Breaking in my mm6501's

bokdaddy

Hey guys, I installed my new mm6501's a couple weeks ago now and am curious about the break in period. I'm in the car for about an hour a day, four days a week with the music at a generous volume. I was wondering how long I should expect the break-in period to take.

On a side note, I spent the first week using just my Kenwood BT-945U to power them. Last weekend I threw in an old California Profile 2ch amp (runs 100w x 2 @ 2 ohms) I had lying around from when I was in college. I'm still not getting nearly as much midbass as I was expecting. I'm assuming it's because the amp is not of good enough quality (I actually have to turn the bass boost on the amp all the way up to get the mids to even sound halfway decent). I plan to upgrade the amp, as soon as I have the money, to a Rockford Fosgate Punch series amp but right now I'm just wondering...

How much of my lack of midbass is due to the break-in period, and how much is due to my lower quality amp?

arun1963

1. Are your doors sealed? Assuming thats where you have them mounted.

2. Typically break in would be about 40-60hrs.

I doubt if the amp is the cause of missing midbass. You can dis count the hours from the first week cause you were only using the hu. So you've basically got 4-6hours on them. If your doors are sealed, I'd say its still in break in period.

bokdaddy

They're sealed, maybe not well enough. They're installed in a 6x8 openings with the supplied brackets over plastic Metra adapter brackets. I'd like to use mdf but don't have access to the tools needed to construct an mdf adapter.

My car is a 2010 Mazda 6. I added dynamat to the inside of the doors but the doors themselves are almost completely sealed by a plastic panel. Maybe this is contributing? Could the seal inside the door be too great?

pentoncm

As far as 'sealing the door' all you need to do is make sure that the backwave can't meet the frontwave of the speaker. This is what kills the midbass. So as long as the adjacent openings next to the speaker are covered you are good to go. Also it will be much better if the speaker is mounted on top of a layer of dynamat instead of being on plastic or metal.

If you don't get enough midbass in the end as you want you should consider tuning. The 315 -800Hz kills the midbass on your near side. The far side will have too much 3-5kHz coming from the woofer making the midbass from that side thin.

I heard pretty good midbass right away even without any EQ. I did have 24db filters however everywhere.

bokdaddy

Interesting... It's definitely sealed around the opening, no open holes. I haven't dynamatted the opening but it doesn't seem like just that would be enough to fill in the frequencies that are lacking. They really sound empty. Right now my sound seems almost entirely sub and tweeter. I know I must have something I can fix.

bokdaddy

Also, I dynamatted the metal behind the speakers hoping that would help with the backwave

pentoncm

They should sound good right away. If it really sounds bad then something is up.

Does each woofer sound bad on its own or is it when you play everything together. If the two woofers are out of phase with each other it will cancel your midbass really bad.

bokdaddy

I think the problem is individually and together but I'll have to check for phase cancellation later tonight. Thanks for your help so far I've been really disappointed up to this point. I've been a huge Polk fan for nine years and I'm sure my problem is just user error.

ocharlas

For what it's worth, I just installed a pair yesterday and was surprised at how low they got. In fact I had the brackets mounted to metal and the vibration was pretty bad so today I just went to the hardware store and got a roll of adhesive window sealant. Put a layer of that behind the bracket and now they sound awesome, nice detailed low end especially when I turn them up - and I'm only running them off the factory amp and they're definitely not getting enough power. I'm expecting much more when my D4000.4 comes in tomorrow.

bokdaddy

Yikes. That's what I was hoping for when I put mine in. And they do go low but it rolls off bad. I'm gonna test for phase tonight and might pull the door off again tomorrow. I don't understand why no one makes mdf adapters. Seems like they'd sell fine. ...and I haven't even begun thinking about where to put the tweeters to fix my soundstage... *sigh*

Vital

There's a LOT of mdf (as well as plastic) adapters of all sizes including your own custom ones all over Ebay. Around $15-20 will get you a pair of adapters.

And for tweeter placement - after you figure out what's up with your woofers and get it fixed play around with tweeter's location by getting some double sided tape to the back of it and driving around with tweets in different locations for a few days. It should give you an idea where and under what angle you like them more before drilling holes in your car for permanent placement.

bokdaddy

Unfortunately, I've looked. The only thing I can find on ebay looks to be 6x8 to 5.25. I'd feel a whole lot better with sealed MDF adapters but have scoured Amazon, eBay and every site I could think of... nothing.

The double-sided tape idea isn't bad though. I've read a few different ideas for tweeters. I'm just disappointed that the stock spot is so terrible. The factory tweeters didn't sound so off balance but now that I've got the mm's in all I can hear is the left. I was really hoping I wouldn't have to make a hole.

arun1963

Also check for polarity in the connections + to + and - to -. Amp to xover and xover to speakers.

Vital

bokdaddy wrote: »

Unfortunately, I've looked. The only thing I can find on ebay looks to be 6x8 to 5.25. I'd feel a whole lot better with sealed MDF adapters but have scoured Amazon, eBay and every site I could think of... nothing.

3 pages of mdf rings of different sizes. Which one do you need?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=mdf+speaker+ring&_sacat=0&_odkw=mdf+speaker&_osacat=0&_from=R40

bokdaddy

Vital wrote: »

3 pages of mdf rings of different sizes. Which one do you need?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=mdf+speaker+ring&_sacat=0&_odkw=mdf+speaker&_osacat=0&_from=R40

I need a 6x8 to 6.5, of which there are none.

bokdaddy

arun1963 wrote: »

Also check for polarity in the connections + to + and - to -. Amp to xover and xover to speakers.

After playing with the balance I can say they're not out of phase with each other, but I plan to check all the wiring this morning.

MacLeod

There not going to have as much midbass as your stock speakers if that's what you're comparing them to. The stock speakers are designed to give decent bass output because most people associate good sound with lots of bass. So the manufacturers use this trick so people think their cheap, crappy, paper cone speakers don't suck as much as they actually do and it was worth that $1000 you paid for the "premium" sound system.

So while your MM's wont have as much bass to them compared to your stock speakers, they'll have far superior midrange and high range performance and if paired with a sub, will sound much better. Plus 6x8's have more cone area than 6.5's so they'll have more low end kick anyways.

bokdaddy

MacLeod wrote: »

There not going to have as much midbass as your stock speakers if that's what you're comparing them to. The stock speakers are designed to give decent bass output because most people associate good sound with lots of bass. So the manufacturers use this trick so people think their cheap, crappy, paper cone speakers don't suck as much as they actually do and it was worth that $1000 you paid for the "premium" sound system.

So while your MM's wont have as much bass to them compared to your stock speakers, they'll have far superior midrange and high range performance and if paired with a sub, will sound much better. Plus 6x8's have more cone area than 6.5's so they'll have more low end kick anyways.

I absolutely agree. I may not have been completely clear. I'm not looking for bass that could almost compare to an 8" sub, I'm just hoping for smooth sound. Everything from a kick drum, to a guitar riff, to lower male vocals sound flat and lifeless. The lack of midbass has been the most obvious and the most difficult to fix using the eq on the head unit, but there's just no substance in my music. Even though the enclosure of a car door is nowhere near as effective as a bookshelf cabinet I was under the impression I could at least hope for comparable sound with proper amplification and plenty of Dynamat. Maybe I'm asking too much?

MacLeod

Have you checked that the high pass filter on the amp is turned off? It should be playing full range.

bokdaddy

MacLeod wrote: »

Have you checked that the high pass filter on the amp is turned off? It should be playing full range.

Yup. Checked, double checked, and triple checked. One more possibility... could it be the effect of poor grounding? The amp powering my sub is connected to the same point via a distribution block and I have no issues with that one. But is it still possibly effecting my 2ch amp?

KaosTsoc

bokdaddy... here are some links for your adaptors. Also when you try searching for it, try searching in google for 6x8 speaker adaptor. Here is one on amazon, it is plastic, but a good start:

http://www.amazon.com/Scosche-SA68-Convertible-6x8-Inch-Speaker/dp/B0007TJDFM

Here is the google string search I got back as well: (Hope this link works).

http://www.google.com/search?q=6x8%20speaker%20adaptor&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&oe=utf8&safe=images&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbo=u&tbm=shop&source=og&sa=N&tab=wf


Here is one for ebay too:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=6x8+speaker+adaptor&_sacat=See-All-Categories



Please dont take this the wrong way, but when you are searching try to keep you search criteria as basic as possible. I have found that if you put in to much you dont always get what you are looking for, but if you put in basic search criteria you usually get better results. I dont know if you will many mdf made adaptors, but if you get the plastic ones. You can use that as a template to make them yourself out of 1/4" mdf. Provided you have the tools to it, if not I am willing to bet if you offer up some drinks, and food to a friend that has the tools. I am sure they would be willing to let you use them. Hope this helps you out.


Thanks.

bokdaddy

KaosTsoc wrote: »

bokdaddy... here are some links for your adaptors. Also when you try searching for it, try searching in google for 6x8 speaker adaptor. Here is one on amazon, it is plastic, but a good start:

http://www.amazon.com/Scosche-SA68-Convertible-6x8-Inch-Speaker/dp/B0007TJDFM

Here is the google string search I got back as well: (Hope this link works).

http://www.google.com/search?q=6x8%20speaker%20adaptor&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&oe=utf8&safe=images&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbo=u&tbm=shop&source=og&sa=N&tab=wf


Here is one for ebay too:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=6x8+speaker+adaptor&_sacat=See-All-Categories



Please dont take this the wrong way, but when you are searching try to keep you search criteria as basic as possible. I have found that if you put in to much you dont always get what you are looking for, but if you put in basic search criteria you usually get better results. I dont know if you will many mdf made adaptors, but if you get the plastic ones. You can use that as a template to make them yourself out of 1/4" mdf. Provided you have the tools to it, if not I am willing to bet if you offer up some drinks, and food to a friend that has the tools. I am sure they would be willing to let you use them. Hope this helps you out.


Thanks.

Kaos, I truly appreciate any help offered even if it doesn't necessarily solve the problem just yet. I do have plastic adapters installed already though. It's the elusive MDF ones I'm seeking online and I don't have access to the tools at this point. But as an owner of the 6501's, how did you feel about yours straight out of the box?

arun1963

A 6.5" mid is not going to hit the low end like an 8". You'll need a sub for that. Let your ears settle in for a few days and if you still need more at the lower end add a sub. Common grounding is recommended for all electricals in the chain. You would hear grounding issues in ways other than loss of low end.

EBAN44

Just to make sure are you playing a true CD? and not using MP3 or some other form? It will give you a better range, also check your headunits output. It could have some filter on it cutting off your lowend.

pentoncm

Hold on. What exactly are you missing in the sound? Is it the kick drum that you want to have more impact and really low bass or are we really talking about midbass and lower midrange here. Midbass is going to be made up of the notes of the bass guitar from low to high.

Do you have a car system to compare to? Are you expecting more because your reference is home audio? No matter how good a speaker is midbass wise, you won't hear the midbass unless you EQ the car extensively. The MM series is up there with the best as far as a 6.5inch midbass driver, it even has more midbass than the Hertz Hi-Energy series which is highly regarded.

The MM can go really low, I've run the filter down to 30Hz just to check out how they do and they pound in my doors. I have EQ however, if I disable all eq the bass/midbass dies. The response i'm talking about is not due to boosting, it is due to cutting out the response peaks.

KaosTsoc

Well the ebay link I put on here has mdf ones. They are toward the bottom of the page. As for the MM6501's sadly I have not had a chance to install them yet due to the fact I have to get my sail panels customized to fit the tweets in. And at the moment I dont have the money for it. The other thing is my answer will be subjective since for the last 4+ years I have been running the DB coaxial speakers off of an amp, not hu power. So my ears are more used to the sound. Plus I have the speakers installed in baffles to help protect them. Which those will go away when I install the MM's, and my doors are sealed sealed sealed. like over kill sealed sort of. I wishi I could answre you question better though sorry....

Thanks.

bokdaddy

Haha sorry guys. One more time... There are no 6x8 to 6.5 adapters on ebay. There are lots of others but not 6x8 to 6.5. And I mean midbass just the way you described it, but I'm saying a lot seems to be lacking. But mainly, it's the midbass. As in a bass guitar all the way up to lower vocals. But I checked everything. The wiring is all in phase, the HPF and LPF are off on the amp, the crossover on the headunit is only set to cut 60hz and below right now. Everything looks right, it has to be the amp. I'll be trying a PA660 tomorrow...I'll let you know what happens.
Thanks again,

James

bokdaddy

and i mean no MDF 6x8's to 6.5...

MacLeod

bokdaddy wrote: »

the crossover on the headunit is only set to cut 60hz and below right now.

I knew it! Theres your problem right there. Turn that crossover off completely. Let them run full range on down. 40-63Hz is where the punch and energy is for the midbass and youve got it cut off. I knew that had to be it but I was thinking the crossover on the amp and didnt think to ask about the one on the head unit.

bokdaddy

MacLeod wrote: »

I knew it! Theres your problem right there. Turn that crossover off completely. Let them run full range on down. 40-63Hz is where the punch and energy is for the midbass and youve got it cut off. I knew that had to be it but I was thinking the crossover on the amp and didnt think to ask about the one on the head unit.

Really? I was under the impression that having them run that low would increase distortion. I do have a Boston Acoustics G312 handling 60 and below... Hmmm... I'll have to give that a go. Hope that one is it but I'm going to try the PA660 too just in case. I'll just take it back to Best Buy if it isn't making a difference, ha. Thanks a million for the help. This forum has been invaluable to me more than once.
James

MacLeod

It will not cause distortion. It is harder to reproduce frequencies the lower you go in the spectrum but a 6" mid like the MM is more than capable of reproducing down to 50Hz easily and 40 with little problem.

Now what this can do is make it where you cant crank the volume as much. The lower the crossover frequency, the more bass output youre gonna get but this also means that itll overload the mid a lot easier. Still, this shouldnt be a problem for most music and listened to at musical levels.

Try experimenting with the settings and see what sounds best. If your crossover will go low enough, try it at 40Hz with a 24db/oct slope. Ive used a 63Hz cutoff on my midbass before but that was for competition where theyre cranking the volume very high and using very boomy bass heavy music with stand up cellos and such. My own personal tune has the cutoffs back down to a respectable 40Hz for my heavy metal listening as this really beefs up the low end.

So itll depend on your musical tastes but try it at full range first. If your listening habits overpower the mid, bring the crossover up to 40 and see how that sounds.