Arcam AVR360, Marantz 7005, Denon AVR-4311CI, Pioneer Elite SC-55

KayMan2

Hi everyone,

I recently picked up a pair of Polk RTi 12 floor-standing speakers, CSi5 center, surrounds, PSW125 sub, and PSW111 sub from Fry's. Since then, I have been scouring the forums online to find a good receiver to drive this system. However after a few days of reading, I got tired of conflicting / confusing reviews and decided to audition all receivers myself. This thread is intended to capture my journey and subjective review.

.

One disclaimer: I don't have any previous experience with medium-to-high-end audio, so make what you want of my opinion. I believe that I was not burdened by any brand's history from Analog days, and my opinion is based purely on what their Digital products sound like today.

.
Day one:

Today I made my way to Magnolia AV in Perimeter - Atlanta, and briefed the sales rep about speakers I picked up. I also mentioned that the main use is going to home-theater with occasional music playback. He suggested that we check out some receivers in the $1,500 to $2,500 range. We headed to the listening-room and narrowed down the choices to following 4 receivers:

• Arcam AVR360 - $1,800
• Marantz 7005 $1,500 (This was the rep's #1 recommendation)
• Denon AVR-4311CI $2,100
• Pioneer Elite SC-55 $1,700

.

For the first round, he selected a pair of Bowers and Wilkins bookshelf speakers (apparently fancy stores don't have Polk!). He was also quite methodical, selecting and setting the volume to exactly same levels, and selecting no-DSP processing listening modes.

.

We popped in a vocal-heavy audio CD and listened to it several times while switching between the four receivers. I didn't notice any major difference among three out of the four receivers, but the Pioneer SC55 clearly sounded inferior. It was a no-brainer to kick it out of the comparo.

.

For the second round, I suggested that we use one of the larger floor-standing speakers. B&W CM8 speakers are around $2,000 per pair and comparable to Polk RTi flagships. So we selected those, and popped in a a different instrumental audio track. Arcam had distinct separation between all instruments, and sounded a little better than the other two. Although it was a little bright in high-frequency for my taste. Denon and Marantz were too close to call.

So this time I decided to kick out the Denon because of brand image! I realize this is not a rational decision, but if you are spending $2K on a receiver it needs to have some brand-cachet. Denon sell receivers from $100 to $6000 range, but there is no separate brand for high-end. (Think Lexus/Toyota, Onkyo/Integra).

.

Now for the final round, I requested to pop in a blu-ray movie. Sales rep looked kind of surprised by this request, so I guess I unknowingly violated some unwritten tenets of high-end audio. But like a good salesman he picked up on my wavelength and returned with the "2012" blu-ray! He skipped to a scene about 40 minutes into the movie, when Los Angeles starts collapsing in apocalyptic sink-holes. I watched the scene with Marantz 7005, and it was loud. But it was just that: loud. There were no wow-inducing moments.

.

But as soon as we switched to Arcam AVR360, I went "WOW"! The crunch of the collapsing floor sounded much better than the Marantz. The clarity and detail was amazing. It just took me 30 seconds of listening to realize that AVR360 was my pick of the day!

.

I reigned in my impulse to buy the AVR360, and convinced myself to continue the research for one more day. Tomorrow I am going to Evolution Home Theater store in Buckhead - Atlanta, and will test Rotel and Anthem AV receivers.

.

If the forum gurus have any advice for me, please share it in this thread!

.
Thank you,

K

F1nut

Thanks for your nice write up.

I wouldn't recommend any AVR for serious music listening if that is your main goal. For HT only, try the SC-55 again.

kawizx9r

+1 to what F1 said.

Also, don't rely heavily on what you're hearing during an in-store demo. There are tons of things that factor in to 'how' something sounds.

We can go on about this but one more thing I'd like to emphasize on is just because the B&W's were comparable in price with your Polk RTi12's does not mean they will act the same. Some speakers are simply more efficient than others, and will sound differently when paired with a certain component as opposed to the same component of a different brand.

We appreciate the time you took to write your review, and hope you come to find the receiver you're looking for.

PS Have you ever thought of buying a used receiver, or at least a lesser expensive one (if new) and use it simply as a processor? From there, you can simply go with an external amplifier(s) to properly power your speakers.

F1nut

kawizx9r brought up an excellent point. B&W speakers have a very different house sound compared to Polk's. Personally, I can't stand the B&W sound, but that's probably not here or there, I just had to get that dig in.

KayMan2

Aha, good to see that I have some fellow speed-fans on the forum: F1 and ZX-9R! I appreciate your input on this.

Ideally I would love to audition all receivers with RTi12, but unfortunately had to pick the closest match on paper. I will try out more receiver / speaker combos tomorrow to get a better idea.

I am also trying to find a used receiver with DTS-HD MA and Dolby True-HD decoding abilities and analog pre-outs, but no reasonably-priced deals so far.

kawizx9r

Our Flea Market offers a wide variety of things, both audio and non-audio/video related.

We do have strict guidelines when it comes to selling though there shouldn't be a problem at all with buying. As long as things are dealt with in a respective manner rather than posting unnecessarily on a thread/low-balling/etc. you get the idea.

I don't know if I missed this or not, but aside from your speakers, what other components are you currently running?

What is your goal here? Strictly movies? 50/50 split with music/movies? The more information you provide us, the better of a suggestion we can make though the decision will be yours in the end of course.

kawizx9r

Off subject, it's been maybe 3 years since I last owned a bike unfortunately. I did have my fill though with my recently sold '93 RX7 FD3S (twin-turbo, never went single big turbo) and heads/cammed LS1 WS6.

pearsall001

Before I read thru your review & seeing the 4 AVR's mentioned I jumped to the conclusion that the Arcam would be your choice. Now granted this is with me not having heard any of them close up & personal. I'm strictly going by what I've been reading for quite some time now as I too am in the hunt for a new AVR/Prepro. I just keep reading over & over again about the sound quality of the Arcam line for both HT & 2 channel listening. The other's also get good reviews but pale in comparison with the Arcam feedback. Now I know better than to go strictly off of reviews so I'm going to have to get my ears on different lines myself. But for some reason the Arcam people just get it. If you have a chance read up on the Arcam AVR600...it's very pricey but...I'll let you decide. I await your upcoming reviews of the Rotel & Anthem units. It should be interesting.

obieone

1st, Welcome to the forum.
2nd, are you running 3 CSi5's, 1-cc, 2-surrounds?
3rd,(jmho) the Pioneer SC-55 can be had at Amazon for $1,089, and with a $600 savings, you could put that towards a stereo amplifier for the RTi12's.
4th, if you're going to continue shopping around, invest in a couple of blu-rays for reference material, 1 for music, the other for HT.

tonyb

The problem as I see it, is most big box stores don't have the receivers set up correctly for a proper demo and that can skew the results.

dcmartinpc

I would not be so quick to throw out the Denon 4311ci or the Pioneer SC-55!!! One of them would be my pick out of that lineup, unless I had a LOT more money to spend on the higher end Arcam units! I own a 4311ci, and for me, it is perfect. I understand the whole "brand" thing, but sound is more important to me than fluff and shiny lights! Plus, you can pick up a new 4311ci for less than $1300 from an authorized dealer if you hunt around. It has Audyssey XT32 with the option to go pro too. None of the other receivers have that. I use all Parasound external amplification with mine. If you are using the onboard amps, the Denons are not the strongest. For that, I would seriously look at the SC-55.

The SC-55 is an amazing receiver! The amps are best in class and the room correction is pretty good. I just don't see how the 7005 or Arcam even compare feature wise... The Arcam is nice, don't get me wrong, but I think the Denon and the Pioneer give you the best bang for your buck, IMHO.

Don

B Run

My setup is pure HT, and I love the Pioneer with my rti12's. I went to a high end store and had it narrowed down to a Denon 3311, Yamaha Rxa3000 and the SC-35. I thought the Denon sounded a little thin and bright, the Yamaha actually sounded better to me for music but couldn't compare for Ht, which is why I chose the Pioneer. Definitely decide what you're going to use it for, what features you want/need, and what sound you're overall sound you're trying to find is.

KayMan2

So I finally managed to listen to two more high-end setups yesterday at Evolution HT in Buckhead - Atlanta. They were undergoing re-wiring in their showroom, so did not have a lot of receivers to try out. They seem to focus mostly on separates and super-high-end equipment. But I did get to hear two products that I wanted to, so it was a good day!

First was Rotel RSX-1560 receiver connected to B&W CM9 speakers and Velodyne sub playing a vocals-heavy track. The Rotel receiver had a very wide sound stage, and the sound seemed like it was coming from a much wider area. Clarity was of course there - at expected from a product with $2,500 asking price. The vocals also sounded smooth and lyrical, more so than any of the previous receivers I listened to.

Next up I requested to pop in a movie source. The store owner again gave me a surprised look, but eventually dug up a DVD of 2005 animated movie "Robots" (I am guessing high-end stores don't really care for movie sound). We listened to an action scene where robots bump and bounce around the city in an animated extravaganza. The bass was clear and smooth, but it did not blow me away like the Arcam AVR-360 did two days ago. Now I realize that this was a lower quality DVD sound source, and not from a Blu-Ray so that may be culprit here. But overall, I was quite happy with the Rotel sound quality.


Just out of sheer curiosity, I asked to listen to the store's bestest, state-of-the-artest system. It was a huge rack of McIntosh equipment: There was a McIntosh source going into a tube-preamp, then to a surround processor, then to solid-state monoblock amplifiers. The amps were driving Bowers and Wilkins Nautilus speakers, and of course everything was power-conditioned. I am guessing this was at least a $30,000 setup.
Listening to the audio for a few minutes, I could feel it was a very smooth yet detailed rendition of the vocals. Even for my untrained ears, this system was very close to listening to a live performance. But overall, I think it comes down the law of diminishing returns. The $30K definitely sounded better than a $7K system I listened to previously. People who want every last bit of performance, and can afford it may go for this kind of setup, but I draw the line at a $5-7K system. If I had more money to spare, a far better option is to take my girl and go listen to live performance at the local opera / symphony hall. For $30K, I can go live performances every Saturday for next 20 years.


Some quick opinions I collected from store managers on other brands:
Harman Kardon AVR Receivers: They have the highest return rate at Fry's. Not due to sound quality, but overly complicated menus.
Anthem and Integra: Couldn't find a retailer who had these set up in store for listening. Evolution HT is dropping them from the product portfolio, and switching to Marantz for "low-end setups" as they put it :redface:.


To wrap up, I am considering Rotel RSX or Arcam AVR receivers to drive my system, with Arcam being the first preference. I am keeping an eye on the classifieds for a good deal on either one, but it seems difficult to find equipment that supports HDMI + DTS HD-MA + Dolby TrueHD. I will probably go listen to them next week again before making a final decision. As Obieone advised in the thread earlier, I will take along my own Blu-ray next time!!!



PS: A lot of people chimed in about Pioneer Elite SC series. The receiver sounded inferior to me rather clearly, so it may be a defective setup or something at the Magnolia store. Will try to check out a different store if possible.

Marty913

Thanks for the excellent write-up KayMan2. I've heard the Arcam and it's amazing. It wasn't out yet when I bought my NAD or I'd probably own one.

Maybe if more "high end boutique" audio-only stores carried a few movies they wouldn't be going out of business at the rate they are.

cnh

I have to agree with F1nut. B&W...yeah don't care for those. And they do tend to sound "bright" and even thin with a lot of very very good AVRs!

No doubt Arcam is a well-regarded brand. But I can't see those guys beating the manufacturers whose bread and butter is HT and really do have "cutting edge" tech in that area. It takes "higher level manufacturers" a while to actually catch up! Because they're really more about two channel sound.

cnh

F1nut

No doubt Arcam is a well-regarded brand. But I can't see those guys beating the manufacturers whose bread and butter is HT and really do have "cutting edge" tech in that area. It takes "higher level manufacturers" a while to actually catch up! Because they're really more about two channel sound.

You touched on an important point. Last year when I was looking for an AVR I was very interested in Arcam because of their sound quality, but two things stopped me from buying one. The first was the lack of features offered by most other AVR brands and the second was their glitch issues.

polkatese

Jesse, where would you put Arcam AQ in comparison to the name brands out there that you've listened to?

As much as I read unfavorable comments about MacIntosh, this video (despite of its massive limitation on the recording constraints being a youtube video) I am pretty impressed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZF4NgEW_mA

KayMan2

Ended up purchasing Arcam AVR 600 :cheesygrin:

I will update this thread with a follow-up after some listening to the new setup.

pearsall001

KayMan2 wrote: »

Ended up purchasing Arcam AVR 600 :cheesygrin:

I will update this thread with a follow-up after some listening to the new setup.

Nice pickup!!! If it lives up to 1/2 of it's rave reviews you are in for a real treat. Some guys actually sold off their more expensive separates after hearing the AVR600. A fantastic piece to be reckoned with. It's on my radar also.

Midnite Mick

I have wanted to hear a high-end Arcam avr for a long time now. Too many other priorities for the last little while though. Congrats and let us know what you think.

Regards,
Mike

polkfarmboy

Seems like the major advantage Arcam has is the music but I prefer music on 2 ch tubes. It sure is alot of money when you think about Anthem avm40/50's out there selling for as low as $1200 or Intergra 80.2's for $1300 ?

ibewbrother

The Pioneer has better video than the Arcam.. I got mine on a deal...and haven't heard it at all...but if you want big power...you have to have separates.

Lietuvis91

So how much did the Arcam avr 600 cost? Did you have to part with $5k?

brgman

Shame Pioneer doesnt make just a pre/pro edition of the 55.I am not a big HT person but want it nice due to more 5 channel sacd/dvd-a and concert bluray and dvd's.
I guess for the money the AV7005 is still a good choice eh?

mantis

I really love how Rotel and B&W go together. They sound damn perfect in the sense of accuracy and detail. You can really listen INSIDE the music deep and hear everything. They are so impressive.
In my years I have Installed many Rotel/B&W systems and loved it every time. I plan on picking up Either the CM9's or going for the 804's one day.
Listening in a store does not compare to a in home listen. Unless you had a showroom like ours that was caustically treated all 24 sound rooms , you just don't really get a good listen. You get an idea.

Congrads on the Acram , I've always liked them for sound quality and hated everything else about them. They look kinda cool though.