Studies On Residential Power Line Noise - Part 10 - PS Audio P10 AC Regenerator

neilprague

I'll try to chase these figures down. They're not given in the specs in the instruction manuals, and as the amp's old it may take a while, assuming I can find the information at all. What you suggest would certainly explain what I've been experiencing, and if this is the case it's a pity that PS Audio don't (as far as I know) emphasise or even mention peak current capacity as an important factor when choosing a regenerator. I reasonably assumed I'd have no problems as the power consumption of my entire system is less than half of the P10's maximum output and it never occurred to me that there might be other factors involved.

I'm not one to throw the baby out with the bathwater but obviously I'm better off without the P10 if it can't cope with my power amp. I bought it specifically because I wanted a unit that would accommodate my entire system and if I really can't use my power amp with it, then I guess I'll have to accept that.

Anyway, thanks again for your time and keep up the good work!

Neil

DarqueKnight

If it turns out that your amp's peak current spec is well within the peak current capacity of the P10, I suggest having the amp checked to make sure it is operating within spec. I recall you mentioning that you have an older tube amp.

Good luck with everything.

neilprague

Update: I owe you that after the time you've spent replying to me. I've solved the P10 clicking problem at last.

That's because I've taken up my dealer's offer and decided to ditch the P10.

I'll admit to being something of a grumpy old bugger. I have zero tolerance for nuisance noise and I'll be the first to complain about antisocial construction work or a neighbour's barking dog. At least those noises haven't cost me 4000 pounds. I do rather resent it when I have introduced something into my system to improve the sound, and I end up needing an extra dose of blood pressure pills as the item I've introduced makes obnoxious noises that get me seriously angry.

I have had my power amp for 18 years and yes, that is old. So maybe you're right, that there is some way the amp falls outside the specs of the P10. But, the power amp has been one of the most reliable and enjoyable things in my life for a long time, and given a choice between 18 years of excellent service and a new item that's basically given me nothing but trouble, I know which one has to go.

I have spent the last few days listening intently to my system without the P10 and yes, it is noticeable that the sound does seem to be better at some times than others, as it was before I bought the P10. But that's a small price to pay for removing an intrusive noise that was completely ruining my listening enjoyment.

The last thing I want to do is to come over as aggressive to you, DK. You're obviously a decent guy and you've done nothing other than to try to help. I'm certainly not having a go at you - it's not your fault that PS Audio, well-meaning and nice people though they are, aren't yet quite up there with the big boys like Audio Research or Martin Logan. PS need to admit that there is a design fault with one of their flagship products - I'm not the only one to experience this - and do something about it.

I'd seriously recommend that anyone thinking of buying one of these gets, if possible, a good long demo period. The P10 may well work superbly in your system and if so, great. But keep an ear out for clicks from the unit and if you get them, stay away.

Lest I give the impression that I set all this up to write a "shill" review, I'd like to dispel that impression. I have no vested interest and certainly am not recommending any alternative product. As far as I know, PS Audio lead the (rather narrow, at present) field in mains regenerators. I am simply stating that as things stand the P10 is, in my opinion, not quite satisfactory.

All the best

Neil

Drenis

neilprague wrote: »

PS need to admit that there is a design fault with one of their flagship products

How did you determine that it's a design fault?

neilprague

Drenis wrote: »

How did you determine that it's a design fault?

In all other respects the unit works fine and does what it's supposed to. I have been told by the manufacturer that the clicking noise the P10 makes is the internal mechanism responding to mains distortion or change in voltage or some other factor it doesn't like. Fair enough - it's got a job to do and it's doing it. The problem is that it carries out its task noisily to the point that it is an irritant. Had the unit been designed so that the the internal mechanism operates quietly, there would be no problem. That's why I call it a design fault.

Drenis

neilprague wrote: »

In all other respects the unit works fine and does what it's supposed to. I have been told by the manufacturer that the clicking noise the P10 makes is the internal mechanism responding to mains distortion or change in voltage or some other factor it doesn't like. Fair enough - it's got a job to do and it's doing it. The problem is that it carries out its task noisily to the point that it is an irritant. Had the unit been designed so that the the internal mechanism operates quietly, there would be no problem. That's why I call it a design fault.

But you have no proof that the protection circuit simply failed (for what, could be a few reasons) or may have been a single unit with a bad protection circuit installed or something else... Such as dirty power fluctuating outside of safe boundaries for the unit to operate.

You need to investigate whether or not your have a power issue, a faulty unit or if it acts as a result of some sort of failure cause by...? You're jumping to conclusions. Not only that, but I have done my fair share of reading with this brand. It's not cheap crap. Look into it more.

chumlie

While i could never afford one. I do understand Neils point. For that kind of money, it should operate dead quiet considering what its used for. Also, he never implied it was cheap crap.

neilprague

Thank you Chumlie, your reply states exactly the point I'm making. I'll just add that I have been trying to get a resolution to this since May, and that has included fairly extensive correspondence with the PS Audio techs. Six months on, I am nowhere nearer to solving the problem. I'm sorry, but I have simply had enough and given up. Life's too short.

I apologise if I have trodden on any toes here. That was not my intention, and if my posts have seemed hostile or provocative it is just a result of my frustration. The P10 obviously works well for some people - that's great. It doesn't for me, so let's agree to differ and move on.

Neil

DarqueKnight

Drenis wrote: »

You need to investigate whether or not your have a power issue, a faulty unit or if it acts as a result of some sort of failure cause by...? You're jumping to conclusions. Not only that, but I have done my fair share of reading with this brand. It's not cheap crap. Look into it more.

chumlie wrote: »

While i could never afford one. I do understand Neils point. For that kind of money, it should operate dead quiet considering what its used for. Also, he never implied it was cheap crap.

Chumlie, this is somewhat like saying that, for the money you pay for a 400 series Lexus, the ride should be perfectly smooth and quiet. However, the ride won't be perfectly smooth and quiet if you are riding on a rutted gravel road. Such a road exceeds the design parameters of the Lexus. No amount of "resolution" from Lexus can solve the issue of a noisy, bumpy ride due to poor road conditions.

neilprague wrote: »

Thank you Chumlie, your reply states exactly the point I'm making. I'll just add that I have been trying to get a resolution to this since May, and that has included fairly extensive correspondence with the PS Audio techs. Six months on, I am nowhere nearer to solving the problem. I'm sorry, but I have simply had enough and given up. Life's too short.

I apologise if I have trodden on any toes here. That was not my intention, and if my posts have seemed hostile or provocative it is just a result of my frustration. The P10 obviously works well for some people - that's great. It doesn't for me, so let's agree to differ and move on.

Neil, I assure you no toes were stepped on and I did not infer hostility from your comments. We were just offering suggestions to remedy your issue.

Drenis makes a good point. In fairness to PS Audio, they cannot anticipate every situation that might occur everywhere in the world with every type of power amplifier. I specifically mentioned that the P10 cannot properly power one of my JC 1 monoblocks and that the P10 promptly shuts down if I connect two of them. This is not a design flaw. The JC 1's simply require more peak current than the P10 can provide. Indeed, Parasound explicitly told me that I would need a commercial grade regenerator to supply the peak current demands of the JC 1. On the PS Audio forums, there is feedback from other P10 owners about other power amps not working with the P10.

As I suggested previously, the peak current demands of Neil's amp and the peak current capability of the European P10 is essential information. Without knowing this, we are "shooting in the dark".

From what Neil described, the protection circuitry only activates when music is playing and the regenerator never disengages. This indicates to me that there is some interaction between your power amp and the P10 that the P10 does not like. There may also be power line issues. This also indicates to me that the problem is not serious enough for the protection circuitry to fully activate and disengage the regenerator and require the P10 to be reset.

Since Neil was unwilling, or unable, to investigate other avenues for contributing causes, I agree that the best solution in his case was to return the P10.

tonyb

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Drenis makes a good point. In fairness to PS Audio, they cannot anticipate every situation that might occur everywhere in the world with every type of power amplifier.

This......along with any other manufacturer.

DarqueKnight

DarqueKnight wrote: »

I have two Adcom GFA-5500 amps running off a single P10 in my home theater system and it handles them fine.

I misspoke here...I actually have threee Adcom GFA-5500 power amps (350 wpc into 4 ohms) running off a single P10 in my home theater system (power amps for center, front and surround channels), in addition to a Blu-ray player, analog preamp, digital preamp/processor, tuner and CD player. A P5 handles the plasma television and Tivo.

Stu007

Thanks for the info. This is very interesting because I'm in the process searching for clean power for my new hifi system with an Audio Research VSi60 integrated tube amplifier. How does the P5/P10 compare to online/double conversion UPS backups that generate a clean sign wave at the output? I'm specifically thinking of the Eaton EX1500, which is about 1/4th the price of a P10 but with the same power output. Thanks. -Stuart

leftwinger57

I also found this extremely interesting. The fact that a guy in Prague is having problems w/ a unit and DK and others are here to try to help him out is fantastic. DK and PS audio calls these devices AC regenerators, are they still under the more common name of power conditioners like Panamax,Monster, and Belkins?1 other point and I guess it's great buisness sense is to make models compatible w/ voltages of other countries.Most use 230v and the only other gear I personally ever saw to do this was Bose. When installing their Acoutimass Lifestyle 30s/or 50s they had a switch to convert from 110 v to 230 and a transformer to match.I just use a Samson 9outlet surge strip w/a large on/off lit rocker switch w/ a an amount joule protection that escapes me now and I know it really is not a conditioner at all.

tonyb

LW, power strips do nothing but offer some spike protection, little at that too. Power conditioners do more to clean up the signal and remove line noise while offering a greater line surge or spike protection. Power regenerators do what most conditioners do and keep the line voltage constant so you don't have dips. Some may even store that power. Different brands do different things in their own ways, but lower level power conditioners from mass marketed box stores are usually all the same.....all the same technology.

Toolfan66

I have one of the higher end Panamax's and it works great, but I have been looking hard at the PS Audio's and Furman's, more on the PS's then the others..

DarqueKnight

leftwinger57 wrote: »

DK and PS audio calls these devices AC regenerators, are they still under the more common name of power conditioners like Panamax,Monster, and Belkins?

An AC regenerator is not a conditioner. Conditioners take power from the wall and filter it to remove noise. A regenerator takes power from the wall, converts it to DC, then regenerates a new sine wave with much lower noise and distortion and with a more stable voltage level.

An analogy would be the difference between adding conditioner to a head full of damaged hair or cutting all the damaged hair off and growing a new healthy head of hair.

ckc527

How do I find working link to part 1 - 9 ?

agfrost

type "studies on residential power line noise" in the search bar at the top of this page.

DarqueKnight

ckc527 wrote: »

How do I find working link to part 1 - 9 ?

Welcome to the forum.

Sorry about the broken links. When the forum went to a new software platform, a lot of old links didn't carry over.

As agfrost mentioned, the forum's search function will pull all of them up. You can just search on

"residential power line".

DarqueKnight

***Update - PS Audio Powerbase Installed Under P10 AC Regenerator***

In figure 5 and the narrative near it, I explained that I tried different isolation cones with the P10 and achieved some inprovement.

The Powerbase isolation platform was designed specifically for the P10 to provide both powerline filtering and mechanical isolation. I had always put off trying one with the P10 in my two channel system because:

1. I didn't think it would make that much difference.
2. I didn't want to go through the agony of pulling the equipment cabinet from the wall, disconnecting cabling, rearranging shelf heights, removal and replacement of components, and rearranging cable routing. My distaste for this process kept me from auditioning one of the Powerbases I already owned with the P10.

PS Audio's recent 50% closeout sale on the Powerbase provided the bit of push I needed to go ahead and audition one under the P10. I already have a Powerbase under the DAC, digital player, master clock, and my recently decommissioned turntable.

All I had to lose was time if I didn't like it. Shipping is free to the purchaser and PS Audio pays for return shipping at the end of a 30 day home trial.

I was expecting a subtle to small improvement at best, but after everything was installed/reinstalled, I experienced one of these moments:



The immediate improvement in image weight, bass weight, bass growl, bass articulation, tactile sensation, and holography was substantial.

The recommended connection configuration for a P10/Powerbase setup is a high quality power cord from the Powerbase to the wall, and a second power cord from the Powerbase's Power Port Premier outlet to the P10. I already have a dedicated 20 amp AC circuit just for the P10, which is terminated with a PS Audio Soloist SE in-wall passive conditioner. Therefore, I bypassed the Powerbase's power filtering and ran the PS Audio AC-12 power cord straight from the wall/Soloist to the Powerbase.


Figure 17. Four Powerbases.

My two channel system has changed a lot since the P10 was installed in November of 2011. The only electronic component remaining is the P10. Also remaining are the Salamander Synergy Triple 30 cabinet, PS Audio P10 AC regenerator, Polk Audio SDA SRS 1.2TL speakers, Audioquest Sky interconnects, Audioquest Everest speaker cables, and PS Audio AC-12 power cords.


Figure 18. Two channel system November 2011. The Parasound Halo JC 1 monoblock amps, Pass Labs X1 preamp, Pass Labs XP-25 phono preamp, Teres 255 turntable, and Cary Audio CD 206 Pro Version SACD player were replaced.

Joey_V

That's a really nice system DK

BlueFox

When he steps up to passive power filtration it will jump up a notch or two. Then again, that is pretty cost prohibitive.