Never heard ALL Class D...any opinions on SQ?

exalted512

You expect him to do the test for free?

Kinda ridiculous to me...since if you offer up $10,000 and no recourse...on something that requires time and effort to do, you'd get thousands of people trying to do it.

And since you're so sure you could do it, its not like you wouldnt be winning the money back.

I'm sure you could pay someone to sit in on the test and verify he's doing it correctly and still come out way ahead.

-Cody

MacLeod

An amps job is to take the source signal, amplify it then send it off to the speakers without any changes and completely transparent. It doesn't take a $1000 worth of fancy circuitry to do this. More to the point, why would you want an amp that changes the sound?

And nobody is saying all amps sound the same and are equal, there are differences in power, noise, build quality and features. But there wont be warmer highs or tighter midbass. These are characteristics of speakers, not amps.

And Clark offers $10,000 cause he knows he's right. I'd offer $10,000 that I can tell the difference between Coke and Dr Pepper.

And there is nothing secret about it. You can bring any 2 amps you want, you can bring any music that you want, you control the volume, you can listen to each track as long and as many times as you want. The only 2 rules are they have to be level matched because you can obviously tell a 100 watt amp from a 500 watt amp. And you can't see which amp is playing at the time. It is the only objective and scientific way to test this.

BeefJerky

exalted512 wrote: »

You expect him to do the test for free?

Kinda ridiculous to me...since if you offer up $10,000 and no recourse...on something that requires time and effort to do, you'd get thousands of people trying to do it.

And since you're so sure you could do it, its not like you wouldnt be winning the money back.

-Cody

I think you've missed my point. My concern is that he is offering $10,000 of his own money if someone wins. He has no incentive to honestly declare a winner due to that, not to mention his existing bias's regarding the matter. I stated in my prior post that I would consider participating in a test of similar nature where there was no monetary involvement, and I stand by that.

exalted512 wrote:

I'm sure you could pay someone to sit in on the test and verify he's doing it correctly and still come out way ahead.

So, I should pay for the test and someone to sit in with me? No thanks. I'm not really that concerned with proving (or disproving) my point. I've already stated under what conditions I would be willing to participate in a test like this.

arun1963

Beef Jerky, it's a double blind test and it's legit. If you're saying amps do sound different, two questions. First, did you hear them in the same car (hence environment), off the same setup, with the two amps level matched? Next, if amps do sound different, can you name some amps that definitely sounded 'better'?

exalted512

sounds like an answer of someone who can't back what theyre saying to me.
-Cody

KrazyMofo24

MacLeod wrote: »

An amps job is to take the source signal, amplify it then send it off to the speakers without any changes and completely transparent. It doesn't take a $1000 worth of fancy circuitry to do this. More to the point, why would you want an amp that changes the sound?

And nobody is saying all amps sound the same and are equal, there are differences in power, noise, build quality and features. But there wont be warmer highs or tighter midbass. These are characteristics of speakers, not amps.

And Clark offers $10,000 cause he knows he's right. I'd offer $10,000 that I can tell the difference between Coke and Dr Pepper.

And there is nothing secret about it. You can bring any 2 amps you want, you can bring any music that you want, you control the volume, you can listen to each track as long and as many times as you want. The only 2 rules are they have to be level matched because you can obviously tell a 100 watt amp from a 500 watt amp. And you can't see which amp is playing at the time. It is the only objective and scientific way to test this.

Those differences affect the sound quality otherwise why the spend the money to get the better amp? Usually this discussion is for cables/speaker wires not amps. There's a post from Darqueknight somewhere where he argued how the double blind test is flawed or at least the one where every cable naysayer refers to when disputing cables. Some speakers are harder to drive than others, and the majority of them benefit with more clean power. There are plenty of posts where tube amps sound warmer, others where the amps do improve the bass.

Macleod I know you have way more experience in this, and listened to a lot more amps and speakers than I have. I can see a point where there won't be a big difference as in the top Alpine vs the top JL Audio amp, but not a $50 Jensen amp vs the top Alpine amp or even the MRP-F300.

Finally I'm not really wanting to favor one way or the other. I'm more interested in getting a better understanding in general.

BeefJerky

arun1963 wrote: »

Beef Jerky, it's a double blind test and it's legit. If you're saying amps do sound different, two questions. First, did you hear them in the same car (hence environment), off the same setup, with the two amps level matched? Next, if amps do sound different, can you name some amps that definitely sounded 'better'?

I've read the FAQ's and looked at the information on the site. It seems that he's the only one who oversees it, as he is the one who sets up, monitors and conducts the test. He is also the only one who determines and declares the results. I can't find anything that indicates otherwise; did I miss something on the site? You say "it's legit," but I don't know you or the person conducting the study. Why should I place my faith in him? When you combine the fact that he is the only one who oversees it and his monetary offer, it does not appear legit in my eyes. There's a reason that real scientific studies have (relatively) impartial bodies that oversee the testing.

Yes to the same environment - both in terms of car amps and home amps. Levels probably weren't as closely matched as per the study, as I am limited with an inexpensive SPL meter.

exalted512 wrote: »

sounds like an answer of someone who can't back what theyre saying to me.
-Cody

I'm willing to do a double blind test. I just want monetary involvement out of it, as that just adds further unnecessary bias to the study. I honestly don't see what is so hard to understand about that. Assuming I were to do a double-blind test without the monetary involvement, and I am proven wrong, I will be more than happy to admit it.

MacLeod

KrazyMofo24 wrote: »

Those differences affect the sound quality otherwise why the spend the money to get the better amp? Usually this discussion is for cables/speaker wires not amps. There's a post from Darqueknight somewhere where he argued how the double blind test is flawed or at least the one where every cable naysayer refers to when disputing cables. Some speakers are harder to drive than others, and the majority of them benefit with more clean power. There are plenty of posts where tube amps sound warmer, others where the amps do improve the bass.

Macleod I know you have way more experience in this, and listened to a lot more amps and speakers than I have. I can see a point where there won't be a big difference as in the top Alpine vs the top JL Audio amp, but not a $50 Jensen amp vs the top Alpine amp or even the MRP-F300.

Finally I'm not really wanting to favor one way or the other. I'm more interested in getting a better understanding in general.

You said it right there: if there aren't any tonal differences, then why spend the money. That's precisely why you get companies like Signal Cable selling snake oil like $80 extension cords claiming drastic improvements in sound, or the cable risers so the vibrations in your floor don't get into the RCA's and screw up the sound. They have to claim they sound different in order to sell them. Its a scam. Ill take one of those $175 JL Audio amps and go head to head with those $1000 Zapco and Audison amps any day.

Now tube amps DO sound different but it's because of the high resistance that it rolls off the high end of the frequency response. You can do the same thing with an AB amp simply by turning the treble down and costing you a lot less money. But again, why would you want it? I don't want an amp that changes the source in any way. Ill decide how much I want to cut the treble.

And people always say double blind testing is flawed because the golden ears have never proved they can hear a difference. How could you get more objective? You listen to one amp without knowing which one it is, then another amp and then say which is which. That is as objective as you can get.

Richard Clark's challenge has been standing for a few decades now and nobody's ever shown how its flawed.

pentoncm

The only reason I would ever go and spend a crap ton of money on Audison amps is for the new Voce amps with the optical connection. That would be sure to improve SQ, but not really because of amp design but for eliminating noise from the system. Have you ever A/B compared the optical connection on a HT setup with the RCAs. There is a noticeable difference. I've never noticed a difference between HT receivers however.

KrazyMofo24

pentoncm wrote: »

The only reason I would ever go and spend a crap ton of money on Audison amps is for the new Voce amps with the optical connection. That would be sure to improve SQ, but not really because of amp design but for eliminating noise from the system. Have you ever A/B compared the optical connection on a HT setup with the RCAs. There is a noticeable difference. I've never noticed a difference between HT receivers however.

Optical is digital and RCA's are analog. There is a difference because you are using the dac's of the device you have connected using RCA to the receiver. If you connect it optical then you are using the receiver's dac. I can definitely say I can hear a difference between receivers. At minimum a lot of the low end receivers don't have a strong enough amp to power some of the higher end 4 ohm speakers.

MacLeod

Now we're talking stuff that actually does make a difference.

Keeping the signal all the way to the amplifiers is the ideal way to do it. That way there is zero induced noise (hiss) and youll get a much stronger signal. Take my Alpine H700 for example. If I use analog inputs, I have to turn the gains down pretty low to keep the hiss out. If I run optical from the head unit to the processor, Im able to turn the gains up a lot more (output levels on the processor) and only hit the hiss at the highest volumes. If I were able to run digital all the way to the amps, I could max out the levels all the way to the amps and have virtually zero noise.

That being said, that would only come into play for the EXTREMELY picky and competitors. Youll never hear the hiss I have in my system during daily driving and definitely not while driving. The only time it rears its ugly head is during SQ judging when theyve got it cranked up.

About the receivers, its the same as the amps (unless its a home audio receiver which can have its own soundfields and such). The head unit with the lower power wont sound as good because it wont have the oomph to drive the speakers and really make the music come alive. A higher powered receiver will be much better at this. Remember, its not that all amps/receivers sound the same. Higher powered amps/receivers will sound different due to their higher output. Youll get more midbass and more dynamics with a 100x2 amp as opposed to a 15x2 receiver because of the more power. But youre not going to get cleaner highs or broader soundstage between two 100x2 amps of different brands/topology (tubes not withstanding). Power is what we're talking about, not tonal characteristics.

pentoncm

Anybody have any opinions about Class H amps such as the Arc Audio amps? We have already established that all amps have the same tonality (except tubes). The problem I have read about class D is that it chops up the signal and then puts the signal back together. Therefore class AB is supposed to sound more natural. Class H uses rail technology to increase efficiency sometimes better than class D while keeping the signal in the original form just as in AB amps.

arun1963

Dunno about class H but my Genesis are class G and I don't haer anything different from the A/B PA 500.4. More power and headroom yes, but no tonality difference. Doubt if you would hear any difference with class H.

Toxis

Good with my all D setup...

MacLeod

I remember a while back, Xtant came out with a line 100x1, full range class D amps. They were the first class D amps for car audio. Jeff Smith competed with a bunch of them for a while. I wouldve loved to have 6 of those. But God that would be a pain in the **** to install. Im struggling to find room for 3 amps!

KrazyMofo24

I believe the Alpine PDX amps are also class D.