Bi-Wire...

Richd82
Richd82 Posts: 64
Myth or does it improve quality of sound? Im reading conflicting articles.
Post edited by Richd82 on
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Comments

  • ken brydson
    ken brydson Posts: 8,774
    edited February 2012
    Richd82 wrote: »
    Myth or does it improve quality of sound? Im reading conflicting articles.

    Waste of wire IMO. Replace the stock jumper with quality speaker wire and call it a day....
  • decal
    decal Posts: 3,205
    edited February 2012
    This is one of those things you just have to try for yourself.
    If you can't hear a difference, don't waste your money.
  • rebuy
    rebuy Posts: 695
    edited February 2012
    I see it as already bi-wired.
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,983
    edited February 2012
    Richd82 wrote: »
    Im reading conflicting articles.

    My friend, this whole hobby of audio is a conflicting article one after another. The answer, try it for yourself and see.

    With that said, from my experiences, bi-wire isn't going to give you any significant improvement untill you reach very detailed speakers of higher quality.....and even then, it's iffy. Lots depends on the speakers themselves, the wire used, and the gear involved. The differences can be hard to hear if your not in tune to it or have a discerning ear.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

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  • niente
    niente Posts: 68
    edited February 2012
    Bi Wire comments from "The Audio Critic"--interesting commentary on audio--google it

    7. The Biwiring Lie
    Even fairly sophisticated audiophiles
    fall for this hocus-pocus. What’s more,
    loudspeaker manufacturers participate
    in the sham when they tell you that
    those two pairs of terminals on the
    back of the speaker are for biwiring as
    well as biamping. Some of the most
    highly respected names in loudspeakers
    are guilty of this hypocritical genuflection
    to the tweako sacraments—
    they are in effect surrendering to the
    “realities” of the market.
    The truth is that biamping makes
    sense in certain cases, even with a passive
    crossover, but biwiring is pure voodoo.
    If you move one pair of speaker wires to
    the same terminals where the other pair
    is connected, absolutely nothing changes
    electrically. The law of physics that says
    so is called the superposition principle.
    In terms of electronics, the superposition
    theorem states that any number of voltages
    applied simultaneously to a linear
    network will result in a current which is
    the exact sum of the currents that would
    result if the voltages were applied individually.
    The audio salesman or ’phile
    who can prove the contrary will be an
    instant candidate for some truly major
    scientific prizes and academic honors. At
    ISSUE NO. 26 • FALL 2000 7
    the same time it is only fair to point out
    that biwiring does no harm. It just
    doesn’t do anything. Like magnets in
    your shoes.
    Onkyo TX-SR804 receiver
    Parasound 5250
    LSI 15's
    LSI C
    LSI FX's
    PSW1000 Sub
    OPPO 93
    Sony CDP-C315 CD
    Monster AC line cond
    Audioquest, Blue Jeans & Monster wires/connects
    40" Sony Bravia XBR6
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,983
    edited February 2012
    Pretty much meaningless as you can also use Google to find articles that contradict that one. Which as we said, best to try yourself.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
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    lsi 9's
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,663
    edited February 2012
    niente wrote: »
    Bi Wire comments from "The Audio Critic"--interesting commentary on audio--google it

    How about relating your own personal experience instead......geesh! :rolleyes:
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,983
    edited February 2012
    I know Jess.....experience speaks for it's self. But....we can play the broken record routine all day, still won't matter.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,663
    edited February 2012
    Tony I hear ya, but I still like to think that maybe, just maybe, someone will get the message.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • Richd82
    Richd82 Posts: 64
    edited February 2012
    Enough on this topic, my money will stay in my wallet as i cant find any hard evidence to convince me otherwise. Was just curious to hear some of your opinions before i go and throw some money down on better quality cables and double pay for the same result.
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,983
    edited February 2012
    Well, you did say bi wire, you said nothing about upgrading the single run cables, thats a whole nutha ball game.

    This whole audio thing is about experience, trying different things to see what floats your boat. If your happy with monoprice cables, and everything sounds good to you, cool, rock on. There are better ones out there if you ever want to move up the ladder. But, I guess you'll never know that unless you dabble in it.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • jbooker82
    jbooker82 Posts: 1,627
    edited February 2012
    I got a pair of AudioQuest Type 8's single biwire. They have one set of bananas on one end and two sets on the other. They didnt cost any more than a regular set of speaker wire so I figured why not. It eliminated the jumpers, and lookes cleaner than a short jumper wire going from post to post.
    AVR: Onkyo Tx-NR808
    Amplifier: Carver A-753x 250 watts x 3
    Fronts: Polk RTI A7 (modded by Trey VR3)
    Center: CSI A4 (modded by Trey VR3)
    Rear: FXI A4
    Sub: Polk DSW Pro 660wi
    TV: LG Infinia 50PX950 3D
    Speaker Cable: AudioQuest Type 8
    IC: AudioQuest Black Mamba II
  • niente
    niente Posts: 68
    edited February 2012
    Sorry if I offended anyone..

    copy / paste of an electrical fact was just easier than typing

    To comment on my experience with Bi Wire, I can only say the results achieved were only to double my cost of wire.

    Couldn't hear any differnce, which I believed I would!

    Which in turn resulted in further reading - and the quick post of FACT
    Onkyo TX-SR804 receiver
    Parasound 5250
    LSI 15's
    LSI C
    LSI FX's
    PSW1000 Sub
    OPPO 93
    Sony CDP-C315 CD
    Monster AC line cond
    Audioquest, Blue Jeans & Monster wires/connects
    40" Sony Bravia XBR6
  • CoolJazz
    CoolJazz Posts: 570
    edited February 2012
    Well Niente, the FACT from that Bozo is completely flawed and incorrect!

    Electrically, it is solid science that moving the drive point back to the lowest impedance point is a different situation than having the common point at the crossover input. How much difference it is will depend on the output stage style, the wire, the drivers, the crossover point...well...everything!

    So it is perfectly likely that in any given situation that you may not have had a situation that reached the level of being an audible difference, but it is totally incorrect to accept what was written to try and get attention and be controversial. Just because it's been written or posted on the web, does not make it correct.

    CJ
    A so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements."

    More amazing Internet Science Pink Panther wisdom..."My DAC has since been upgraded from Mark Levinson to Topping."
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,983
    edited February 2012
    niente wrote: »
    Sorry if I offended anyone..

    copy / paste of an electrical fact was just easier than typing

    To comment on my experience with Bi Wire, I can only say the results achieved were only to double my cost of wire.

    Couldn't hear any differnce, which I believed I would!

    Which in turn resulted in further reading - and the quick post of FACT


    What you fail to mention is, what you used to bi-wire with.
    Here's what usually happens, and I'm not saying that this is your case.
    Someone has a pair of monoprice cables, lets say their interconnects. Then they buy a cable from Bluejeans at maybe 20 bucks more a pair. They don't hear a difference, thus the conclusion is cables don't matter and it's all hype.

    Cables offer smaller improvements in sound, the better your gear, the more it becomes audible. There's more to audio than internet articles that lay claim to the high ground. Hopefully someday you'll understand that and decide to just try different things for yourself. In the end, you may still be in the same camp, and thats cool too. We all don't have to agree on everything in this hobby.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,663
    edited February 2012
    They are labeled.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • Richd82
    Richd82 Posts: 64
    edited February 2012
    tonyb wrote: »
    Well, you did say bi wire, you said nothing about upgrading the single run cables, thats a whole nutha ball game.

    This whole audio thing is about experience, trying different things to see what floats your boat. If your happy with monoprice cables, and everything sounds good to you, cool, rock on. There are better ones out there if you ever want to move up the ladder. But, I guess you'll never know that unless you dabble in it.

    No, sorry if i didnt explain myself clearly. What i meant was i am going to buy better cables, but the Bi-wire cables are abit more pricey than the single run cables. That was the point i intended. I think ill spend the Xtra money on a better single run cable and go from there.

    The system is only a week old so i dont wanna jump the gun and dive head first into a pair of $600 wires to maybe or maybe not hear a difference. I still have the whole break in period to get through and i wanna have spent enough time with my system to know exactly how it sounds so when i drop some coin on high quality cables ill have enough time spent listening to this setup to notice the little differences.

    I do have a discerning ear and have spent alot of time with car audio. But this HT is a whole other beast.

    You think this is a good cable to start with http://signalcable.com/silverresolutionspeaker.html
  • rebuy
    rebuy Posts: 695
    edited February 2012
    I really do not understand why you would need any special cables to bi-wire. By set up and design built into the standard Polk speaker today. you have no choice but to bi-wire, either by the brass plates supplied, or by jumper wires, or by a special cable, which, IMHO does nothing.

    So anyone who uses Polk Speakers the way they are designed is bi-wiring.
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,983
    edited February 2012
    Yes Rich, Signal cable makes a decent solid product and would be a good place to start. Don't forget if you go that route, mention your a member here.

    Rebuy- What in the world are you talking about bro ?
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited February 2012
    Ditto... single-run plus jumper does not equal bi-wire.
    niente wrote: »
    Sorry if I offended anyone...
    Not too worry... some members post truly offensive things and never apologize.
    CoolJazz wrote: »
    Well Niente, the FACT from that Bozo is completely flawed and incorrect!

    Electrically, it is solid science that moving the drive point back to the lowest impedance point is a different situation than having the common point at the crossover input. How much difference it is will depend on the output stage style, the wire, the drivers, the crossover point...well...everything!
    Reads like you are citing cases where the wire is sufficiently undersized as to become a factor into the output resistance... Yes?
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner

    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
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  • byfthalone
    byfthalone Posts: 345
    edited February 2012
    as Yoda once said, " conundrum it is, sound to your ears must try"
  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    edited February 2012
    You lie, spammer!
    Reported user Muhleddrealse, post #24.
  • SolidSqual
    SolidSqual Posts: 5,218
    edited February 2012
    I don't even use wire anymore between my components or speakers. After all the bad commentary, I'm convinced my system sounds better without any interconnects or speaker cables at all.
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,983
    edited February 2012
    Ha ha... yep, no sound is the purest sound of all.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • rebuy
    rebuy Posts: 695
    edited February 2012
    I must not understand what bi-wiring is, someone care to explain it?

    I would also like to know how to play a Polk speaker without bi-wiring it.
  • CoolJazz
    CoolJazz Posts: 570
    edited February 2012
    Tour2ma wrote: »
    Reads like you are citing cases where the wire is sufficiently undersized as to become a factor into the output resistance... Yes?

    With small guage wire, then bi-wiring does have greater likelyhood of impacting the result, yes. But I wasn't necessarily referring to that. So it should be recognized that not everybody is in favor of bigger wire = better sound. The magnitude of change would be larger when bi-wiring with small guage than if you're doubling up on an already big-**** guage.

    You mention output resistance. Keep in mind that resistance is DC and we're working here with audio which is AC. This is kind of a muddled point maybe, but truly we need to keep in mind we're working with impedance rather than just simple resistance. ie....impedance is recognizing the load varies with the frequency, while DC and resistance is only one frequency. Zero hz!

    CJ
    A so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements."

    More amazing Internet Science Pink Panther wisdom..."My DAC has since been upgraded from Mark Levinson to Topping."
  • rebuy
    rebuy Posts: 695
    edited February 2012
    I want to know why running wire to a Polk speaker and then jumping to another terminal from the binding post is not bi-wiring.

    Can someone explain this please?
  • CoolJazz
    CoolJazz Posts: 570
    edited February 2012
    rebuy wrote: »
    I want to know why running wire to a Polk speaker and then jumping to another terminal from the binding post is not bi-wiring.

    Can someone explain this please?
    It's not the same thing. That's why.

    I have a highway close to me. You probably have a highway close to you too. Are we at the same place then?

    The attachment point at the back of the amp is at a lower impedance point that it can be at the other end of the wire. Not much different...but also not the same. So putting a jumper at the speaker end is electrically a small difference than running two wires from the amp output to the speaker seperately.

    Do you consider a receptacle installed right at the houses breaker panel to be exactly the same as the power would be after being routed to the other end of the house and passing through a few connection points along the way...and then being loaded by a few electrical devices at the far end?

    CJ
    A so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements."

    More amazing Internet Science Pink Panther wisdom..."My DAC has since been upgraded from Mark Levinson to Topping."
  • rebuy
    rebuy Posts: 695
    edited February 2012
    It is the same audio signal, period. If you hook up to the bass post, then you only get bass. To get treble, you have to either run the plates, make jumpers, or run a separate wire to the treble. How does running a second set of wires to another binding post differ in sound when it is the same signal?

    Now I think we are really getting into a little snake oil.
  • CoolJazz
    CoolJazz Posts: 570
    edited February 2012
    rebuy wrote: »
    It is the same audio signal, period. If you hook up to the bass post, then you only get bass. To get treble, you have to either run the plates, make jumpers, or run a separate wire to the treble. How does running a second set of wires to another binding post differ in sound when it is the same signal?

    Now I think we are really getting into a little snake oil.

    You have to consider the loading to understand. If you could ever deliver a perfect voltage source to the speaker terminal then it would make no difference. But no amplifier is a perfect voltage source, plus we add in the wire which takes it further yet from being a perfect source.

    Note...understanding the physical difference is what I'm trying to explain. What it does or does not do in a specific installation is another issue! Depending on the amplifier, the additional impedance of the wire under load and the load itself (the speaker system), it may have some change or no change at all. Wire is wire...until you consider the load you place across it!

    The basis of bi-wiring is that the high pass section doesn't have to see change the low side and it's power hungry design is going to impress across the far end of the wire. How much it's modulated is again dependant on the entire circuit as listed above. And it also is dependant on someone listing in such a way as to hear those effects if there are any in the situation.

    It's solid science is what I'm trying to get across. Snake oil is generally used as meaning fraud upon the unknowing or deceived. This, after being explained the solid electrical fundemental behind bi-wiring, cannot be part of that snarky and really unuseful term.

    CJ
    A so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements."

    More amazing Internet Science Pink Panther wisdom..."My DAC has since been upgraded from Mark Levinson to Topping."