Why do the new Onkyo TX-NRx09 receivers sound so bad for music?

Serendipity

Picture says it all.

Within 15 minutes of plugging it up I had to turn it off. Harsh, bloated, fatiguing sound.

I was in 2ch Direct "Pure Audio" mode with DVD-Audio as the source.

Movie performance is pretty good though...

billbillw

Its been all downhill since the 705/805/875. I'll keep mine until it dies, and then I'll try to fix it. If I can't fix it (ie: unobtanium parts), then I'll have to look for something else.

Serendipity

Thanks, it looks like the 875 is the unit I should be looking for. According to Onkyo's specs, it weighs over 50lbs. Looking at the specs of the 806, the weight decreased significantly!

In the pic above the dusty unit on the right is my old receiver.

cnh

billbillw wrote: »

Its been all downhill since the 705/805/875. I'll keep mine until it dies, and then I'll try to fix it. If I can't fix it (ie: unobtanium parts), then I'll have to look for something else.

I'm with bill.. on this one. Bought an 805 refurbed years ago; haven't looked back since. Although I would say that the downturn started more with lower units. The top tier models are still pretty good (3009/5009) but you're going to PAY for those!

What two models are those in the pics, because the "width and length" of Onkyos has NOT changed according to their specs. The major change in lower models has been the depth is shorter--only!

cnh

EndersShadow

Personally I am now of the belief that I buy AVR's for features (and to possibly power surrounds) and make sure its got pre-outs. I plan to drop on a Sunfire amp to supply me with all the power I need for my fronts and leave the rest be.

My Integra 5.9 however has some pretty decent balls. I have yet to hear it hit the wall, but I normally dont put it to the test in my apartment (and since I run my LSi's off my Carver)

polkfarmboy

I had a Onkyo 607 and its 2ch analog performance was just awesome. I would listen to it on ML speakers and was really impressed with the clarity but never fancied the sound with the RTI for music


I am sorry to hear that you bought one of the new series and its not up to snuff. Why not try an anthem MRX300 ? ARC makes it worth the money any may suprise you for music

leroyjr1

What kind of speakers are you running?

rebuy

I agree with the first post. I have the 608 and do not like it for music. It is not harsh but it sounds bloated and too full. Makes the top end muddy and lose texture. I have had to adjust mine to get to a good synergy between the Polks and Onkyo. When you find the correct settings for these units, they sound great, but not in direct mode or flat. Mine has plenty of power and delivers the goods when set up to go with the kind of speakers you have. It takes a lot of tweeking to get it set up properly. This is my second Onkyo, I only had my first one a few hours because I didn't like the sound, and I doubt if I'll buy another one.

Serendipity

leroyjr1 wrote: »

What kind of speakers are you running?

Speakers used for music listening:

Definitive Technology BP10B
Polk Audio DSWPro550WI


Speakers used for movies:

Definitive Technology BP10B
Polk Audio DSWPro550WI
Pioneer SH-153BK Bookshelves
15" Dayton Titanic MKIII rear sub

jon s

Serendipity wrote: »

Thanks, it looks like the 875 is the unit I should be looking for. According to Onkyo's specs, it weighs over 50lbs. Looking at the specs of the 806, the weight decreased significantly!

In the pic above the dusty unit on the right is my old receiver.

The xx6 series is just as good as the xx5 series... They went downhill with the xx7 series. The 806 model does not compare to the 875 or 876 units. They are completely different beasts.

The problem with the high end Onkyos of both generations is that the HDMI board fail due to high heat from the GPU. You know when the HDMI is failing when it starts displaying pink and green lines on the screen and/or HDMI handshaking takes a long time. The caps on the HDMI board go bad because Onkyo went the cheap way with low-grade caps which could not take the heat. Sixteen caps on the 875/876/905/906 HDMI boards have to be replaced to restore functionality. I have both the 905 and 906 and already had them fixed... The cost to replace the HDMI board is ~$1000... to repair about $$300.

One last thing to note. These Onkyos again suffer from the notorious DTS HD Master bomb. They thought they fixed this issue when they released a DSP update a few years ago but the release of Star Wars on Blu-Ray in September proved that to be wrong. The DTS HD Master bomb is when the DTS signal is sent to the decoder and the decoder does not recognize it and passes the signal to the amps. This results in an extremely loud bang that is about ~20dB-30dB louder than normal. That kind of volume can destroy any speakers connected to amp and may damage the AVR as well. Onkyo is aware of the situation but have not found a resolution in the past three months. The only way around it is to have the playback device decode the signal internally and pass the decoded signal to the AVR. The only problem is that the signal from the player is usually 5.1 only.

Serendipity

I meant 805 vs. 806. For some reason the 806 is lighter than the 805.

Sorry about the confusion.

Serendipity

DSkip wrote: »

I've got an Integra DTR 9.1 and think it sounds great with music. Its quelled some of the "necessity" for an amp and, even though I'll get amps in time, I'm perfectly content with the SQ as it is.

Yes, that is an older model and the older units do sound great for music.

ViperZ

jon s wrote: »

The problem with the high end Onkyos of both generations is that the HDMI board fail due to high heat from the GPU.

That's why many of us just bought a $25 low-profile dual fan that plugs right into the back of the AVR from day one. My video processing board has been running cool and thankfully I never experienced the HDMI failure (knock on wood). The heat problem has been described in the official 805 thread on AVS forum (as well as the solution) from almost the day these beasts went on sale.

seeclear

What kind of fan, exactly? Link?

Thanks in advance.

rebuy

There is a built in fan in the SR608.

I'm not saying the 608 is not capable of good sound. It can be a great sounding VCR, it just doesn't sound good running straight into RTI4's. It has a lot of power for 5.1 listening.

jon s

seeclear wrote: »

What kind of fan, exactly? Link?

Thanks in advance.

Go to Amazon or any PC store... You want to get a 12v 120mm PC cooling fan that has ball bearings, not sleeve bearings (noise and shorter life span). You want the large fan because it moves more air than a smaller fan at the same speed. You want the fan to run as fast as possible without any distracting noise. Connect it to any variable 12V power supply. I have a switchable power supply that goes 12/9/6/3V. Just cut the end of the fan cable and solder it to the stripped power supply end. Then plug the power supply to AC outlet on the receiver... Make sure you note which way the air is blowing. The fans usually have an arrow showing the proper direction of the air flow. If the air flow is reversed, just switch the leads.

Oh yeah, the fan lead may have a 5V and a 12V lead. Lower the PS voltage to the lowest setting. Test the air flow speed and connect the leads to the ones that move the air slowly.

Face

What are you using for a source?

mantis

I use to do Integra many years ago back in 2001 2002. We just recently picked up Integra and I actually think they sound pretty good. Features and dynamic range are the 2 things that stand out.
Honestly I do believe the Pioneer Elite models sound much better side by side. They tend to have a more musical separate type sound while the Integra's seem to sound more like a receiver. I do however feel they are better then most others out there.

I'm wondering if Integra also has this HDMI board issues. I guess time will tell.

rebuy

It's my understanding that Integra's DO have these same problems as it's an Onkyo product. One reason I bought the Onkyo over the Integra was for price. It has the Darlington triple stage like the Integra's and similar amp sections. I have been surfing around since I first heard of the bulletins concerning the HDMI boards and have read about the Integras HDMI boards failing. This might not apply to all Integra units as it does not apply to all Onkyo's. The 608 was not listed as one of the production runs that had an inherent problem.

Hope this helps.

WilliamM2

jon s wrote: »

The fans usually have an arrow showing the proper direction of the air flow. If the air flow is reversed, just switch the leads.

Oh yeah, the fan lead may have a 5V and a 12V lead. Lower the PS voltage to the lowest setting. Test the air flow speed and connect the leads to the ones that move the air slowly.

That's the same type of fan setup I use. But reversing the leads on a 12v fan will not change the air direction. Most will just not spin at all, although some will actually burn up instantly. Also, the third lead is a speed sensor wire, not a 5v lead.

jbooker82

Why not just buy a AC Cooling Fan. I have the 120mmx120mmx25mm one on top of my Onkyo. Then plug it in to a switched (smart or green, what ever you wan to call it) power strip.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/110V-115V-120V-AC-Axial-Cooling-Fan-120mm-x-25mm-Power-Plug-/330633835322?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cfb4ff33a

If you want to reverse the direction why not just flip the fan over?

jbooker82

jon s wrote: »

One last thing to note. These Onkyos again suffer from the notorious DTS HD Master bomb. They thought they fixed this issue when they released a DSP update a few years ago but the release of Star Wars on Blu-Ray in September proved that to be wrong. The DTS HD Master bomb is when the DTS signal is sent to the decoder and the decoder does not recognize it and passes the signal to the amps. This results in an extremely loud bang that is about ~20dB-30dB louder than normal. That kind of volume can destroy any speakers connected to amp and may damage the AVR as well. Onkyo is aware of the situation but have not found a resolution in the past three months. The only way around it is to have the playback device decode the signal internally and pass the decoded signal to the AVR. The only problem is that the signal from the player is usually 5.1 only.

I havent experianced this. I have my Blu Ray player decode the audio and transmit it to the AVR with PCM.

Serendipity

Face wrote: »

What are you using for a source?

I am using a Panasonic DVD-Audio player as the source.

WilliamM2

jbooker82 wrote: »

Why not just buy a AC Cooling Fan. I have the 120mmx120mmx25mm one on top of my Onkyo. Then plug it in to a switched (smart or green, what ever you wan to call it) power strip.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/110V-115V-120V-AC-Axial-Cooling-Fan-120mm-x-25mm-Power-Plug-/330633835322?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cfb4ff33a

If you want to reverse the direction why not just flip the fan over?

39.4dba? Too loud for my taste, although I'm sure there are quieter 120v fans. The nice thing about 12v fans is being able to adjust the speed.

Face

Serendipity wrote: »

I am using a Panasonic DVD-Audio player as the source.

Have you tried decoding with the Oink for comparison's sake?

You should check out Marantz or NAD for bettter SQ.

EndersShadow

mantis wrote: »

I'm wondering if Integra also has this HDMI board issues. I guess time will tell.

My 5.9 (came out same year as the 606) had the same issue. I had work done on the HDMI board last year (thank god for the Integra's 3 year warranty) . I believe they simply replaced the cheap caps that were there, but I never really looked inside to verify.

Serendipity

Face wrote: »

Have you tried decoding with the Oink for comparison's sake?

You should check out Marantz or NAD for bettter SQ.

Yes, it's even worse when you use the receiver's DACs by going thru optical.

I also tried my 5 Disc Onkyo DV-CP500 (the one you heard), Toshiba HD-XA1, Panasonic DVD-F65, and the results were similar. The Onkyo and Toshiba HD-DVD could only play CD's, though. So I don't know how DVD-A sounds on these two players.

My only DVD-A players are the Panasonic DMR-E95HS and Panasonic DVD-F65.

Oh yeah and I also have a Samsung Single Disc DVD - same results.

billbillw

My SR805 has been in heavy use since I purchased it about 4 years ago and I hope to get many more years out of it. So far, not a single issue with the HDMI board. My receiver sits in open air with nothing on top and it is actually pretty close to an AC vent (within 3 feet), so that has probably helped keep it cooler than most, especially those who place it inside a cabinet. I still expect it might be a problem in the years to come, but I'm prepared to fix it.

On the topic of when Onkyo started to slide, most agree (see discussion at AVSforum) that the SR806 was a step down from the SR805 in terms of sound quality and sheer power.

The reason the 806 is substantially lighter than the 805 is because it uses a much smaller transformer! In other words, it doesn't have the same current capability with all channels driven. In addition, the 806 had a less powerful version of Audyssey (XT on the 805), and lower quality DACs.

However, the 806 has better video upconversion (which I've never used anyway) and 2 additional HDMI ports, both of which may be important to some folks, just not to me. Oh, the 806 also did away with the switched accessory AC plug, which may be used to power a cooling fan or to switch on an external mains amp (I do this).

Serendipity

How about the TX-NR1000? I have the opportunity to pick one up for $1500 + S/H.

The salesman at Crutchfield said the TX-NR5009 would be better, but it is $2900 and weighs less than the TX-NR1000, has no switched AC outlet, and the distortion ratings are higher.

Serendipity

Should I go for the TX-NR1000 or the TX-NR5009 ($1400 more)?

I am undecided at this point.

cnh

jon s wrote: »

The xx6 series is just as good as the xx5 series... They went downhill with the xx7 series. The 806 model does not compare to the 875 or 876 units. They are completely different beasts.

Good info but for clarification regarding the 805. The Onkyo manual for the 805 is a joint manual that also includes the 875? The only "real" differences between these two units is that the 875 has better video processing and Onkyo's VLSC (digital circuit) other than that...the amp sections are virtually identical. So sound-wise you'd be hard pressed to claim there is a difference. It is a well known fact that the 805 was one of the best pound for pound values Onkyo has put out. And considering that many 'new' units were discounted to 699 and below--they probably lost money for Onkyo, which is one reason the 806 was not a twin of the 876! And that the 80X series kept being scaled down, a process which ultimately got to the 100X series as well.

Professional reviews available on line advise people "if you don't need the extra video features of the 875 and are mostly into audio--just go with the 805! Almost 51 lbs in weight with the SAME transformer and caps as the 875.

If you're worried about DTS-HD bombs, which I've never come across. Maybe I don't play enough blu-rays. Just check the internet and if there is one default to DTS non-HD! I doubt there are many "explosive" discs out there.

HDMI boards? Play one movie or two a week. My 805 is in perfect condition, bought "refurb" over four years ago. Not ONE problem except for "heat" but it's never on long enough to blow out my boards. Fingers crossed!!

cnh