Vinyl my brothers....VINYL

audiocr381ve

I had a revelation this morning. First I'll start with saying that I'm not a vinyl snob. I actually listen to digital more than I do vinyl. I'm 26, this is normal. But that may change. This morning I was listening to a new record which is just effing phenomenal (George Benson - Breezin'), and I realized that vinyl absolutely sounds better. Sure digital is technically more accurate but this morning's listening session really made me a believer. I'm officially in the vinyl camp. My SDA 2BTL's were articulating the bass guitar like I've never heard. I don't mind the snap, crackle, pop either. I have the album Head Hunters by Herbie Hancock that is absolutely beat to **** but still sounds incredible.

I'm thinking the goal of the new system I'm building will be for vinyl playback. It is neither convenient, or easy, to take good care of an analog system but what matters is that I can't get enough of the music when it's spinning on a turntable!

To end with a good story, I was at my brothers tonight and saw a stack of records that he ended up taking when his roomate moved out and got married. There had to be at least 20 in the stack. I looked them over and saw some gems. Long story short, on my way out he said "take em." Tomorrow is gonna be a good day!

Any thoughts on what to replace my Technics SLD2 with?

thsmith

Whats your Budget? There is so much more to Vinyl than just the TT. Cart, SUT, Phono stage and correct cart and tone arm alignment.

I had a friend over last weekend who is a pure digitial guy. He came over to check out my digital setup which I am quiet happy with and it sounds great. I had not spun any vinyl since getting it last December.

He asked if I had compared my music server to my vinyl rig and I had not. My reference album is Poco's Blue and Grey and finally found the CD version so we listened to both going back in forth several times but it only took one listening session to know vinyl sounded so much better.

I do find myself listening to more digital music these days but nothing does it for me like my vinyl rig.

Good luck on your search and do lots of research and you shall be rewarded.

quadzilla

thsmith wrote: »

Whats your Budget? There is so much more to Vinyl than just the TT. Cart, SUT, Phono stage and correct cart and tone arm alignment.

I had a friend over last weekend who is a pure digitial guy. He came over to check out my digital setup which I am quiet happy with and it sounds great. I had not spun any vinyl since getting it last December.

He asked if I had compared my music server to my vinyl rig and I had not. My reference album is Poco's Blue and Grey and finally found the CD version so we listened to both going back in forth several times but it only took one listening session to know vinyl sounded so much better.

I do find myself listening to more digital music these days but nothing does it for me like my vinyl rig.

Good luck on your search and do lots of research and you shall be rewarded.

And by SUT, Tracy means step up transformer, which you need only if you want to plug a low output moving coil cartridge into a phono preamp designed for high output moving magnet cartridges. I prefer phono preamps designed for the cartridge you'll be using, but that's a separate discussion. Otherwise, like Tracy asked; what's your budget? You can spend a lot or a little on an analog front end, and there's a number of good values out there.

Joe08867

Get a Rega, Or find a hopped up Technics.

tonyb

I would first make sure you have tubes in the mix. Tubes and vinyl are like peanut butter and jelly.

BeefJerky

Joe08867 wrote: »

Get a Rega, Or find a hopped up Technics.

I'm going to assume that Joe means the Technics SL-1200MK2 (or variants thereof), in which case I agree. I have one, and it isn't even a souped-up version. It is stock, except that I replaced the captive cord with a custom made RCA connector box on the bottom using parts from partsexpress. In addition, the box has a third RCA connector that allows me to choose whether to use the "ground mod" (bridge the tonearm ground wire to audio grounds) or run a separate wire. I'm very happy with it, and think it is a great turntable. I use it with a Denon DL-110 cartridge and a Cambridge Azur 640p preamp, and it sounds fantastic.

audiocr381ve

BeefJerky wrote: »

I'm going to assume that Joe means the Technics SL-1200MK2 (or variants thereof), in which case I agree. I have one, and it isn't even a souped-up version. It is stock, except that I replaced the captive cord with a custom made RCA connector box on the bottom using parts from partsexpress. In addition, the box has a third RCA connector that allows me to choose whether to use the "ground mod" (bridge the tonearm ground wire to audio grounds) or run a separate wire. I'm very happy with it, and think it is a great turntable. I use it with a Denon DL-110 cartridge and a Cambridge Azur 640p preamp, and it sounds fantastic.

Man, now that I think about it, this SLD2 sounds freaking sweet. I wonder how much better the 1200mk2 sounds. They are always for sale on my local craigslist from $300-$500. I do like the idea of not having to worry about a belt.

I guess my price range would be around the $200-$300 range.

I have some Santana spinning now, sheesh it sounds good.

nooshinjohn

Once you down the Dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.:cheesygrin:

audiocr381ve

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Once you down the Dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.:cheesygrin:

DUDE! That Yamaha PX-3 looks like a beast!

heiney9

Think beyond Technics or stay with what you have. The 1200 won't sound that much better.

H9

audiocr381ve

heiney9 wrote: »

Think beyond Technics or stay with what you have. The 1200 won't sound that much better.

H9

Have any recommendations in my price range Brock?

SolidSqual

Pro-ject is a good brand to start your audio journey. Their tables arrive pre-setup and can be upgraded as your experience and tastes mature. The line up spans the very affordable to the high end.

BeefJerky

audiocr381ve wrote: »

Man, now that I think about it, this SLD2 sounds freaking sweet. I wonder how much better the 1200mk2 sounds. They are always for sale on my local craigslist from $300-$500. I do like the idea of not having to worry about a belt.

I guess my price range would be around the $200-$300 range.

I have some Santana spinning now, sheesh it sounds good.

Well, you do have to be careful with used 1200's since they are sometimes treated very roughly. Some may be home used, but many are used in a DJ environment. Now, that's not to say that all DJ's abuse their equipment or anything, but you'll want to inspect it before you purchase. Some simply use it to play records and are careful with it, while others use it for scratching and treat it poorly. Here are a few things to look for in used ones should you go this route:
1) Tonearm bearings
1a) move the tonearm about and watch for any play and listen for clicking sounds - there should be no play and no clicking sounds - if there are, it has been abused, so don't bother with it unless you want to change the tonearm
1b) set antiskate to zero and balance the tonearm so it floats freely, then move it to the center of the record
1bI) if it flies back, it's damaged - again don't bother with it unless you plan on changing the tonearm
1bII) If it slowly goes back to the outer part of the record or simply stays at the inner part, that is good
1bIIA) Now gently flick it back and forth a few times - it should move absolutely smoothly - if it stops or moves unevenly, it's damaged
2) Tonearm height adjustment - make sure you can unlock it and move it freely
3) The direct drive motor system
3a) Turn it on and start it from a stop trying both speeds - it should come up to speed and lock very quickly (~0.7s at 33rpm)
3b) While running, try slowing the platter down with your hand - once you let go it should quickly lock to its proper speed again.
3c) Make sure the braking works when you hit the button to stop it - as long as you can see it working, don't worry too much about how accurately or quickly it stops since it can easily be adjusted
4) The captive RCA cord - they are damaged easily, and many will replace them anyway

The above four are the primary things to ensure functionality and are critical. I will list a couple more you can look at depending on how much you care.
5) Pitch control - these are quite commonly worn out or gummed up. If it is of concern to you, make sure it works smoothly. If not, simply make sure when it is locked in the center position that the green light is on, and the platter is at the proper speed.
6) 45rpm adapter - commonly missing, but can be replaced
7) Neon platter speed light (under the power switch) - it's not uncommon for those to be out
8) Pop-up light - very common to be out, but probably won't matter at all for home use

It may sound like a lot, but it's really not. Also the first four can really apply to nearly any turntable you choose to buy used. Also, decide how much the cosmetic condition matters to you. Even if it is taken care of, it probably has scrapes and scratches on the body and the dust cover. You can probably negotiate the price down further if you are willing to live with cosmetic defects or are willing to fix them yourself.

audiocr381ve

SolidSqual wrote: »

Pro-ject is a good brand to start your audio journey. Their tables arrive pre-setup and can be upgraded as your experience and tastes mature. The line up spans the very affordable to the high end.

Whoa, never even heard of them. The Genie looks sick. http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=rpm13&cat=turntables&lang=en

What would be a good place to start in their lineup?

audiocr381ve

BeefJerky wrote: »

Well, you do have to be careful with used 1200's since they are sometimes treated very roughly. Some may be home used, but many are used in a DJ environment. Now, that's not to say that all DJ's abuse their equipment or anything, but you'll want to inspect it before you purchase. Some simply use it to play records and are careful with it, while others use it for scratching and treat it poorly. Here are a few things to look for in used ones should you go this route:
1) Tonearm bearings
1a) move the tonearm about and watch for any play and listen for clicking sounds - there should be no play and no clicking sounds - if there are, it has been abused, so don't bother with it unless you want to change the tonearm
1b) set antiskate to zero and balance the tonearm so it floats freely, then move it to the center of the record
1bI) if it flies back, it's damaged - again don't bother with it unless you plan on changing the tonearm
1bII) If it slowly goes back to the outer part of the record or simply stays at the inner part, that is good
1bIIA) Now gently flick it back and forth a few times - it should move absolutely smoothly - if it stops or moves unevenly, it's damaged
2) Tonearm height adjustment - make sure you can unlock it and move it freely
3) The direct drive motor system
3a) Turn it on and start it from a stop trying both speeds - it should come up to speed and lock very quickly (~0.7s at 33rpm)
3b) While running, try slowing the platter down with your hand - once you let go it should quickly lock to its proper speed again.
3c) Make sure the braking works when you hit the button to stop it - as long as you can see it working, don't worry too much about how accurately or quickly it stops since it can easily be adjusted
4) The captive RCA cord - they are damaged easily, and many will replace them anyway

The above four are the primary things to ensure functionality and are critical. I will list a couple more you can look at depending on how much you care.
5) Pitch control - these are quite commonly worn out or gummed up. If it is of concern to you, make sure it works smoothly. If not, simply make sure when it is locked in the center position that the green light is on, and the platter is at the proper speed.
6) 45rpm adapter - commonly missing, but can be replaced
7) Neon platter speed light (under the power switch) - it's not uncommon for those to be out
8) Pop-up light - very common to be out, but probably won't matter at all for home use

It may sound like a lot, but it's really not. Also the first four can really apply to nearly any turntable you choose to buy used. Also, decide how much the cosmetic condition matters to you. Even if it is taken care of, it probably has scrapes and scratches on the body and the dust cover. You can probably negotiate the price down further if you are willing to live with cosmetic defects or are willing to fix them yourself.

Excellent advice. I may just end up buying new since these damn things are so delicate.

heiney9

$200-300, nope. You'd just be pissing in the wind. Save more and when you hit the $700-$1K mark then you'll have something to be proud of.

H9

audiocr381ve

heiney9 wrote: »

$200-300, nope. You'd just be pissing in the wind. Save more and when you hit the $700-$1K mark then you'll have something to be proud of.

H9

What about those Pro-ject tables? I'm leaning towards buying a new table.

BeefJerky

audiocr381ve wrote: »

Excellent advice. I may just end up buying new since these damn things are so delicate.

They're really not - well at least the 1200's that I'm talking about. They are actually extremely well built and durable turntables, much more so than just about any other, including the Pro-ject ones that are mentioned. When I say damage from abuse, I mean serious abuse. I'm talking things such as dropping the turntable or dropping things on the turntable, or outright yanking and smashing the arm about. It takes a sincere effort to damage a 1200.

heiney9

Except durable doesn't equal great sound quality. A Pro-ject or Music Hall, even the most basic, will run circles around the SL1200. It was a decent table in the 90's for DJ'ing, that's it. They HAD to be durable, that doesn't relate to it being a stellar sounding unit, which it isnt compared to the many others today and even of that era. The thing is the TT's of that era that were much better sounding than the SL1200 are now more affordable than ever and they will smoke the SL1200.

H9

heiney9

That said, you could do a lot worse than a nicely maintained SL1200, I just get tired of people saying it's as good as current offerings, most times it simply isn't.

H9

BeefJerky

heiney9 wrote: »

Except durable doesn't equal great sound quality. A Pro-ject or Music Hall, even the most basic, will run circles around the SL1200. It was a decent table in the 90's for DJ'ing, that's it. They HAD to be durable, that doesn't relate to it being a stellar sounding unit, which it isnt compared to the many others today and even of that era. The thing is the TT's of that era that were much better sounding than the SL1200 are now more affordable than ever and they will smoke the SL1200.

H9

Honestly, I wonder whether you've actually heard a properly setup 1200 with a good cartridge and preamp. I've listened to both Pro-ject's and Music Halls, and I honestly don't that hear much of a difference in sound quality. Sorry.

heiney9

Like I said, not bad but in this case the OP would be making a lateral move.

H9

steveinaz

Used Rega RP-1? If you're gonna go budget, go Rega.

heiney9

BeefJerky wrote: »

Honestly, I wonder whether you've actually heard a properly setup 1200 with a good cartridge and preamp. I've listened to both Pro-ject's and Music Halls, and I honestly don't that hear much of a difference in sound quality. Sorry.

Not much to the set-up. You make it sound like it's a complicated machine, it's not. I've owned and heard several with very good cartridges. One could do worse, but there's better out there and you don't have to pay the mark-up associated with the exaggerated legend that is the SL1200. It only became popular because Dj's in the 90's used them as standard equipment. What the Dj's coveted them for has nothing to do with what an audiophile looks for. They also used pro-amps, pro speakers and mixing boards. I don't see audiophiles clamoring to use pro-amps or pro-speakers.

H9

BeefJerky

heiney9 wrote: »

Like I said, not bad but in this case the OP would be making a lateral move.

H9

I don't think it would be a large improvement, but I wouldn't call it lateral either. The tonearm on the 1200MK2's are much better than the D2's. It also has an upgraded motor assembly that is more stable, as well as a better plinth that is less susceptible to outside interference.

audiocr381ve

Maybe I should stick with what I have and buy a decent cart for it? I have a Shure cart on their now and if I had one complaint it would be the highs aren't as extended as I'd like them to be. Everything else is just superb. Even this cheap table paired with my Marantz 1150 integrated beats out of lot of the gear I've been through.

BeefJerky

audiocr381ve wrote: »

Maybe I should stick with what I have and buy a decent cart for it? I have a Shure cart on their now and if I had one complaint it would be the highs aren't as extended as I'd like them to be. Everything else is just superb. Even this cheap table paired with my Marantz 1150 integrated beats out of lot of the gear I've been through.

That wouldn't be a bad idea. A good cartridge and preamp can make a world of difference. I like my Denon DL-110; it is on the warm side, but is in no way lacking extension in the highs.

heiney9

Let me put it this way and this is only my opinion;

If he didn;t have a TT and wanted to get his feet wet and he found an SL1200 for a decent price and in good shape, I'd say go for it. But since that's not the case, I can't recommend it.

H9

tonyb

heiney9 wrote: »

You'd just be pissing in the wind.
H9

.....something wrong with that. Been pissing in the wind my whole life.....kinda grown acustomed to the taste too.:cheesygrin:

Sometimes Brock, it's best to let one find out for themselves.

BeefJerky

heiney9 wrote: »

Let me put it this way and this is only my opinion;

If he didn;t have a TT and wanted to get his feet wet and he found an SL1200 for a decent price and in good shape, I'd say go for it. But since that's not the case, I can't recommend it.

H9

That's cool. I welcome different opinions, and understand your point of view as well. Also, while his turntable may not quite be up to par with the 1200 (IMO), it is certainly a far cry from some of the ultra-low-quality pieces of crap that have been churned out over the years. This includes any turntable you could buy new from a big chain store. I've seen what Fry's and Best Buy carry, and it's hard not to hang my head in shame when I see them.

heiney9

Agreed ^^