Windows XP Pro Academic edition

snow

Here is a question for all you computer guru's is it ok to sell a copy of Windows XP Pro Academic edition? From what little I know about it is that schools or students are the only ones that are supposed to use this. It is an open copy so most likely installed on a PC at one time or another, not sure if it can be used on two PC's or not.

REGARDS SNOW

mdaudioguy

I've bought student editions in stores several times. I've always had students living at home, so I believe I was eligible. However, I never had to prove so at any point. I guess you "certify" that you're eligible when you activate it. XP doesn't have much time left anyhow, so I doubt MS cares much.

snow

Ok thanks off to the FM area then :biggrin:



REGARDS SNOW

Serendipity

You can't LEGALLY install XP on two machines / twice, Product Activation will prevent that from happening...

That being said, it's your call.

Jstas

Serendipity wrote: »

You can't LEGALLY install XP on two machines / twice, Product Activation will prevent that from happening...

That being said, it's your call.

XP Doesn't need to be activated to work.

Windows Server 2003 needs to be activated and XP needs to be activated if you instal the MGA BS with Service Pack 3.

mdaudioguy

I seem to remember having to call when I reinstalled after replacing a MB once or twice. Isn't there something with verification of the product license key?

Jstas

mdaudioguy wrote: »

I seem to remember having to call when I reinstalled after replacing a MB once or twice. Isn't there something with verification of the product license key?

If you have MGA and Service Pack 3. Was I not clear the first time?

MGA is not included in Windows XP. It wasn't used in the consumer level products, only the commercial level stuff like Windows 2003.

MGA for XP is downloaded via Windows Update. it also breaks alot of stuff in XP. Only the very last versions of XP came with MGA on it and even then, you didn't get media, you got a download key. You had to order media for an extra $30.

Trust me, I've had many fun experiences with Windows XP. When I started college, they were forcing us to use Macs. I had a PC at home. So I had a $3500 Mac that never worked, always a "Sad Mac" face. It made a better doorstop than a computer. So in order to do my work, I grabbed a student version of XP. Over the years, in order to complete school work without spending hours upon hours in a student lab, I ended up with a suite of 7 machines running a distributed database system to mimic what I had at my co-op job so I could complete my senior project. All of them used that same version of XP. It was never registered and it was never verified. The original machine is still running and I graduated 12 years ago. The other machines have since met their demise and hardware was so old it wasn't worth repairing. I don't have media for my system so if I have to repair it, I have to use a cracked copy to get the appropriate files since my Student license key doesn't work with a full-retail disc.

BTW, MGA = Microsoft Genuine Advantage

dudeinaroom

You can use xp for 30 days without activation. After the 30 days if it is not activated, it will tell you to do it and will not let you log in if you don't. You can install it on as may computers as you want as long as you purchase an activation key for each computer. If you have a valid activation key and the disk gets destroyed MS will send you a new copy(if they have any left).

mdaudioguy

What does this mean, then? Surely I am wrong, Jstas, but what am I confusing here?

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307890

Jstas

dudeinaroom wrote: »

You can use xp for 30 days without activation. After the 30 days if it is not activated, it will tell you to do it and will not let you log in if you don't. You can install it on as may computers as you want as long as you purchase an activation key for each computer. If you have a valid activation key and the disk gets destroyed MS will send you a new copy(if they have any left).

Only if you have MGA installed.

If you have XP SP2 or earlier, you do not have MGA and Windows Update will download and install it before you can get any updates. Otherwise, XP only needs the valid Product Code from the packaging to install. There is no time limit, there isn't even a requirement to register it if you are pre-SP3.

Jstas

mdaudioguy wrote: »

What does this mean, then? Surely I am wrong, Jstas, but what am I confusing here?

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307890

Maybe you missed this big part in BOLD.

To continue receiving security updates for Windows, make sure you're running Windows XP with Service Pack 3 (SP3).

Any OS from Microsoft for the consumer level prior to Windows XP SP3 is not supported. So when they say "Windows XP" they mean Windows XP Service Pack 3. All other versions are now defunct as per the End of life announcements. You need SP3 to get any support and even at that, you are only going to get security fixes. Nothing else.

If you have new media that says SP3 on it then you have MGA by default when you install. If you have standard XP or XP SP2, then you need to install SP3 to get support. To get SP3, you need to install MGA which Windows Update will download after it tells you Windows Update is no longer supported and you need to upgrade to whatever it is they call it now. You'll get a new downloader which will not work until you install MGA. Once you install MGA, pray to God you don't get screwed because my dad had a valid Windows XP SP2 key on his computer, downloaded and installed MGA which then it told him that his key was invalid. He called M$ and complained and they said "Oh well, TFB. Pay up." Even though he had the product code and verification key that came on the original documentation.


If you have Windows XP SP2, you can install it on as many systems as you want. Should you? No, it's a violation of your EULA. But, XP SP2 does not require registration or activation so even if you register your original system with it, any further systems you want to install it on, you can as long as you don't register it. You won't be able to get any updates but, if you're at a point where you know 6 different ways from Sunday to circumvent M$'s security and licensing "features" then you probably don't care about security updates either. Oh, if you do go that route (which I am not necessarily endorsing), don't visit any Microsoft sites either. M$ has java apps that will check your licensing and can mark you your system as non-compliant. That doesn't matter though, there isn't anything useful at the Microsoft sites anyway.

nguyendot

Academic editions are generally NFR...check the license.

nadams

Was the license sticker applied to the PC case? If so, it's not transferrable to another PC.

snow

nadams wrote: »

Was the license sticker applied to the PC case? If so, it's not transferrable to another PC.

If you are talking about the key code sticker, it is still attached to the back of the package. It seems there are varied oppinions on whether this can be used succesfully, in any case since John has decided to purchase this I have told him there is a money back warranty if for any reason it doesnt work for him. It does say don't lose this product key you must use it every time that you install this software so thereby implying that it can be installed more than once.



REGARDS SNOW

Syndil

Sticker does not matter.

What you are selling when you sell software is not the disc or the sticker, it is the right to use the software. In order for the sale to be legal, the license key for the software being sold must NOT currently be in use by any machine.

And contrary Jstas' claims, all copies of Windows must be activated. MGA applies to the ability to download updates after the OS has been installed and activated, but all versions of Windows XP are subject to activation. Most people never experience the activation process because the OEM version that comes pre-installed on computers that they buy has already been activated by the manufacturer. But a person installing a copy of Windows from disc will be subject to activation.

As for the academic version, there is no difference between an academic license and a full retail license other than the discounted price.

Yes, there are ways around activation, just as there are ways to pirate software. The question is not whether or not it is possible, it is whether or not it is legal. The simple answer is that if the copy of Windows being sold is still installed on a machine that is still in use, then it cannot legally be sold.

snow

Syndil wrote: »

Sticker does not matter.

What you are selling when you sell software is not the disc or the sticker, it is the right to use the software. In order for the sale to be legal, the license key for the software being sold must NOT currently be in use by any machine.

And contrary Jstas' claims, all copies of Windows must be activated. MGA applies to the ability to download updates after the OS has been installed and activated, but all versions of Windows XP are subject to activation. Most people never experience the activation process because the OEM version that comes pre-installed on computers that they buy has already been activated by the manufacturer. But a person installing a copy of Windows from disc will be subject to activation.

As for the academic version, there is no difference between an academic license and a full retail license other than the discounted price.

Yes, there are ways around activation, just as there are ways to pirate software. The question is not whether or not it is possible, it is whether or not it is legal. The simple answer is that if the copy of Windows being sold is still installed on a machine that is still in use, then it cannot legally be sold.

Well if it is in use by another PC than and he cant use it I suppose that John will discover this and ask for his money back, as far as it being illegal to sell then I guess i'm a criminal because the dirty deed has been done. I suspect it may be a violation of their EULA if used improperly but I doubt there is any law on the books stating a crime has been committed if installed on two machines at the same time or if one sells the original CD. I would believe that making and selling copies may be illegal though, it in my humble oppinion should be no different than me buying a music CD then reselling it later on since the producer has all'ready been paid for their product.



REGARDS SNOW

Syndil

Intellectual property laws are quite clear. With a music CD, it is illegal to make a copy of the CD, keep the copy for yourself, and then sell the original. The law does not distinguish between this and selling the copy, keeping the original for yourself. Either way the creator of the IP has been cheated out of a sale.

To put it another way, the person making the copy has committed a theft in the amount of the value of the IP from the creator of the IP. So it is not a victimless crime. And if caught, that's federal prison time. Yes, I'm sure it happens every day, but only because the risk of being caught is extremely low.

The same concept applies to the software. If you still have the software installed and attempt to resell the license used to install it, that is indeed a crime. In this case it would be a theft from Microsoft in the amount of the retail price of a Windows XP license.

Also, if the purchaser of said software knows that a copy of the software is still in use, then a lawyer could easily argue that he knowingly received stolen goods.

snow

Syndil wrote: »

Intellectual property laws are quite clear. With a music CD, it is illegal to make a copy of the CD, keep the copy for yourself, and then sell the original. The law does not distinguish between this and selling the copy, keeping the original for yourself. Either way the creator of the IP has been cheated out of a sale.

To put it another way, the person making the copy has committed a theft in the amount of the value of the IP from the creator of the IP. So it is not a victimless crime. And if caught, that's federal prison time. Yes, I'm sure it happens every day, but only because the risk of being caught is extremely low.

The same concept applies to the software. If you still have the software installed and attempt to resell the license used to install it, that is indeed a crime. In this case it would be a theft from Microsoft in the amount of the retail price of a Windows XP license.

Also, if the purchaser of said software knows that a copy of the software is still in use, then a lawyer could easily argue that he knowingly received stolen goods.

This may be so but it's nuts if correct, how anyone can claim they were cheated out of a sale for a used product is beyond me. Once sold that product should be no different than any other used product, it would be no different than buying a new car then saying you cant resell it once you have used it just nuts, if so then you truly never owned the product to begin with. If you own something then it should be your right to resell burn it piss on it give it away or anything else you wish with it. I dont have the software installed and I have no idea if it has ever been installed previously, but since it is an open box one would assume it has been, hence the money back warranty. I am guessing that once John installs it if it is currently installed on another PC someplace that a pop up will appear saying that it cant be used and if so then he will get his money back.



REGARDS SNOW

dudeinaroom

Jstas wrote: »

Only if you have MGA installed.

If you have XP SP2 or earlier, you do not have MGA and Windows Update will download and install it before you can get any updates. Otherwise, XP only needs the valid Product Code from the packaging to install. There is no time limit, there isn't even a requirement to register it if you are pre-SP3.

All I know is when I installed my first copy of XP in 2002 I had 30 days to activate it. I was on dial up at that so I put it off as long as possible. After the 30 days I had to activate it to be able to log, so I had to call and activated it over the phone as my connection would time out. It did not show the genuine advantage box like the versions with sp2, just a generic box that said I had to activate it. Just my experience with it.

WilliamM2

I am guessing that once John installs it if it is currently installed on another PC someplace that a pop up will appear saying that it cant be used and if so then he will get his money back.

No, if it's installed on another PC, and it's been over 180 days since activation, it will still let you activate it on a new computer. Windows activation isn't fool proof. It would still be illegal though.

WilliamM2

dudeinaroom wrote: »

All I know is when I installed my first copy of XP in 2002 I had 30 days to activate it.

That's correct, all versions of XP have always required activation, unless pre-activated by the manufacturer of the PC.

snow

WilliamM2 wrote: »

No, if it's installed on another PC, and it's been over 180 days since activation, it will still let you activate it on a new computer. Windows activation isn't fool proof. It would still be illegal though.

How would one know whether he/she had a "legal" copy of XP unless it was in a still shrink wrapped container, and even then I suppose one could shrink wrap an old container to make it appear as new. Also if I was to give this copy away would it still be a crime if it was previously installed and activated or just illegal if I sold it? And if MS cant determine if the product has been previously installed and they allow you to use it how can they charge anyone with a crime since they allowed the activation?

The whole thing get's sillier by the minute if you ask me I understand the concept of making and selling a bootleg CD as being against the law but selling a original CD that may or may not have a valid activation code to be a crime is ludicrous to me if anything the only crime committed would be one of stupidity. If buying a CD that is used is a crime if the previous owner made a copy to use in his car or burned a copy to his PC then Ebay and Amazon and many other sites have been party to countless crimes. I would think that if a code wasnt valid for use then one would have to purchase another license to use the CD but it certainly should not be a crime to sell the CD itself.



REGARDS SNOW

Jstas

dudeinaroom wrote: »

All I know is when I installed my first copy of XP in 2002 I had 30 days to activate it. I was on dial up at that so I put it off as long as possible. After the 30 days I had to activate it to be able to log, so I had to call and activated it over the phone as my connection would time out. It did not show the genuine advantage box like the versions with sp2, just a generic box that said I had to activate it. Just my experience with it.

That's activating to get the product key verified. It's not MGA. There is no other information taken except the product key for the activation. It ensures you have a valid product key and was in response to the myriad of generators out there to circumvent the product key in earlier versions of Windows.

But you don't have to activate it. You can turn that off in the registry. And yes, I know how to do it and no I'm not going to tell you. But that wasn't even standard in SP2. It came later as an update. It's part of System Update and you can turn it off through Safe Mode or by booting directly in to a registry editor and changing the value of the key. The cracks were found and socialized in either executable patch sets or directions on how to do the "fixes" manually before XP ever went to the public. They are still out there too. You can search for them on Google. In October of 2001 ArsTechnica wrote about the crack and Bit Arts in the UK tested it and found it completely successful. Microsoft has been unable to prevent that from happening without a rewrite of XP. In Vista and going forward, it is difficult to get past the product activation because it's now part of the MGA software. But they didn't officially get MGA/WGA until 2008 with Vistas' 1st service pack and 2003 had it only for R2 in a separate install package. However, if you know where to go, you can still get past the product activation by using one of the stolen group license numbers. Group licenses do not require activation.

The only legal way to get a non-activation license without a group license is to get in to the MSDN program and get a developer license. But that comes with restrictions. You have to be active so Microsoft can exploit your hard work to over charge for their OS otherwise, they revoke your license and you're SOL.

Oh and Windows Genuine Advantage or Microsoft Genuine Advantage (for non OS related products like MS Office or ForeFront) did not come out with a stable release until June of 2009. It became mandatory for use on all supported OS'ed from Microsoft in 2005. You can get around the install on XP though. However, in 2005, it was so buggy that it was literally destroying people's computers and Service Pack 3 was avoided like the plague because it was **** up people's systems so bad due to the WGA not working right. So Any version of Windows XP before SP3 did not have and doesn't have Windows Genuine Advantage in it. It had to be downloaded as a separate update and it was optional until 2005. You need to upgrade to Windows XP Service Pack 3 to have WGA/MGA native which had a very buggy version of WGA/MGA released in April of 2008 along with the release of SP3 on the MS Download Center.

And yeah, I bought snow's copy because, for one thing, the license is not transferable. That means you can't install it somewhere else. But I don't need that license, I have a license. It's running on a server I have at home. I do not have media. I can't get media from Microsoft anymore and the support is lackluster at best. When something goes wrong, I spend hours hacking away at things to get stuff back to normal where as if I had the media, I could easily fix my problems by copying the appropriate files across and replacing the broken ones. My license will work with that media. Whether I want to crack it and get around the Microsoft protections to use on another system is my business. But everything I have said is correct. I think some if not all of you who are telling me I am incorrect or questioning things are not clear on what you are actually trying to say and confusing terms.


And snow, no, you do not own the software. You don't even own the license. According to Microsoft, the only thing you own is the physical media. Everything else is "leased" in a sense. If you actually read through the EULA, you'll see how screwed you actually are. Even the "free software" champions like Ubuntu have you by the short hairs on the EULA.

You can use the license in another machine but the machine that had the license previously must have the license uninstalled on the old system before you can use it on the new system. However, unlike WGA/MGA, Windows Product Activation has no checks on that unless you change hardware and then you will have to reactivate. And even then, things like a memory upgrade or adding a secondary hard drive will not trigger a reactivation. But replacing a graphics card or losing your root drive will. So unless you have a major hardware failure, you can install and register that license on multiple machines and the activation will supersede the old registration and keep doing so until you hit your limit on activation. There's nothing to stop you except your own conscience.

The licensing terms are oppressive. Part of the reason they are so long is because they know no one will read it all and sign it anyway. And honestly, what are your options otherwise? You don't have much of a choice. Why do you think there is so much piracy? A good chunk of it is the "screw the man" mentality but the larger chunk is made up of those who can't afford to pay the "leasing fees" but have a need and those who feel the EULAs are excessive and are protesting through civil disobedience.


Besides, XP is dead. Microsoft is not developing it and only performing reactive security fixes. In 2014, unless you're a volume license user with a downgraded license, you're dead in the water with no support from Microsoft. If you're one of the aforementioned users, you can get support on a fee based scale until 2020. But if you are a volume user on a non-downgraded license, your support ends withe the rest of us in 2014. It was supposed to be this year but Vista was such a miserable flop that M$ had no choice but to extend XP's life.

After 2014, M$ won't care what you do with XP. So if you want to use it and you need to upgrade hardware or replace hardware, better learn those cracks 'cause you'll never get back in to your system again if you have WGA installed and M$ will not help you. They will gladly sell you a new copy of Windows 7 though...for about $600.

Jstas

WilliamM2 wrote: »

That's correct, all versions of XP have always required activation, unless pre-activated by the manufacturer of the PC.

There is no such thing as "pre-activation". Volume licensees like Dell have activation turned off.

That option is what allows a non-volume licensed copy to be cracked and activation removed. You can also remove the limit on the number of processors XP will support.

But that's useless since XP is not multi-threaded. It can use a box with multiple processors, physical or virtual, it's just not going to break down processes to utilize all cores for the instruction set. It treats each hyper-thread as an individual processor and it'll assign a job to each core and that core will work that job until complete. You're better off just giving XP the hottest processor and memory controller it can support.

WilliamM2

snow wrote: »

How would one know whether he/she had a "legal" copy of XP unless it was in a still shrink wrapped container, and even then I suppose one could shrink wrap an old container to make it appear as new.

If you have the genuine COA, or one stuck on the PC case, then your copy is legal. It's the previous install that needs to be removed, it no longer has the COA with it.

The likelyhood of getting caught is tiny, but if you don't have a COA, you don't have a legit copy. Simple.

WilliamM2

Jstas wrote: »

There is no such thing as "pre-activation". Volume licensees like Dell have activation turned off.

Really? I work for a small OEM, we do not have volume licensing, too small. Every PC we send out is already activated, and we are not the only company that does this.

nguyendot

result is same ...

Dell does activate, but internally. It reads the license key out of the bios and then activates. If you break down the BIOS in any Dell from XP up, you'll see a generic Dell activation key for every OS that model supports.
Hence why you can grab a Dell windows 7 disc of any flavor and it will install on a supported machine, with no checks.

Syndil

snow wrote: »

This may be so but it's nuts if correct, how anyone can claim they were cheated out of a sale for a used product is beyond me. Once sold that product should be no different than any other used product, it would be no different than buying a new car then saying you cant resell it once you have used it just nuts, if so then you truly never owned the product to begin with.

The difference is that, when you sell a used car, you are not able to keep a copy of the car with you.


With IP, no one ever truly owns the IP except for the creator of the IP. Like I said earler, when you buy a copy of Windows from Microsoft, Microsoft is not selling you the disc or the sticker or any of that. They are selling you the right to use the software that they own.

Same concept applies to music. For example, when you buy a Rolling Stones CD, you don't own the music on the CD, you own the right to play the music on the CD. But if you were to make a copy of the CD and give it to someone, then you have given that person the ability to play the music on the CD without them ever having purchased the rights to do so, and a crime has been committed.

That is not to say you cannot sell a used CD. If you have not made a copy of it, then when you sell it, you lose the ability to play the music for yourself. In that case, you would be selling your rights to play the music along with the CD, and the sale would be legal.


It can be a difficult concept to wrap your head around, but it gets a whoooole lot easier if you put yourself in the shoes of the musician (or software creator). If you spend all that time and effort creating something that people enjoy, then you deserve to be compensated every time someone enjoys it. If someone is making copies of your creation and handing them out--or worse, selling them--then they are profiting from your creation without you seeing a dime.

I'm no big-time artist myself, but I have been recorded. It's a lot easier to see what a problem this is from this side of the fence. Musicians should not be forced to be charitable. No one else is forced to give the products of their labor away for free. Even prisoners get paid for the work they do in prison.


With software it's a little bit more complex since there are sometimes licensing controls built in to the software. With Windows, for example, it is not technically illegal to make copies of your Windows CD and hand them out. Why? Because people can't use the Windows on the CD without a license code. If you hand out copies of your license code along with the CD, then that's a different story.

But if jstas purchased the CD just for the media, then that is fine. In this case, he has already purchased the right to use the software from Microsoft, and he will be using his own license key. He just needs the disc to perform the reinstallation. Since MS was not cheated out of a sale, no crime has been committed.

Jstas

WilliamM2 wrote: »

Really? I work for a small OEM, we do not have volume licensing, too small. Every PC we send out is already activated, and we are not the only company that does this.

Really? I've worked for small outfits but most of my experience is managing corporate enterprise level environments for massive corporations where we have volume licensing. There is no such thing as "pre-activation". The system gets the key from a local store like, say, the BIOS ROM or another super double secret spot Microsoft stuffs it. The key contains coded info that tell Windows if it needs to contact the mother ship for permission to run in one form or another. That then looks at the check sum on the installation and determines if the install came from a retail/non-volume product key or a volume license product key. If it came from a volume license and the code matches, it sets the activation registry key to activated. No need to contact the mother ship. If it didn't come from a volume license then even if you have a volume license key, it'll still tell you that you have to activate it.

snow

Syndil wrote: »

The difference is that, when you sell a used car, you are not able to keep a copy of the car with you.


With IP, no one ever truly owns the IP except for the creator of the IP. Like I said earler, when you buy a copy of Windows from Microsoft, Microsoft is not selling you the disc or the sticker or any of that. They are selling you the right to use the software that they own.

Same concept applies to music. For example, when you buy a Rolling Stones CD, you don't own the music on the CD, you own the right to play the music on the CD. But if you were to make a copy of the CD and give it to someone, then you have given that person the ability to play the music on the CD without them ever having purchased the rights to do so, and a crime has been committed.

That is not to say you cannot sell a used CD. If you have not made a copy of it, then when you sell it, you lose the ability to play the music for yourself. In that case, you would be selling your rights to play the music along with the CD, and the sale would be legal.


It can be a difficult concept to wrap your head around, but it gets a whoooole lot easier if you put yourself in the shoes of the musician (or software creator). If you spend all that time and effort creating something that people enjoy, then you deserve to be compensated every time someone enjoys it. If someone is making copies of your creation and handing them out--or worse, selling them--then they are profiting from your creation without you seeing a dime.

I'm no big-time artist myself, but I have been recorded. It's a lot easier to see what a problem this is from this side of the fence. Musicians should not be forced to be charitable. No one else is forced to give the products of their labor away for free. Even prisoners get paid for the work they do in prison.


With software it's a little bit more complex since there are sometimes licensing controls built in to the software. With Windows, for example, it is not technically illegal to make copies of your Windows CD and hand them out. Why? Because people can't use the Windows on the CD without a license code. If you hand out copies of your license code along with the CD, then that's a different story.

But if jstas purchased the CD just for the media, then that is fine. In this case, he has already purchased the right to use the software from Microsoft, and he will be using his own license key. He just needs the disc to perform the reinstallation. Since MS was not cheated out of a sale, no crime has been committed.

So what your saying here is that if I sell the CD itself without the license code then it is perfectly legal, only that if I sell it with the code attached that is illegal. Since that is the case and John doesn't need a code since he has one he bought previously then I will remove the code and everyone is happy.

I had just assumed that since there was no way of knowing for sure whether or not the code had been used before that if he attempted to activate it and the code was in use it would simply be denied and that he would have to purchase one from MS.





REGARDS SNOW

Syndil

snow wrote: »

So what your saying here is that if I sell the CD itself without the license code then it is perfectly legal, only that if I sell it with the code attached that is illegal.

Yup, that's the gist of it.