The Weaker Link is? Speaker or Receiver...

ruckus1027

I'm very new here and to audio stuff for that matter. So if this is in the wrong section and/or it's a very newbie question, pardon me in advance. (I did take some time browsing through the archives but could not find a satisfying answer)


Okay so a little bit of background on my set up:

Yamaha HTR 5930; it's an HTIB model, mainly used for music, movies and Battlefield 3.
Mains: SDS 400 (basically a Monitor 4)
Center: CSi20
Surrounds: MiniMonitor II

So, here is the start of my predicament. I was at an electronic store the other day and got to listen to some audio stuff (decided to take everyone's advice and try out set ups). Anyway, I got a chance to listen to a pair of TSi100 ran with some $400 Denon (I think, I'm a newb and did not take note on the set up). The speakers were ear level and I'm 5'7". The speakers were right next to each other and I aimed them in toward me a little bit. I played my iPod via 3.5mm jack that was connected through a stereo connection in the back.

I basically heard something amazing; I can't really explain it. It was like the sound was this...mass of orb around my head area. I'm not really sure if that even comes close to what I was hearing. Kind of like I was in a tiny acoustic room/space-time-continuum :cheesygrin:.

Anyway, I tried to replicate this with my setup. I tried repositioning my Mains right next to each other and stood right in front of them. I tried 5ch and 2ch settings, but could not come close to what I was hearing. Maybe 30-40% of the listening pleasure to what I heard. My set up is GREAT for PS3 gaming, movies IMO is above par, but after hearing the set up at the store, I feel that music sounds lacking. I'm sure if I can improve something it should boost the overall audio performance for all three uses.

Basically, I would like to know if this is a speaker thing, where the newer speakers are just that much better than what I got. Or, is it my receiver? Maybe a combination of both? I'm not looking to replicate what I heard but want to get kind of close. My budget will not permit me to. I'm hoping it's my receiver because I see some Denon and Onkyo receivers, localy, that are a couple years old that are under $200 (closer to $150 lol) and I'm comfortable spending that much.

Please any input to guide me in the right direction would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Sorry if this is lengthy

ruckus1027

Just to add, I guess I'm looking for best bang for the buck upgrade. I don't need anything more than $200, so I guess I'm left with used items. Will upgrading my receiver to something 2009ish and a better brand improve my set up more than investing into newer speakers? Or the other way around.

chumlie

Not gonna get alot of reciever for price range your looking at. The one you have will drive the tsi100's. i would get the speakers.

ruckus1027

Will a more updated receiver not improve my audio quality?

I was looking at these:

-http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/ele/2799697211.html

or the denon avr3802

-http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/ele/2794482010.html

chumlie

Sure it will. Denon looks like a decent reciever. Start there, then work on getting better speakers.

F1nut

The issue I see here is that the speakers you heard at the store were not set up properly AND they were not in your room. Therefore, the "mass of orb" you heard was more a result of the room, not the gear. I suggest going back and have them properly set up the speakers. If they refuse, go elsewhere.

ruckus1027

Chumlie, thanks for the input. Will it be a considerable increase in quality, you think?

F1nut, the mass of orb I was talking about was not a bad thing. It was a good thing. To me it sounded awesome.

F1nut

ruckus1027 wrote: »

F1nut, the mass of orb I was talking about was not a bad thing. It was a good thing. To me it sounded awesome.

I'm quite aware that you considered it a good thing. What you do not seem to be aware of is that it was the result of the room acoustics, not the speakers or AVR. As I previously stated, go back and listen to them properly set up before you foolishly chase your tail.

obieone

Audio is like real estate: Location, location, location.

ruckus1027

F1nut wrote: »

I'm quite aware that you considered it a good thing. What you do not seem to be aware of is that it was the result of the room acoustics, not the speakers or AVR. As I previously stated, go back and listen to them properly set up before you foolishly chase your tail.

Yeah, I see what you mean. At the store I was in a very open area, whereas my room is enclosed. I'm guessing that has a lot to do with it.

As for better speakers, I listened to my whole set up earlier and really listen to them. I realized I'm pretty satisfied with them. After assessing my want/desire for higher end stuff and rationalizing spending more money, I feel I'm okay the way it is.

I guess if anything, I might upgrade my receiver to one with more channels. I feel that with a better receiver, like the Denon above, I might be able to squeeze a bit more performance and detail from my speakers. <---What do you guys think?

Phasewolf

What size room do you have. How are the speakers setup, are the main speakers close too the back wall and how close are they too the side walls. This can all effect how they may sound. Getting that done correctly will make them sing.

F1nut

Right and not only that, but the speakers were not set up properly, so you really don't know what their capable of. You can get all kinds of neat-o results from setting up speakers in unconventional ways. For example, instead of toeing in your speakers, try toeing them out. The result is kind of cool, but far from ideal.

Again, I suggest going back out and listening to properly set up rigs to get an idea of where you might want to go. Enjoy the journey, but go about it the right way.

ruckus1027

The room is a 10x12. The mains are about a foot away from the back wall. However, the right front channel is about 4in away from the side wall. The mains and surrounds are toed in towards the acoustic center.

ruckus1027

F1nut, I'll definitely go around and listen some more, and this time I'll take time in really listening and taking notes.

Smallies, yeah, I've been on Craigslist like a fiend lol.

steveinaz

Your close placement to sidewalls is likely killing your soundstage, that's why the other speakers sounded so "mystical" out in the room a good ways. Is there any way you can re-arrange a bit, and get your mains away from the sidewalls some?

ruckus1027

steveinaz wrote: »

Your close placement to sidewalls is likely killing your soundstage, that's why the other speakers sounded so "mystical" out in the room a good ways. Is there any way you can re-arrange a bit, and get your mains away from the sidewalls some?

Quite possibly, however I tried moving the mains around to replicate what I heard. I had the two mains right next to each other, a foot away from the back wall and at least 3ft away from each side walls. I got somewhat closer to "mystical" (good way of putting it by the way), but not close enough. Anyway, I probably need to re-arrange, will do so in the future. My living arrangement right now is temporary. It should be squared away and be better arranged in a month or so. I'll see how it goes then.

George Grand

I'm not sure your main speakers are reproducing the entire "Main" signal. Those SDS400 were designed to extract a surround "ambience" signal from the input they were fed. You may not be getting the "Big Picture" over there.

pyrocyborg

I would say that you should get better speakers at the moment, because most sound differences can come from speakers. However, I wouldn't buy a pair of 2000$ speakers and pair it with a 200$ receiver, it wouldn't make sense, because they wouldn't sound at their best.

Also, I do not know why they insist on placing speakers next to each other... it kills every bit of soundstage you could get! For some speakers, it even make them sound congested if you're not in the dead center. Definetly not a good idea...

I had a similar Yamaha receiver. It was really great for both PS3 gaming and movies, but it could sound harsh or congested on most music. Sure, it didn't help it to pair some RTi bookshelf, which are kinda bright in nature, but the Yamaha isn't a great musical receiver. However, my first bet would be to replace those speakers with something better. Sure, I would recommand anything better than a 200$ pair of bookshelf, but if you gotta tie to your budget, I would say, go try a pair of TSi200. Sure, it'll cost more, but you'll only try them. If you like their sound, return them... and buy a pair of Monitor 40 from Polk Direct : http://www.ebay.com/itm/PAIR-Monitor-40-Cherry-Bookshelf-Speakers-Polk-Audio-/360428462661?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item53eb35e245 at 120 bucks. They are the same speakers, less stilish, but with the same sound.

- Do you have any stands? You need them to make bookshelf speakers sound their best. IMO, they are a must. If you go for the Monitor 40 route, try to find some stands to have the tweeter at ear level.

- And... do you listen to music from your PS3? Is it connected to your Yamaha by toslink/HDMI?

ruckus1027

George, from what I read, the SDS can be mains. They have a bypass option in the rear to bypass the surround options.


Pyro, thanks for the input. I agree with you, it is musically where the Yamaha is lacking. It does not have hdmi, so I am connected through optical. They are all on top of something, not necessarily a stand lol. However, I think after really listening to them, I am content with my set up. I did realize that at louder volume levels, the set up is pretty awesome. I am usually between -42db to -35db to try and respect the other people in the house. I turned it up a notch, higher than -30db and they sound much better. I'm guessing these SDS take a bit more to get going. I might sell the Yamaha HTIB and but the Denon receiver from above, if I play my cards right I should come out without spending any money. That Denon has HDMI and 7.1 and should sound quite a bit better than my Yamaha.

George Grand

I thought that might be the case with a bypass switch. I had an opportunity to buy a brand new pair of those for $50 around 1990, from a husband & wife owned hi-fi shop near Pease AFB in NH that was closing due to divorce. I bought a small Parasound passive sub instead, same $50.

ruckus1027

Okay, so, I got a small pair of bookshelf speakers. I don't know what brand they are; there are no markings on them. They seem to be late 70s-mid 80s. I tried them out in the garage with my Yamaha receiver, and I got to replicate the mystical sound!:razz:

I did not change any settings on my receiver and the speakers are very old, so if they can reproduce the sound, I'm sure my SDS could too. The only difference is that the garage is much much bigger than my room and the speakers were out in the open. So, I guess we've solved the problem. F1nut was right.

ruckus1027

George,

I see. They're pretty nice set of speakers. Definitely good enough for what I am using them for.

F1nut

It's nice to be right once in a while.....:cool: Thanks!

ruckus1027

Well, is there a way to delete threads or do the moderators do that?


I think this thread can be deleted now.

F1nut

There's no reason to delete this thread. It may help someone else down the road.

pyrocyborg

You're right again F1...

ruckus1027

Just an update, I came across an Onkyo TX-NR509 for $150 in near brand new condition (used a month). I felt that this was a really good deal as they are much much more brand new.

I know a lot suggested newer speakers, but I couldn't pass it up. What do you guys think? Was it a good pick up? I feel like I will be pretty satisfied with the receiver for a few years.

cfrizz

You would have been better off getting the Denon 3802. I had this receiver and it has preouts for future upgrades in power, something that Onkyo doesn't have.

Tankman

F1nut wrote: »

There's no reason to delete this thread. It may help someone else down the road.

Dude you are right more often then not.You,cfrizz,Lasareath.Tonyb,h9 why most of us newbee's come in here.I agree don't delete the thread it is one of the better thread in here with lots of great advice.

ruckus1027

Cfrizz, I agree that denon would have been a better option to some, but to me the Onkyo has features that put it ahead on my list. The denon doesn't have hdmi nor is it able to decode the newer hd audio formats. As for upgrades regarding preout, I am almost positive I won't be needing preouts in the next 5-7 years. The guy I bought the Onky from had them set up to tower speakers and he cranked it up; I will never be listening to anything as loud as he put them. But, I guess my point was to refute the idea that I cannot get a decent receiver for the 150ish budget I have.

ruckus1027

Just to clarify, the reason I asked is because, most forums I've been a part of liked to save server data and clutter. They encouraged people to delete threads. That's all