Sad day for a SVS fan...

VR3
VR3 Posts: 28,641
edited January 2012 in Subwoofer Hookup & Bass Management
I like to check SVS's site for updates periodically - see the new products and today I just feel the change of the new operations -

Gone are the "bang for the buck" subwoofers and that "USA made" product line...

The offerings look cheap in comparison and more mainstream than before....
- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
Post edited by VR3 on
· Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
«1

Comments

  • kevhed72
    kevhed72 Posts: 5,054
    edited January 2012
    All of the subs definitely look smaller...as if they decided they want all their subs to be in small of a footprint as possible.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,641
    edited January 2012
    Yeah I just dont dig it...

    They are now more expensive than Elemental and Epik - I would imagine the performance is no better than before...

    What a shame...
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Drenis
    Drenis Posts: 2,871
    edited January 2012
    I want to buy some sealed subs for my setup, but I don't care for SVS's offerings... meh
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • codyc1ark
    codyc1ark Posts: 2,532
    edited January 2012
    I've been considering adding a second or going with this - http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15h.html - looks like a healthy beast, buuuuut the f113 is very tempting, tax season is right around the corner!
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Conradicles
    Conradicles Posts: 6,081
    edited January 2012
    VMPS is still alive and kicking! I'm looking to get another...
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,590
    edited January 2012
    When Monster bought them or became "partners" with them it was the beginning of the end IMHO.
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,641
    edited January 2012
    I had no idea Monster was associated with the buy out - now I dislike them even more than I did yesterday...

    Suh-weet!
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited January 2012
    SVS is not affiliated in any manner with Monster Cable. Our President left a position at Monster Cable to come to SVS.

    None of our subwoofers are smaller, save for the PB12-NSD, which is 2" less deep than the previous version - because the most common request from our customers was to downsize this model a bit. Despite the small loss of Vb, the overall performance of this model has actually improved.

    All of the other SVS models are essentially unchanged, except for (relatively) new DSP amplification in all models, and objective performance of all models is better than their respective predecessors.
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen (emullen@svsound.com)
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Conradicles
    Conradicles Posts: 6,081
    edited January 2012
    Dr. Spec came out da' bushes. Thank you for the clarification Sir.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited January 2012
    Conradicles wrote: »
    Dr. Spec came out da' bushes. Thank you for the clarification Sir.

    You are most welcome. :cool:

    I don't post here much anymore, because I work for a competing brand and respect Polk's boundaries. With that said, it's nice to see most of the old crew still around, and my LSi-7's are playing Brothers In Arms my office as I type this and still sound great.
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen (emullen@svsound.com)
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,590
    edited January 2012
    And my apologies for the mis information.
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited January 2012
    EndersShadow wrote: »
    And my apologies for the mis information.

    Thanks and no worries! That's why I posted - to clear-up the Monster Cable affiliation issue.
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen (emullen@svsound.com)
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • ken brydson
    ken brydson Posts: 8,759
    edited January 2012
    Dr. Spec wrote: »
    Thanks and no worries! That's why I posted - to clear-up the Monster Cable affiliation issue.

    Glad to hear from you Doc. Still running my 25-31PC+ you recommended years ago and even offered to pay return shipping if I didn't like it. Me LIKEY!!!:smile:
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,489
    edited January 2012
    If anything, it looks to me like the company has matured a whole lot. No more massive enclosures sprayed with truck bed liner, or whatever that stuff was on the old subs I had from SVS. I'm kind of surprised to see the cylinder subs still being made, but understand their place in the market. I'm a big fan of sealed subs, and have had my eye on the SB-13 Plus for two channel use.

    Good to see you doing well in the business, Ed!
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited January 2012
    Doc's first posts in almost three years... somehow I feel responsible... :p
    Dr. Spec wrote: »
    I don't post here much anymore, because I work for a competing brand and respect Polk's boundaries. With that said, it's nice to see most of the old crew still around, and my LSi-7's are playing Brothers In Arms my office as I type this and still sound great.
    ... and still surrounding yourself with slightly dinged f/x1000's I assume...

    But then there's that "not-exactly-under-the-radar" sig...
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • rubin
    rubin Posts: 565
    edited January 2012
    My two pc ultra 13's (purchased in 2010) still impress me as much as they did the first day .
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • kuntasensei
    kuntasensei Posts: 3,263
    edited January 2012
    Still rockin' a 20-39CS+ from when they first came out, though I upgraded the driver to the dB12.3. One of the best purchases I've made for my system, and if I felt the need to upgrade, an Ultra would be first on my list.
    Equipment list:
    Onkyo TX-NR3010 9.2 AVR
    Emotiva XPA-3 amp
    Polk RTi70 mains, CSi40 center, RTi38 surrounds, RTi28 rears and heights
    SVS 20-39CS+ subwoofer powered by Crown XLS1500
    Oppo BDP-93 Blu-ray player
    DarbeeVision DVP5000 video processor
    Epson 8500UB 1080p projector
    Elite Screens Sable 120" CineWhite screen
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • danz1906
    danz1906 Posts: 5,144
    edited January 2012
    My PB-13 Ultra is still a Keeper:biggrin:
    Linn AV5140 fronts
    Linn AV5120 Center
    Linn AV5140 Rears
    M&K MX-70 Sub for Music
    Odyssey Mono-Blocs
    SVS Ultra-13 Gloss Black:D
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • MADGSF
    MADGSF Posts: 603
    edited January 2012
    Still feeling, literally, the PC Ultra love here.
    AVR: Elite VSX-21TXH
    Amplifier: B&K 7250 Series ii
    Misc: Velodyne SMS-1
    Mains: RTi-10
    Center: CSi-5
    Rear: Boston DSi460
    Sub: SVS PC-Ultra
    TV: Panasonic TC-P58V10
    DVD: Panasonic DMP-BD60K
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Serendipity
    Serendipity Posts: 6,975
    edited January 2012
    Not sure about SVS's current offerings, but their older subs for some reason sounded like constant thunder to me. As an avid listener of Jazz, Classical, and Opera, I always found SVS subs to be not very musical. On Sarah Brightman's Timeless, it felt like the bass notes were over-exaggerated and there was too much "slam". Would be good for rock music and movies though.

    That being said, SVS's newer sealed offerings interest me more. If they could lower the price back to that of yesteryear and keep the performance, that would be great.
    polkaudio RT35 Bookshelves
    polkaudio 255c-RT Inwalls
    polkaudio DSWPro550WI
    polkaudio XRT12 XM Tuner
    polkaudio RM6750 5.1

    Front projection, 2 channel, car audio... life is good!
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited January 2012
    Tour2ma wrote: »
    Doc's first posts in almost three years... somehow I feel responsible... :p


    ... and still surrounding yourself with slightly dinged f/x1000's I assume...

    But then there's that "not-exactly-under-the-radar" sig...

    Sold long ago to a fellow Club Polk forum member. Still missed - awesome surround.
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen (emullen@svsound.com)
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited January 2012
    Serendipity wrote: »
    Not sure about SVS's current offerings, but their older subs for some reason sounded like constant thunder to me. As an avid listener of Jazz, Classical, and Opera, I always found SVS subs to be not very musical. On Sarah Brightman's Timeless, it felt like the bass notes were over-exaggerated and there was too much "slam". Would be good for rock music and movies though.

    That being said, SVS's newer sealed offerings interest me more. If they could lower the price back to that of yesteryear and keep the performance, that would be great.

    Often times poor subwoofer performance on music is a function of a rising deep bass response due to room gain, and also running the subs a bit too hot.

    Even if the subs are level-matched with the speakers, if their low-end is rising due to room gain, they will never sound 'right' and instead will tend to sound boomy, plodding, and bottom-heavy.

    The native FR of the SB13-Plus is designed to complement available room gain to the extent it is present. And for the vented Plus/Ultra subs which are flat to 20 Hz or deeper quasi-anechoic, the room gain compensation control can be used. Or if the AVR has Audyssey MultEQ, it will also EQ the subwoofer channel and lop-off any rising response due to room gain.

    Finally, if a single subwoofer is used in the system, it's very hard to avoid at least one major null in the subwoofer pass band, as measured at the listening position. Often these nulls will exist right in the heart of music bass country, which can really hurt the listener's subjective impression of the subwoofer's 'musicality'. Nulls can't be boosted, so the only way to ameliorate them is to experiment with subwoofer location and listening position to the extent possible, or add multiple subs to increase modal overlap/density in the room and fill-in those nulls.
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen (emullen@svsound.com)
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • thsmith
    thsmith Posts: 6,082
    edited January 2012
    ^^^^ Well said ^^^^
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited January 2012
    Dr. Spec wrote: »
    Finally, if a single subwoofer is used in the system, it's very hard to avoid at least one major null in the subwoofer pass band, as measured at the listening position. Often these nulls will exist right in the heart of music bass country, which can really hurt the listener's subjective impression of the subwoofer's 'musicality'. Nulls can't be boosted, so the only way to ameliorate them is to experiment with subwoofer location and listening position to the extent possible, or add multiple subs to increase modal overlap/density in the room and fill-in those nulls.
    So now with the advent of effective EQ software, employing two (or more) subs that are not co-located is actually a preferable approach?
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Conradicles
    Conradicles Posts: 6,081
    edited January 2012
    2 subs are always better than one. Usually 1 on each side behind the mains.

    Of course each room will vary, but this is the "best" approach to start with and then dial in the subs to the room.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Serendipity
    Serendipity Posts: 6,975
    edited January 2012
    Dr. Spec wrote: »
    Often times poor subwoofer performance on music is a function of a rising deep bass response due to room gain, and also running the subs a bit too hot.

    Even if the subs are level-matched with the speakers, if their low-end is rising due to room gain, they will never sound 'right' and instead will tend to sound boomy, plodding, and bottom-heavy.

    The native FR of the SB13-Plus is designed to complement available room gain to the extent it is present. And for the vented Plus/Ultra subs which are flat to 20 Hz or deeper quasi-anechoic, the room gain compensation control can be used. Or if the AVR has Audyssey MultEQ, it will also EQ the subwoofer channel and lop-off any rising response due to room gain.

    Finally, if a single subwoofer is used in the system, it's very hard to avoid at least one major null in the subwoofer pass band, as measured at the listening position. Often these nulls will exist right in the heart of music bass country, which can really hurt the listener's subjective impression of the subwoofer's 'musicality'. Nulls can't be boosted, so the only way to ameliorate them is to experiment with subwoofer location and listening position to the extent possible, or add multiple subs to increase modal overlap/density in the room and fill-in those nulls.

    At the SVS booth/hotel room in CES 2007, I felt that the subs there were a bit "hot." I commented on this while I was there in a constructive way. Every SVS I have heard in a Polk member's house also exhibited a similar sound characteristic. Would the sealed designs be better for Classical music and Jazz?
    polkaudio RT35 Bookshelves
    polkaudio 255c-RT Inwalls
    polkaudio DSWPro550WI
    polkaudio XRT12 XM Tuner
    polkaudio RM6750 5.1

    Front projection, 2 channel, car audio... life is good!
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited January 2012
    Doc,

    In addition to my Post #25 question I have to ask if Audyssey only EQ's for the single listening position where the mic was located?
    Conradicles wrote: »
    2 subs are always better than one. Usually 1 on each side behind the mains.

    Of course each room will vary, but this is the "best" approach to start with and then dial in the subs to the room.

    Oh contraire mon frere...

    Multiple deep bass generators were once the absolute bane of calibrating HT set-ups... especially when they were located away from each other. Not that it could not be done, but you'd more likely go crazy trying to "dial in" twin subs so they would work together. Thus the default solution was to co-locate, i.e., stack, them, if at all possible.
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited January 2012
    Tour2ma wrote: »
    Doc,

    In addition to my Post #25 question I have to ask if Audyssey only EQ's for the single listening position where the mic was located?

    That depends on the specific Audyssey product. Our (now discontinued) AS-EQ1 had the ability to EQ the subs independently or together. But it always independently set the level and distance regardless. I haven't noodled around with XT32 yet, but I believe most versions have dual sub capability, but I'm not sure how they are handled from an EQ standpoint.

    Generally the best results are obtained by EQ'ing the combined response of the subwoofers, because that is what you are hearing at the listening position. EQ'ing each sub independently doesn't take into account how their respective modal responses are interacting and working to fill in nulls, etc. As you know, a null can't be boosted, but peaks can be tamed. So dual subs will help fill in the nulls and provided a smoother FR at the listening position(s), and Audyssey will reduce the peaks.

    Todd Welti and Floyd Toole of Harman International fame have done ground-breaking research into how multiple subs interact in the room and where they should be placed for the best results to ameliorate nulls. These articles are available from the Harman website, or I can send them to anyone who asks - just email me.
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen (emullen@svsound.com)
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited January 2012
    Doc, you are subwoofer LEGEND. Good to see you here.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited January 2012
    ... as well as one of the all-time, nice-guy Forum members...
    Dr. Spec wrote: »
    Sold long ago to a fellow Club Polk forum member. Still missed - awesome surround.
    Just so happens that I might know where an extra pair are... :cool: ...if you're ever interested, just holler. Might even throw in delivery for a couple of those burgers (forget the place's name), a Genny Cream and a couple laps around the Jackrabbit.
    Dr. Spec wrote: »
    As you know, a null can't be boosted, but peaks can be tamed. So dual subs will help fill in the nulls and provided a smoother FR at the listening position(s), and Audyssey will reduce the peaks.

    Todd Welti and Floyd Toole of Harman International fame have done ground-breaking research into how multiple subs interact in the room and where they should be placed for the best results to ameliorate nulls. These articles are available from the Harman website, or I can send them to anyone who asks - just email me.
    Assuming facts not in evidence... Actually had to stop and think (hate it when that happens) for a second until... :idea:. Yup... can't boost to compensate for something that exists due to cancellation... just leads to increased reflections of the problematic frequency canceling its increased direct radiation yielding the exact same null.

    Thanks for the Harmon heads up. Found the white papers here: http://www.harman.com/EN-US/Pages/SearchResults.aspx?k=welti toole
    Also seem to be several more papers that either Welty published solo or with Allan Devantier.

    Thanks for dropping by Ed... Don't be a stranger and keep an eye out for the "Doc" signal...
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter