Mini Review LSi9 vs RTi 12/A9
Comments
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I admire OP's courage to post an honest opinion in unfriendly environment. Not everyone has to be a cheerleader. And you all went out of your way to attack him. I don't know nothing, but WHAT A CRAPPY SPEAKER if the only way to enjoy it is 10 degree toe in, 10 inches lower, and what the hell does filling a stand with sand has to do with anything?
He said that under those conditions they sound like that, and that's still helpful. You don't have to jump on him like a pack of hungry lioins on a three legged zebraI have found that tube based computers provide the best sound quality. ENIAC and MANIAC I offer a smooth, well defined and articulated sound unmatched by the current silicon based CPUs.
jeremymarcinko wrote: »But as in all things your perception is your reality. -
I admire OP's courage to post an honest opinion in unfriendly environment. Not everyone has to be a cheerleader. And you all went out of your way to attack him. I don't know nothing, but WHAT A CRAPPY SPEAKER if the only way to enjoy it is 10 degree toe in, 10 inches lower, and what the hell does filling a stand with sand has to do with anything?
He said that under those conditions they sound like that, and that's still helpful. You don't have to jump on him like a pack of hungry lioins on a three legged zebra
It takes more courage to review something properly set up as it should be, otherwise don't bother. Maybe next we can get a review of a HD TV with no HD signal going to it.
If you have to ask what filling a stand with sand does, then best you get your read on and start putting the pieces of the puzzle together.
I will give the OP credit though at being honest in his description of how he set them up. All we are saying is that had alot to do with what he heard.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
I admire OP's courage to post an honest opinion in unfriendly environment. Not everyone has to be a cheerleader. And you all went out of your way to attack him. I don't know nothing, but WHAT A CRAPPY SPEAKER if the only way to enjoy it is 10 degree toe in, 10 inches lower, and what the hell does filling a stand with sand has to do with anything?
He said that under those conditions they sound like that, and that's still helpful. You don't have to jump on him like a pack of hungry lioins on a three legged zebra
People are "attacking" him because he is shooting down a fantastic speaker because he can't/won't set it properly. He has a VERY poor setup, and will not even let them break in.
Don't come in here and bash a great speaker when he is not even giving them a chance in hell to sing. It's not just with Polk, if he did the same with others, he would have received the same treatment. -
At least the OP has given his opinion with first hand 'ears on' experience.
If the OP has the ability to change his setup to give the LSis a better chance at a better experience, then that should be factored into any overall opinion - for the OP.
If room constraints are such that room configuration, treatments, placement, are fixed (for whatever reason), then...for the OP....his opinion stands...for him - its his rig and his ears.
I lived with LSi7s for a bit - and in MY room and MY rig and MY preferences - they didn't do it for me - even for music.
Opinions vary - ain't that cool?
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
I don't think anyone would have a problem with him not liking the 9's if he sets them up properly and gives them a chance. If he does that and still doesn't like them then so be it. I don't feel he's being "attacked" for not liking them, only for saying so after a couple of hours listening to them set up very poorly.Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden
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I think some of you read my post wrong. My pt is not about how suck the lsi9 is (it fails to impress me), but about how not-high-end sound it's producing when compare to a well broken in Rti12. Remember that the setup is identical in every ways. this just shows me how musical the Rti12 is with proper power.
About the stand, I am using the Rti12 as a stand here. Don't you agree that it's a very solid stand?
If the tweeter is a few inches above ear level and that makes the speaker sound bad, don't we have a bigger issue with the speaker itself here?
To answer the question why did I buy it in the first place, because I keep hearing that it uses the same tweeter in other speakers that cost $10k and "very smooth and musical". As much as I like the Rti12, I wanted something more musical. Plus the deal is crazy good.
Maybe I am disappointed because I expected different, high end sound. The result I am getting is not much better than the well broken in Rti12. So yes, it still sounds like Polk. or like I asked before, maybe it's not broken in yet. I am just saying that as of now. If knowing the result ahead, I wouldn't buy it.
I am not hating Polk at all. As you can see, my current setup is all Polk. -
Yes, it will make a difference set that high up ontop of the 12's, and no, it's not a speaker issue. Did you dial them in with the subwoofer ? Recalibrate ? Take the amp out of bridged mode ?
The more detailed a speaker is, the more minor changes make a difference. I think what your experiencing, is that the 12's have a fuller sound being towers with many drivers. In a big room, yeah, those 12's can fill it easy, a bookie like the 9's won't do as well in a big room as the 12's would. More attention to detail is needed for better quality speakers, you have to be willing to give it a go to make a proper decision. If after that, the 9's are not your huckleberry, then fine, nobody would have an issue with this. One speaker is not a one size fits all type of thing, everyone has preferences.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
I think some of you read my post wrong. My pt is not about how suck the lsi9 is (it fails to impress me), but about how not-high-end sound it's producing when compare to a well broken in Rti12. Remember that the setup is identical in every ways. this just shows me how musical the Rti12 is with proper power.
About the stand, I am using the Rti12 as a stand here. Don't you agree that it's a very solid stand?
Wrong. The RTi 12's and A9's have similar layout and components, but the cabinet design and technology into the redesign has shifted and slightly altered the sound.
As far as the speaker being a stand, no. It's NOT solid enough. When you knock on the side of the cabinet, does it make a noise? Pretty audible somewhat right? Now go knock on a stand filled with sand or lead shot. What's that? You can;t hear anything cause it's SOLID.
Apples to oranges really... -
I think some of you read my post wrong. My pt is not about how suck the lsi9 is (it fails to impress me), but about how not-high-end sound it's producing when compare to a well broken in Rti12. Remember that the setup is identical in every ways. this just shows me how musical the Rti12 is with proper power.
About the stand, I am using the Rti12 as a stand here. Don't you agree that it's a very solid stand?
If the tweeter is a few inches above ear level and that makes the speaker sound bad, don't we have a bigger issue with the speaker itself here?
To answer the question why did I buy it in the first place, because I keep hearing that it uses the same tweeter in other speakers that cost $10k and "very smooth and musical". As much as I like the Rti12, I wanted something more musical. Plus the deal is crazy good.
Maybe I am disappointed because I expected different, high end sound. The result I am getting is not much better than the well broken in Rti12. So yes, it still sounds like Polk. or like I asked before, maybe it's not broken in yet. I am just saying that as of now. If knowing the result ahead, I wouldn't buy it.
I am not hating Polk at all. As you can see, my current setup is all Polk.
The problem is that you still have not taken the time to set them up, break them in, and then make a judgment.
I've listen to the LSI's and had A9's they are different. and no placing the speaker on top of the tower is not the same as a good stand.
Your amp should not be bridged, due to the amp seeing a 2 ohm load, the speakers are now higher than where the tweeter should probably be and not helping, and you made a very quick decision on this.
So you have a lot of problems to fix, and then make a judgment. a day or two isn't going to be enough time. -
While I was doing some research on a pair of speakers I just bought, I came across a great article that details the following statement about speaker break-in. I'll attach the exert here:Don’t believe that speakers break in or loosen up? If you audition enough spanking new speakers you’ll encounter this phenomenon again and again. I didn’t listen to the Aelite Ones at all for about eighteen hours from the time I set them up to run in, so I didn’t ‘get used to the sound’ as they were completely different after that period. Speakers are mechanical devices and their components will bed in and free up from an as-new state.
If you can’t just crank up your new speakers and walk away without annoying the family or neighbours, try this technique:
Wire one of the speakers out of phase and position them with the drivers facing each other and almost touching. The drivers will be out of phase with each other and will cancel each other out to a degree. Drape a thick blanket over the top and the volume levels will drop even further. You can turn them up quite loud like this and disturb not a soul.
Source: http://www.tone.co.nz/reviews/acoustic-energy-aelite-one-stand-mount-speakers-review-70
Try the above. Then come back. -
I don't think the "stand quality" is a big factor here, however, the height certainly is. Your tweeter is more than "a few inches above ear level" with your setup the way it is. The RTi12's are 50" high; that would put the tweeter at 57.5" high based on the measurements from my LSi9's. Now, I sit in a fairly high office chair, and my tweeters are at 43.5" and they are right at ear level. So, unless you are sitting in a bar stool, there is no way your tweeters are even close to ear level. If you are sitting in a higher office-type chair, they are "only" about 14" above ear level; however, if you are sitting in a typical couch or chair, the would be about 20-24" above ear level. You need to get them closer to ear height before I can being to take your review seriously.About the stand, I am using the Rti12 as a stand here. Don't you agree that it's a very solid stand?
If the tweeter is a few inches above ear level and that makes the speaker sound bad, don't we have a bigger issue with the speaker itself here?
Also, as others have said, you need to take your amp out of bridged mode with the the LSi9's. Not only are you risking damage to your amplifier, but it will sound poor since it is running out of spec. You should not be running 4 ohm speakers in bridge mode; the amp is seeing a 2 ohm load, and that too low. -
As I mentioned, I tried both in bridged and normal mode.
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Great, leave it in unbridged mode. But you still have to address the significant height discrepancy.As I mentioned, I tried both in bridged and normal mode. -
Well I am not always sitting while listening. Sometimes I walk around the room and work on stuff. I am funny in that way. Are you suggesting it is useless for me to spend big $$ on quality speakers because they are incapable of higher quality sound unless absolutely at ear level?
Don't get me wrong, I don't quite believe the reviewer myself, I would buy those speakers in a heartbeat if I see a good deal. But I think it's more likely a matter of personal perception. If you accept that his judgement is good, but it is due to the few inches difference, in all honesty, YOU are the one who is insulting the speaker. I mean what a crappy product would that be, to cost all that paper dollars and has it's performance entirely dependent on a few inches. I mean nobody would buy that speaker if that were a fact. You can't always sit when listening to music. Its the whole concept of wide stage. All this critique is entirely logically absurd, and on top of that it is mixed with notes of hostility and intolerance to deviation of opinion.I have found that tube based computers provide the best sound quality. ENIAC and MANIAC I offer a smooth, well defined and articulated sound unmatched by the current silicon based CPUs.jeremymarcinko wrote: »But as in all things your perception is your reality. -
I admire OP's courage to post an honest opinion in unfriendly environment. Not everyone has to be a cheerleader. And you all went out of your way to attack him. I don't know nothing, but WHAT A CRAPPY SPEAKER if the only way to enjoy it is 10 degree toe in, 10 inches lower, and what the hell does filling a stand with sand has to do with anything?
He said that under those conditions they sound like that, and that's still helpful. You don't have to jump on him like a pack of hungry lioins on a three legged zebra
Key words in bold.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Again, it is more than "a few inches" difference as pointed out in post number 45. However, it is wonderful that you are able to completely ignore that fact as well as the OP is able to. In addition, this is an issue with any speaker and the tweeter. They will sound different the farther you get from ear height. When you have as significant of a height difference as the OP has with his setup, it will make a difference on any speaker. If he sets up the LSi's to be at the proper height like his RTi's are and still doesn't like them, then I will respect that opinion.Well I am not always sitting while listening. Sometimes I walk around the room and work on stuff. I am funny in that way. Are you suggesting it is useless for me to spend big $$ on quality speakers because they are incapable of higher quality sound unless absolutely at ear level?
Don't get me wrong, I don't quite believe the reviewer myself, I would buy those speakers in a heartbeat if I see a good deal. But I think it's more likely a matter of personal perception. If you accept that his judgement is good, but it is due to the few inches difference, in all honesty, YOU are the one who is insulting the speaker. I mean what a crappy product would that be, to cost all that paper dollars and has it's performance entirely dependent on a few inches. I mean nobody would buy that speaker if that were a fact. You can't always sit when listening to music. Its the whole concept of wide stage. All this critique is entirely logically absurd, and on top of that it is mixed with notes of hostility and intolerance to deviation of opinion. -
I can understand what ravaneli is saying. This is not unlike what I experienced. I do not own LSI's, I have RTI bookies.
The synergy with Onkyo is not the best for music. It can take some time for finding the right equipment for the speakers to perform properly in any given room. I was disappointed with my sound set up until I worked it all out and found the proper settings to make the speakers sound right for my house. It can take time. I do not have my speakers at ear levels either and they sound fine.
Not all people hear the same way, ask a guy whose ears stand out from his head. -
About the height issue, I am sitting on an office chair. With my setup, the Rti12's tweeter is considered as ear level. With the Lsi9 on top, the difference between 2 tweeters is around 12-15 inches, which is not a lot to me. If you are saying that we MUST listen at EXACT ear level to enjoy the speakers, then I think the speaker is defective because that is not the real world situation. In reality, we're moving around, sit down and standing up all the time while listening to music. Did i mention that the sound stage of the Lsi9 is very wide? From what I am a hearing, it's the sound, not the soundstage.
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About the height issue, I am sitting on an office chair. With my setup, the Rti12's tweeter is considered as ear level. With the Lsi9 on top, the difference between 2 tweeters is around 12-15 inches, which is not a lot to me. If you are saying that we MUST listen at EXACT ear level to enjoy the speakers, then I think the speaker is defective because that is not the real world situation. In reality, we're moving around, sit down and standing up all the time while listening to music. Did i mention that the sound stage of the Lsi9 is very wide? From what I am a hearing, it's the sound, not the soundstage.
Again, see post #44. Break them in then give your impressions.
My A9's sounded completely different as they broke in. -
While I do agree with Zero, I do not think that you need 15000-20000$ separates to enjoy those speakers. Those bookshelf need a good amount of clean power to sing and even a 500-600$ integrated could do that in small to moderate room. However, will they be at their best? No, far from it, but they'll probably play at something near 75% of their potential, which is good despite the "poor" electronics. I mean for the same price you can get a pair of RTiA3 for, you can get a pair of LSi7, which are, once positioned correctly, way more magical than the RTiA3 will ever be. Is it hi end speaker? I do not think so, but they are better in every aspect than the RTi line, except if you want glass breaking highs.
Is it fanboyism from most people here? Hell, some people arguing in favor of the LSi do no longer use any Polk in their system and are here to make some use of their experience so they can help people make a good choice.
@Ravaneli : Most speakers require delicate placement to sound their best. So, according to your logic, every bookshelf speaker is crappy if it doesn't sound perfect... on a bookshelf! The way the vifa tweeter function sure restraint it to be enjoyable by more than a few persons at the same time, as the sweet spot is very restrained... but who the hell listen critically to music with 8 of their friends?
Not to bash OP, as sure he is courageous to say such things, but please, try to set it correctly, using stands instead of a 50 inches speaker, and give us some news. It might sound the same to you, and that's fine this way. To me, my not even broken in yet LSi7 sounds more musical than any RTi I had before, even with my "sub-par" gear. I'm no longer increasing my tinnitus during my listening, which is heavenly IMO. Is it better than a pair of RTi12? Maybe yes, maybe not... but my pair requires less power, and cost the same, if not less.Speakers: Polk Audio LSiM 705, LSiM 703, LSiM 704c
Receiver: Denon X3500H -
About the height issue, I am sitting on an office chair. With my setup, the Rti12's tweeter is considered as ear level. With the Lsi9 on top, the difference between 2 tweeters is around 12-15 inches, which is not a lot to me. If you are saying that we MUST listen at EXACT ear level to enjoy the speakers, then I think the speaker is defective because that is not the real world situation. In reality, we're moving around, sit down and standing up all the time while listening to music. Did i mention that the sound stage of the Lsi9 is very wide? From what I am a hearing, it's the sound, not the soundstage.
This is ridiculous. If you can't understand that everything, room, gear, proper setup, that even a 1/2" difference can make or break it, you need a new hobby.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
About the height issue, I am sitting on an office chair. With my setup, the Rti12's tweeter is considered as ear level. With the Lsi9 on top, the difference between 2 tweeters is around 12-15 inches, which is not a lot to me. If you are saying that we MUST listen at EXACT ear level to enjoy the speakers, then I think the speaker is defective because that is not the real world situation. In reality, we're moving around, sit down and standing up all the time while listening to music. Did i mention that the sound stage of the Lsi9 is very wide? From what I am a hearing, it's the sound, not the soundstage.
You're right that it isn't effective in all conditions, but those speakers, IMO, are more for critical listening/or seating in sweetspot than ambient music while working, doing chores and such. So yeah, in those conditions, I agree RTi did better at filling the room with clear sound, even out of the sweet spot. However, in the sweet spot, this is way better IMO, there is even no comparison.
As I said, please try to set them correctly, you'll see they probably sound better. If it is better or not than your RTi12, only you could tell after a few time of critical listening. Please take that into account, the vifa tweeters are designed towards critical listening in the sweet spot because they have something like a 15 degree dispersion; out of that sweet spot, you begin to lose the "airiness" and sweet sound, in profit to a, let's say, muddier sound... and that's not for everyone or every situation, I confess. I mean, even my girlfriend heard a total difference between these LSi and my old RTi, and she's the kind to listen to her music using her laptop integrated speakers (while she didn't heard anything different between every RTi bookshelf I had)... Maybe it's more of a difference to those already using a pair of bookshelf/sub, not that much to people using towers, I don't know.Speakers: Polk Audio LSiM 705, LSiM 703, LSiM 704c
Receiver: Denon X3500H -
It is possible to make just about any speaker sound crappy. Sounds like you succeded. It's not fair to Polk Audio to do a hap-hazard setup, and then voice your displeasure with the speakers performance. Use a little professionalism next time.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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and what the hell does filling a stand with sand has to do with anything?
Really?? lol
See this link for some help. http://bit.ly/zjCuTF--Gary--
Onkyo Integra M504, Bottlehead Foreplay III, Denon SACD, Thiel CS2.3, NHT VT-2, VT-3 and Evolution T6, Infinity RSIIIa, SDA1C and a few dozen other speakers around the house I change in and out. -
Zero,
To response to what you said in C part, I think you're trying to compare Polk to those brands. Is that even fair? I mean what Polk's top of the line(Lsi) is like bottom of these brands. Polk is like Toyota (everyone can buy one anywhere), others that you mentioned is like BMW or Porsche. That is what I did when I tried to capture the high end sound (especially with all the talk about the sweet tweeter) with this Lsi9 and I failed
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To response to what you said in C part, I think you're trying to compare Polk to those brands. Is that even fair? I mean what Polk's top of the line(Lsi) is like bottom of these brands. Polk is like Toyota (everyone can buy one anywhere), others that you mentioned is like BMW or Porsche. That is what I did when I tried to capture the high end sound (especially with all the talk about the sweet tweeter) with this Lsi9 and I failed
Actually, the LSiM series is Polk's current TOTL. As far as those others being better, that's highly subjective. There's two brands named that no matter what, where and how, don't sound good to me. However, unlike you, I didn't drag any of them home, straight of the cartons, set them up completely wrong on less than stellar gear and pass judgement within the first few days.
Yes, you failed because you've done everything wrong. Until you understand that, you're going to have one disappointment after another.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
There are many brands that are difficult to get right in their positioning. I've had a couple of pairs of Proac's and they are quite fussy with positioning and components that drive them. You are comparing a floor stander to a stand mount speaker. I say stand mount because that's what they are designed to be placed on. Not just stuck on the top of what ever you have handy. Even different stands can alter the performance of the speaker. It's not fair to judge ANY speaker unless you are prepared to set them up to manufactures specification at least.2 Channel
Amp - Jas Audio Bravo 3.2 set
Power Cord - Tunami GPX
CDP - Marantz cd6002 - Audio gd Ref 5 Dac
Speakers - Tekton Lore,Polk Audio RTA11tl completely refreshed. -
Zero,
To response to what you said in C part, I think you're trying to compare Polk to those brands. Is that even fair? I mean what Polk's top of the line(Lsi) is like bottom of these brands. Polk is like Toyota (everyone can buy one anywhere), others that you mentioned is like BMW or Porsche. That is what I did when I tried to capture the high end sound (especially with all the talk about the sweet tweeter) with this Lsi9 and I failed
I agree that Polk is like Toyota or any "consumer" brand, but all the others mentionned by Zero would be more in the exotic class of cars if I was to use that analogy... By the way, I wouldn't consider Martin Logan as too pricey, as they actually got some really afordable speakers (Motion) that often get in sale here in Canada. But by comparing speakers to cars, you should know that even a highly priced Toyota can offer the same luxury than an entry level BMW...
Polk LSi aren't categorised as audiophile speaker (mostly because the brand Polk rebutes a lot of audiophiles; and 2, the price tag which may be low to some people considering audiophile bookshelf are over 1000$), but they can offer you a glimpse of what High-end speakers can do at a fraction of their price. I mean, at MSRP, I do not think they are such a great bargain as there is many others possibilities and a strong competition. However, at half this price, they outclass any of their "same price" competition, given they are properly set and powered accordingly... at least, if it suit your tastes.
And now that Polk has their LSiM line, I wouldn't call them Toyota, more like a Toyota-Lexus dealer to me... [they don't go at the exotic "Ferrari" speakers level, but they sure step in the audiophile "luxury" game]
But please nhhiep, while I agree those speakers aren't for everyone, I urge you to try them with proper stands, at ear level, with correct toe-in and such. Take some time to do your homeworks, learn about the positionning of bookshelf (should I say standmount) speakers. Set them in the ideal position, even if you know you wouldn't be using them this way, and take your time to listen. I'm sure you'll notice a difference. It might not be night and day when compared to your RTi12, but I'm sure you'll be pleased with the result, and then, you might agree that when correctly set (and for people who can sit down and enjoy their music), they are great speakers for their price.
Sure, everyone has their own opinion, and like Erik, you can prefer your RTi, but at least, give them a proper chance to fight. You might be rewarded, and if not, well, at least, you could tell us that you tried Speakers: Polk Audio LSiM 705, LSiM 703, LSiM 704c
Receiver: Denon X3500H -
OK, here's a thought. Maybe a graceful bow-out for you would be to pass the LSI-9's on to someone else to compare and or enjoy. Shoot me a PM and perhaps I'll be the new tester and will compare with my RTI-A9's. Good luck.Main Family Room: Sony 46 LCD, Sony Blue Ray, Sony DVD/VCR combo,Onkyo TXNR 708, Parasound 5250,
Polk SDS-SRS with mods, CSI 5 center + Klipsch SC2, Polk RT2000P rears, Klipsch KG 1.5's sides, Polk Micro Pro 1000, Polk Micro Pro 2000, Polk SW505, Belkin PF60, Signal Cable Classics,Monster IC's, 2 15 amp circuits & 1 20 amp circuit.
Living Room: Belkin PF60, Parasound HCA2200, MIT ProlineEXP balanced IC's,Emotiva XDA-1 DAC/Pre,Emotiva ERC2 transport,MIT AVT2, Polk LSI 9's.
