounced enough that my girlfriend or my kids complain. It is tolerable but more pronounced while watching TV where Voice is dominate. But it totallly bothers me. I must be an audiophile wannabe or something.

Welcome in DA club... Some people are more sensible to this kind of sound, not only do they notice it better (some people can't even perceive it), but it's hard for them to focus their attention elsewhere. Keep in mind that everyone hears things differently, what may be harsh for you may be pleasing for someone else, or at least, far from being intolerable.

pyrocyborg

wood4sheep2 wrote: »

Oh... and the windows have blinds that usually are down and partially open. No curtains.

It might be part of the problem. Curtains won't absord as well, if not at all... and them being partially open doesn't help either. However, I know curtains aren't for everyone. Some people really dislike curtains... :P And I wouldn't tell you to change it without trying with some bedcloth first: that way, you could try to fix them to entirely cover your windows. If you can't hear a difference, it's probably not the "culprit".

Generally speaking, when I wanna do any kind of critical listening, I'm closing the curtains. Sure, my living room isn't treated either, so it's far from perfect but it's less "harsh" that way.

pyrocyborg

I'm thinking about something: What are your interconnect cables? Are they cheap "throw-away" ones they give with your receiver/CDP, DIY or quality ones (either audiophile brand or professional brand)? I do not know how long are your interconnects, but on somehow longer runs, a medium to high capacitance cable might help tame off some or the very high treble, so it might help reduce audible sibilance... but depending on the run and the capacitance of the cable, it might be less than a 0.5 dB difference at 20 kHz, which is difficultly noticeable. However, I prefer this fix to using a treble knob which eliminates useful frequencies too.

Anyways... keep in mind that sibilance is also a drawback of any revealing speaker : some people have a certain emphasis doing "ssss, shss, chss, zzzz" sounds when they speak. While very warm/laid back speakers might ignore these details, a forward or at least a "bright" speaker will unfortunately reveal it. Microphones used for recording might also be the cause, as sometimes, you need different mic for different persons. I still think reducing reflections might help tame this, but you'll always end up with a certain part of sibilance with revealing speakers... however, it won't be causing you headaches anymore!

BTW, I'm still partial to low capacitance interconnect cables for most uses though... it just sound better if you took care of the others causes of sibilance.

wood4sheep2

I appreciate your comments and time and also F1nut's...

While I have an untrained but selective ear, my instincts for things are generally spot on.
My instincts feel that some kind of issue is being spotted here and it is grating the sound and I think your opinions are helping me zone in on the issue.

It is observable through various media.
However it is more pronounced on TV.
So that generally rules out particular recording issues.
It is much more pronounce when the center signal is run thru the CSiA6
So that makes me think that it is either:

1.The speaker itself or some part of it that is not right like a bad capacitor or something (that is my crazy thought.. I dont even know what a capacitor is or why it would cause that)
2.The speaker wires to it (that I have switched so unlikely)
3. defective center channel sound from the AVR
4. The HDMI cables (could try buying a hi end one but why would the digital signal affect this one issue after conversion)
5. Reflective issues in the room or somehow interacting with the L/R Speakers (but that is why I bought into a matched set so thinking just reflective) Will try the sheets over the windows tonight
6.The fact that power is going so much to the a9's that the center doesnt have enough power.
(tempted to buy an amp anyway to clear that one up)
7. break in needed to warmup the speaker. (still working on that one)

When you talk about connective cables until such a time as I get an amp. the only connective cables are the HDMI ones to the AVR and the speaker wire. The speaker wire is expensive 14 gauge speaker wire bought from Radio Shack. I am sure there are better but it definitely isnt low end. The HDMI could be low range.

Again this is an education and help thansk so much

bikezappa

Try replacing the center speaker to see if the problem gets worse or better or stays the same.. Borrow a speaker if you can.

wood4sheep2

oh also since the problem is the front center speaker it is 1' away from the unit and has a short 14 gauge speaker wire so not a length issue. and the a9's are just to the left and right with only a few feet long wires each.

wood4sheep2

good point I have my old JBL center speaker that I will try tonight and see.

F1nut

It might be part of the problem. Curtains won't absord as well, if not at all...

I'm sure you meant blinds, not curtains.

The speaker wire is expensive 14 gauge speaker wire bought from Radio Shack.

Rat Shack doesn't sell expensive speaker cable.

F1nut

7. break in needed to warmup the speaker. (still working on that one)

I think you should let the speakers break in fully before doing anything else other than trying some heavy cloth over the blinds. Sheets aren't going to cut it.

pyrocyborg

F1nut wrote: »

I think you should let the speakers break in fully before doing anything else other than trying some heavy cloth over the blinds. Sheets aren't going to cut it.

Well, depends which kind of sheets.... :P Here in canada, some of our sheets are mostly what we could call blankets! :biggrin:

F1nut wrote: »

I'm sure you meant blinds, not curtains.



Rat Shack doesn't sell expensive speaker cable.

1. yeah, my bad, I couldn't edit. Thanks for clarifying.

2. true... I wouldn't call something under 1$ per feet expansive, but we all have our budget. Personnally, I wouldn't buy anything more than a 1$ per feet 12 AWG (probably except if I had 5000$ worth of gear, which I doubt I'll ever have), but I'm a rat.

Serendipity

Have you ever considered that it is the source? Yes, it's always recommended to make sure your system is setup properly, but sometimes live TV uses compression that may cause this issue. I would still recommend checking over all your settings, cables, and experimenting with proper speaker placement / room treatments to make sure you are set up properly. Proper setup makes a difference!

decal

^^^^ post #31 reported ^^^^