AWD versus 4X4

Jstas

Syndil wrote: »

Sadly, you have already proven yourself wrong in that regard.

http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/brandpages/ford/131_0201_transfer_case_ford_escape_ford_sport_trac/index.html

http://www.romaine.name/escape/how_4x4_works.htm

Uhhhh....no stupid. I never said there was a 4Lo or multiple speeds in the transfer case. I said there was a low-range. I have no misgivings or misconceptions about the Escape. It has a purpose which it serves very well. If I want to go hard-core offroad I have a much larger and much more powerful vehicle for that.

I know full well how the transmission and transfer case in my vehicle work. Mine is old enough that the AWD system is the one supplied by Dana and has a switch on the dashboard which locks the center differential and will hold the vehicle in 1st or 2nd for low range, 4 wheel traction. It's not a 4Lo, it is a low-range though.

Willow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8FM8nyy_Fk

:twisted:

Syndil

Jstas wrote: »

Uhhhh....no stupid. I never said there was a 4Lo or multiple speeds in the transfer case. I said there was a low-range. I have no misgivings or misconceptions about the Escape. It has a purpose which it serves very well. If I want to go hard-core offroad I have a much larger and much more powerful vehicle for that.

You also said that there clearly was a transfer case underneath your vehicle. Wrong. And that statement was used as your justification for the claim that there was a low range, implying that it was the transfer case that possessed the low range. Also wrong.

Jstas wrote: »

I know full well how the transmission and transfer case in my vehicle work. Mine is old enough that the AWD system is the one supplied by Dana and has a switch on the dashboard which locks the center differential and will hold the vehicle in 1st or 2nd for low range, 4 wheel traction. It's not a 4Lo, it is a low-range though.

Still wrong. The Dana system in the original 2001 Ford Escape was in fact Control Trac II, utilizing an RBC, just as I specified previously. There was never a locking center differential on any Escape, despite what you read on Wikipedia or were told by car salesmen.

The Car And Driver article I linked to that clearly illustrates how the Escape's 4WD system is in fact an AWD system was printed in July of 2000, when the first Ford Escapes were becoming available. Here it is again, if you missed it:

http://www.romaine.name/escape/how_4x4_works.htm

Yet Another All-New All-Wheel Drive
by Frank Markus from the July 2000 issue of Car and Driver

Contrary to what you?ll be told by the dashboard markings, your Ford Outfitter salesperson, and even Ford?s press materials, the Escape?s Control Trac II system does not offer fully locked four-wheel drive. Rather, this on-demand all-wheel-drive setup only sends power to the rear axle when the front wheels slip.

...

When set to ?4x4 On?, an electromagnet energizes a small clutch pack, locking a ball ramp to the input shaft. Now when the wheels spin, they turn the ball ramp, which overrides the RBC and pressurizes the same multiplate clutch pack. In the ?4x4 On? mode, the rear axle is engaged quicker and more securely. The front and rear axles are, however, never locked together except during front wheel slippage.

How will you attempt to change the meaning of words to get out of this one, I wonder.

gdb

Here is the best response.

F1nut

Syndil wrote: »

An "appeal to authority" fallacy, which doesn't even support your original claim that there is an industry standard for labeling AWD/4WD systems.

So, now you've gone from definition to labeling. Too funny!

Jstas

Syndil wrote: »

blah blah blah

So then I guess the locking button on my dashboard doesn't exist? Man, I must be smokin' some good crack then!

And I did not use the existence of a transfer case as justification for low range. I said it was evidence of a 4WD drive system, not an AWD system. The case is part of the transmission housing because it is oriented in a FWD layout but even my ALLDATA calls it a transfer case/housing.

And no, it is not a fully locked AWD set up. The center diff is the only one that locks. Front and rear are open as well as the hubs.

I'm not really concerned about what the C&D article says. Because you highlight only what supports your argument and neglect the rest of the article. Like the part about electromagnetic clutch pack that locks a ball ramp to the input shaft. You also cut out a MAJOR part of the article.

The issue isn't that I'm spinning words. The issue is that you are selectively taking words out of context or assigning a different meaning than what the context of my statements presents and trying to refute what I'm saying because you desperately want to prove me wrong. The problem with that is you clearly do not understand what you are talking about and you keep using other people's words to support your argument that you don't even understand. But, it's people like you that make me feel that I have to post novella-like posts where I cover every single possible issue in the argument in minute, specific detail just so when people like you show up to try to teach me a lesson or whatever silly ideal you have in your twisted little cranium, you have no leg to stand on. Then you will tell everyone I'm pompous and I'm arrogant and I'm a know-it-all because you have no argument.

How many more articles do you want to quote? How many more times do you want to try to paint me as some kind of troll with a character assassination? Why does this even matter so much to you? If you think I'm wrong and you think I'll never acquiesce to your "proof" of my wrongness then why bother? Why not just go back to the rock you crawled out from under and let me be as wrong as you think I am? Do I bother you that much? Do you HATE me that much? Do I have so much control over you're pathetic excuse for a life that I can control you so well with just my words? Are you that small minded that you can't see that I'm mocking you right now with these words? Don't you have anything better to do but piss and moan on an AUDIO forum about what an AWD vs. a 4WD system is until everyone who has told you that you're wrong just gets tired of your crap and lets you be wrong and "win" the argument by forfeit just so you'll shut the hell up?

Seriously, champ. I have an Escape. It's white. Has fancy wheels. I put cool, knobby tires with raised white letters on it. My GF drives it. She LOVES it! It has a button that will lock the center diff. I know because I've driven it on a beach where a locked center diff is critical to mobility in the soft South Jersey sand. I'm not lying to you. I do understand the topic at hand very well. Much better than you think. But hey, you know me better than I know me, huh?

Syndil

Jstas wrote: »

So then I guess the locking button on my dashboard doesn't exist? ...

From the C&D article:

Contrary to what you'll be told by the dashboard markings ... the Escape's Control Trac II system does not offer fully locked four-wheel drive.

Jstas wrote: »

It has a button that will lock the center diff. I know because I've driven it on a beach where a locked center diff is critical to mobility in the soft South Jersey sand. I'm not lying to you. I do understand the topic at hand very well. Much better than you think.

I don't believe you are intentionally lying to me, only that you are unable to accept the possibility--or in this case, certainty--that you are wrong, since you're still claiming that a) it has a center diff and b) that you can lock it.

As you failed to comprehend (again) from reading the C&D article, when you switch the 4WD mode to "on," the RBC does not engage the primary clutch pack, thereby locking the rear axle to the front, which is obviously what you are assuming. Instead it engages a secondary clutch pack, which forces the primary clutch pack to engage immediately when front wheel spin occurs, instead of slowly working up to engaging the primary clutch pack as it does in "auto" mode, as the viscous fluid heats up and the pressure gradually forces the primary clutch pack to engage. But the end result is the same: You cannot lock the front and rear axles; they will only be locked after the front wheels have already lost traction. One method simply takes less time than the other.

As for the rest of your diatribe, don't flatter yourself. Hate you? I don't even know you, nor do I care to. But that is exactly the sort of reply expected to see: a lot of off-topic flotsam and jetsam, the forum equivalent covering your ears and shouting "la, la, la, la, la!" during an argument. I will only admit I have a penchant for correctness that borders on obsession, so if you are often wrong about things, then you will likely hear more from me than someone who is not.

I've learned to keep out of subjective discussions, which, on an audio forum usually means I have very little to say, but if you really want to talk about the particulars of 4WD on an audio forum, I'll definitely be drawn in when I see something incorrect.

Syndil

F1nut wrote: »

So, now you've gone from definition to labeling. Too funny!

"Labeling," "definition," take your pick. Doesn't matter either way. There is no industry standard on how to label vehicles as either AWD or 4WD, because there is no industry-standard definition for AWD or 4WD. To a vehicle manufacturer, those are little more than marketing terms to be used however they feel like using them. This is exactly why Ford is able to stamp 4WD on an AWD vehicle--because they can, and they think it will help it to sell better.

F1nut

You know what cracks me up? These discussions you get involved with, in which the subject matter is completely above your knowledge level, you always go for the links to try and save face. Ummmm...yeah, it isn't working.

I will say this tho....I'm sure you know a lot more about 4x4's and AWD vehicles than you did yesterday, so that's a good thing. Now, go out and get those parts in your rust bucket moving. Happy trails.......

Syndil

F1nut wrote: »

You know what cracks me up? These discussions you get involved with, in which the subject matter is completely above your knowledge level, you always go for the links to try and save face. Ummmm...yeah, it isn't working.

I post links from authorities that support my claims, instead of just arbitrarily claiming that I know things because of my past experience, or promising that I'm not lying. I suggest you give it a try some time... That is, when you're not wrong and you can find an authority to back you up.

Drenis

Syndil wrote: »

I post links from authorities that support my claims, instead of just arbitrarily claiming that I know things because of my past experience, or promising that I'm not lying. I suggest you give it a try some time... That is, when you're not wrong and you can find an authority to back you up.

You guys might as well just whip 'em out on the table to see who's bigger. :rolleyes:

Honestly... debates over 4x4 vs awd. Do they both allow you to attain the same result? YES!

shawn474

*******yawn*******

Drenis wrote: »

You guys might as well just whip 'em out on the table to see who's bigger. :rolleyes:

Honestly... debates over 4x4 vs awd. Do they both allow you to attain the same result? YES!

Agree 100%; this reminds me of the Pee Wee Herman "I know you are but what am I". Grow up and let it go guys.

BeefJerky

shawn474 wrote: »

*******yawn*******



Agree 100%; this reminds me of the Pee Wee Herman "I know you are but what am I". Grow up and let it go guys.

At least Pee Wee's Playhouse was entertaining. Though, Jstas does remind me a bit of the character Knucklehead from the show.

F1nut

Syndil wrote: »

I post links from authorities that support my claims, instead of just arbitrarily claiming that I know things because of my past experience, or promising that I'm not lying. I suggest you give it a try some time... That is, when you're not wrong and you can find an authority to back you up.

It's simple you moron. If it has a lo range, it's 4WD. If it doesn't, it's AWD.

Syndil

F1nut wrote: »

It's simple you moron. If it has a lo range, it's 4WD. If it doesn't, it's AWD.

Just for the sake of argument, let's pretend that I agree with that. That still does not make it an industry standard, which was your erroneous claim. And even by that definition, the Escape is AWD, despite Ford calling it 4WD. Case closed.

steveinaz

If the vehicle doesn't have a locker, it's not true 4 wheel drive. Example, the Jeep Quadra Trac I is AWD. Quadra Trac II adds a 4-low locker for true 4 wheel drive. When 4-low isn't selected, all Jeeps (except of course 2 wheel drive versions) are in AWD mode--they no longer offer a "2-wheel drive high" option. If you have "selec-terrain" you can select "sport" mode, but this is still AWD, it just bias' traction 80%-20% (rear/front) for a more 2-wheel drive feel.

Joe08867

If it has a locking center diff it is 4 wheel drive. All wheel would have sensors to send power to the appropriate wheel. Like on a Range Rover, but once you lock the diff or diffs it is 4 wheel drive. Sorry Syndil, you are wrong. You can post 40 more article and you will still be wrong.

Syndil

Joe08867 wrote: »

If it has a locking center diff it is 4 wheel drive.

I think you came a little late to the thread, my friend, as that is what I have been saying from the start. So if I'm wrong, I guess you are too!

gdb

beatdeadhorse.gif You say tomato...I say f@%k you! Take heed, 4WD IS a misnomer unless all 4 wheels are driven simultaneously, most "4WDs" only have 2 wheels driven at a time, occaisionally 3 (w/rear locker diff.), almost never 4, which is usually reserved for the rock crawling crowd. Enjoy your respective vehicles by whatever term you choose to use for their "drives". I love my beater 88 K-2500 (open diff. front and rear):cheesygrin:

HHStuart

Danny Tse wrote: »

The all-new Subaru Impreza is rated at 36 mpg highway with AWD.

I think the new Subaru Legacy is also supposed to get 36 mpg.
My wife loves her Subaru.