Never heard ALL Class D...any opinions on SQ?

RadarContact

My immediate reaction is, "not gonna sound very good". I picture cold, hard sound. Can anyone shake this pre-conceived prejudice that I have in my mind...I am really considering the PA D5000.5, and only because it's made by a company like Polk.

pentoncm

I don't know if I buy into this cold, hard sound business on new D full range amps.

Sound quality doesn't come from amplifiers. Good amplifiers simply amplify the signal without changing it or adding any color of their own. Full range D amps have been on the market for a while, so I think the kinks have been worked out.

There were issues with the first generation full range D amps years ago but I think all of that has been worked out. Polk has switched over now the entire line to full range D, Alpine has as well, new JL amps are all D.


It must be sounding good if these companies are going into this.

20hz

I am the same way , I am looking into a class d for my home subs , but I cant ever see using one for my mains (full range) the only thing that makes me consider one at all for my home subs is I have beating to death my car d-class kicker for years .
The new peavey ips 1600 claims .1 thd 10-50k freq response , numbers sound good but I really wonder how does it sound ?
I having lots of trust in peavey beleive they WONT build a strange sounding amp , they have been building d-class for a while even the old deca series was .

nooshinjohn

pentoncm wrote: »

Sound quality doesn't come from amplifiers.

This is just flat out BS...

arun1963

nooshinjohn wrote: »

This is just flat out BS...

Nope. SQ in a car is way, way bigger than which amp you run.

BeefJerky

pentoncm wrote: »

I don't know if I buy into this cold, hard sound business on new D full range amps.

Sound quality doesn't come from amplifiers. Good amplifiers simply amplify the signal without changing it or adding any color of their own. Full range D amps have been on the market for a while, so I think the kinks have been worked out.

There were issues with the first generation full range D amps years ago but I think all of that has been worked out. Polk has switched over now the entire line to full range D, Alpine has as well, new JL amps are all D.


It must be sounding good if these companies are going into this.

It would be nice if a company or individual could put together a completely neutral amplifier, however, they don't exist as far as I know. But that could be said about any active component. They will all affect the sound in one way or another; it's a question of how much and in what way. As far as class-D amplifier technology, it has come a long way over the years. However, my ears tell me that there is still a difference between a good class-A/B and class-D amplifier, though that gap is getting smaller and smaller. Now, as to whether your ears can tell a difference, I don't know. It will also vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.

arun1963 wrote: »

Nope. SQ in a car is way, way bigger than which amp you run.

I will admit that car audio is more complex, as it is a more difficult environment acoustically. However, to dismiss a component simply because it makes up a somewhat smaller part of the equation is half-assing it in my opinion. As for my system, I will upgrade the amplifier at sometime in the future when I have more of a budget to work with and can therefore justify the cost. It is the weak link in my system.

arun1963

BeefJerky wrote: »

I will admit that car audio is more complex, as it is a more difficult environment acoustically. However, to dismiss a component simply because it makes up a somewhat smaller part of the equation is half-assing it in my opinion. As for my system, I will upgrade the amplifier at sometime in the future when I have more of a budget to work with and can therefore justify the cost. It is the weak link in my system.

One of the significant differences between your home and the car is the floor noise level. So if your car has floor noise of say 50 db's then woorying about 0.1% THD of Amp 1 vs 0.05% from Amp 2 is meaningless, cause you're not going to hear either.

Typically, your speakers will distort the signal MUCH more than your amp. But the weakest link in a car is almost never the equipment. It's always the environment.

BeefJerky

arun1963 wrote: »

One of the significant differences between your home and the car is the floor noise level. So if your car has floor noise of say 50 db's then woorying about 0.1% THD of Amp 1 vs 0.05% from Amp 2 is meaningless, cause you're not going to hear either.

I understand the differences. It still doesn't mean you should ignore a components affect, even if it is to a lesser degree. Also, we're not just talking about distortion, we are also talking about sound signature. As I mentioned, there is no such thing as a totally neutral amp. So, a person may have a personal preference between a warmer or colder sounding amplifier, and that is still valid whether in a car or in a home.

Typically, your speakers will distort the signal MUCH more than your amp. But the weakest link in a car is almost never the equipment. It's always the environment.

Wait...So, is it "almost never the equipment," or is it "always the environment?" You contradicted yourself here.

arun1963

BeefJerky wrote: »

I understand the differences. It still doesn't mean you should ignore a components affect, even if it is to a lesser degree.

If 'lesser' puts it beyond 'audible', then yes you're wasting your time thinking about it.

BeefJerky wrote: »

Also, we're not just talking about distortion, we are also talking about sound signature. As I mentioned, there is no such thing as a totally neutral amp. So, a person may have a personal preference between a warmer or colder sounding amplifier, and that is still valid whether in a car or in a home.

No such thing as a neutral amp, yest the all measure the same? +/- 1db across 10 octaves. 'Warmer' and 'colder' are terms used for voicing on speakers not amps. Both at home and in a car.

BeefJerky wrote: »

Wait...So, is it "almost never the equipment," or is it "always the environment?" You contradicted yourself here.

No contradiction. If someones running a cheap $30 amp you scooped from ebay, and some 200 watts rated $20 speakers running off an xplod hu, then equipment is the weakest link. However anyone even half serious about the hobby would not run that set up. Hence 'almost never'. In real terms the environment is the weakest link.

pentoncm

I agree that you really shouldn't worry about the equipment, worry about the environment. I despise shops who tell people they NEED to upgrade their amps to get better SQ while never bringing up processing or speaker placement. Speaker placement and processing to overcome the environment trumps the influence of the amp by a very large margin. As long as you are not running a cheapo amp from Autozone, it will be fine.

I have an MTX amp for my mids/tweets. Yeah its not the best but it is clean sounding. Instead of investing $500 on a better amp I put in a Bit Ten. If I didn't use processing, any improvement in SQ coming from a better amp would be masked by frequency response issues and timing issues.

BeefJerky

arun1963 wrote: »

If 'lesser' puts it beyond 'audible', then yes you're wasting your time thinking about it.

Well, that boils down to the individual listener too. Some people are more sensitive or picky about certain aspects of a sound system. Person A may be bothered by some certain aspect of a sound system that person B wouldn't notice or care about.

No such thing as a neutral amp, yest the all measure the same? +/- 1db across 10 octaves. 'Warmer' and 'colder' are terms used for voicing on speakers not amps. Both at home and in a car.

A simple frequency response chart isn't everything. Get your ears on a something along the lines of an Emotiva amp and a Harman/Kardon amp. They are noticeably different in terms of warmness, yet they both measure similarly on a frequency response chart. As to what it is that specifically makes one warmer than the other, I don't know.

No contradiction. If someones running a cheap $30 amp you scooped from ebay, and some 200 watts rated $20 speakers running off an xplod hu, then equipment is the weakest link. However anyone even half serious about the hobby would not run that set up. Hence 'almost never'. In real terms the environment is the weakest link.

There is absolutely a contradiction. In your first statement you are saying that it is almost never the equipment; in your second statement you are saying that it is never the equipment. You really can't have it both ways.

MacLeod

Nope, no difference. Class D amps are more efficient so youll get more power for your input voltage but there is no class D "sound" just like there is no class a/b sound or any other kind. Even if there were, why would you want it? You want an amp that can transmit the source out to the speakers completely transparent. Even $100 Sony amps can do that. It doesnt take $1000 worth of circuitry to achieve this. Dig up all the old car audio magazines with amp reviews in them and check out the frequency response graphs for them. Theyre all nice and flat from 20-20KHz. Home audio reviews dont have these because theyre far more invested in snake oil like magic speaker cables and such so they want no part in scientific, objective measurements.

Class D amps are handy because theyre much smaller than their AB counterparts so you can mount them in more places easier. Plus the efficiency is nice as well.

Its been proven time and time again that people cant hear a difference between a brandy or type of amp. The one exception is tube amps which have a roll off on the high end that affects the frequency response. Other than that, all solid state amps read rule flat from 20-20KHz and in every double blind test, its never been shown you can pick one amp out over another. Hell I proved it just this last month preparing for MECA finals. I had an amp crap out on me and had to stick an old Crossfire amp in its place. Didnt have to adjust the EQ at all. Heard no difference at all and I dare say Ive got pretty good listening skills especially listing to the same SQ judging disc for the last 6 years ad nauseam.

Thats not to say there isnt a difference between amps. You pay more for an amp for power of course but also noise, connection quality, build quality and so forth. So it does pay off to spend more on a good, quality brand of amp. Just dont buy one for its clear highs or tight bass cause those are characteristics of speakers and not amps.

KrazyMofo24

I have the Polk SR5250's and they sounded pretty average with the cheap MTX Thunder amp, and Rockford Fosgate P650.2.

I just moved to the Alpine MRP-F300 this weekend, and it's made a pretty noticeable difference, and I think it sounds much better.

My environment is horrible I don't have Dynamat, and I have the tweeters mounted in coax style. When I get some more cash I'll probably look to paying someone to mount the tweeters and bi-wire them to the amp.


Anyways just moving to a better quality amp makes a very noticeable difference even in the same environment. This is just my experience from going from a low end amp to a mid range one.

MacLeod

MTX and Rockford Fosgate are not low end amps.

KrazyMofo24

You are right. The 650.2 is actually really good as a sub amp. The MTX I don't the remember the model, but I know it's one of their lowest one from what they offer. It is better than most of the off brand amps that are out there. The Rockford didn't sound very good with the Polk's which I don't think it should because it's advertised as a sub amp. I just tried it out, because didn't have the budget to buy a better amp to replace the MTX.

The Alpine has made a big difference to me. So I feel amps are definitely something to consider when looking to get better sound quality.

KaosTsoc

I am sure a good amp does add to sound quality a little, but the bigger part is efficiency. Which in turn I would assume would lead to better power out put, and little bit better sound, but not like what alot of audio stores would have the masses beleive.


Thanks.

BeefJerky

MacLeod wrote: »

MTX and Rockford Fosgate are not low end amps.

But wait! I though that as long as you didn't get a cheap-**** flea-market amp, they all sounded the same??? Seems we have a contradiction here.

Can't say that I'm surprised...

MacLeod

So out of me saying that MTX and RF are good solid amps, you somehow get that Im admitting that they sound different? Really?

Ill buy a good solid amp for no noise, power exceeding its ratings, good build quality, connections, features and cooling.

Nice try sweetheart but you should really find another forum and brush up on your troll skills cause you suck at it.

BeefJerky

MacLeod wrote: »

So out of me saying that MTX and RF are good solid amps, you somehow get that Im admitting that they sound different? Really?

Ill buy a good solid amp for no noise, power exceeding its ratings, good build quality, connections, features and cooling.

Nice try sweetheart but you should really find another forum and brush up on your troll skills cause you suck at it.

No, however, KrazyMofo24 did say he heard a difference between quality amps. You didn't say that he was wrong or correct him, yet when I claim it you call me out and say that no one can hear a difference. So, what gives? Why do you seem to accept that he can hear a difference, yet you don't accept that I (or others) can? Either you are contradicting yourself, or you only like to pick on certain people.

MacLeod

Hey genius, go 2 posts above the one youre wetting your pants about. In case you cant figure out how to, let me make it easy for you.

MacLeod wrote: »

Nope, no difference. Class D amps are more efficient so youll get more power for your input voltage but there is no class D "sound" just like there is no class a/b sound or any other kind. Even if there were, why would you want it? You want an amp that can transmit the source out to the speakers completely transparent. Even $100 Sony amps can do that. It doesnt take $1000 worth of circuitry to achieve this. Dig up all the old car audio magazines with amp reviews in them and check out the frequency response graphs for them. Theyre all nice and flat from 20-20KHz. Home audio reviews dont have these because theyre far more invested in snake oil like magic speaker cables and such so they want no part in scientific, objective measurements.

Class D amps are handy because theyre much smaller than their AB counterparts so you can mount them in more places easier. Plus the efficiency is nice as well.

Its been proven time and time again that people cant hear a difference between a brandy or type of amp. The one exception is tube amps which have a roll off on the high end that affects the frequency response. Other than that, all solid state amps read rule flat from 20-20KHz and in every double blind test, its never been shown you can pick one amp out over another. Hell I proved it just this last month preparing for MECA finals. I had an amp crap out on me and had to stick an old Crossfire amp in its place. Didnt have to adjust the EQ at all. Heard no difference at all and I dare say Ive got pretty good listening skills especially listing to the same SQ judging disc for the last 6 years ad nauseam.

Thats not to say there isnt a difference between amps. You pay more for an amp for power of course but also noise, connection quality, build quality and so forth. So it does pay off to spend more on a good, quality brand of amp. Just dont buy one for its clear highs or tight bass cause those are characteristics of speakers and not amps.

So what, you want me to repeat this entire thing every time somebody says they like the broader soundstage they got with their Coustic amp? A fail troll like you would cause you just want to argue. I dont feel the need to argue with every single person or post on a forum. And seeing as how I wrote this TWO POSTS BEFORE, I didnt really think it needed to be repeated cause Id made my case already.

BeefJerky

MacLeod wrote: »

So what, you want me to repeat this entire thing every time somebody says they like the broader soundstage they got with their Coustic amp? A fail troll like you would cause you just want to argue. I dont feel the need to argue with every single person or post on a forum. And seeing as how I wrote this TWO POSTS BEFORE, I didnt really think it needed to be repeated cause Id made my case already.

You had no problem repeating it to me over and over in another thread. In fact, that was really all the "evidence" you were able to offer up in that discussion. I actually posted some real studies and statistics to back up my viewpoint, but of course you were quick to dismiss them since they didn't support your viewpoint. However, I will drop it at this point since it is obvious you are unwilling to actually listen to reason or have a rational discussion. This is clear by your use of insults and snide remarks directed at me, something which I never resorted to here or in the other thread.

MacLeod

Oh cry me a freaking river. You popped off like a **** nozzle trying to start an argument so you should be happy cause that's what you got. If you were wanting a discussion, you wouldn't have come in with a smart **** post. You're a troll and I have no patience for trolls so get over it and yourself.

arun1963

BJ, they do have meds for PMS.

pentoncm

I have the MTX Thunder 704x and it actually sounds quite good. I have had it for about 3 years, I've heard it hooked up to my factory deck and then hooked up to a pioneer HU. Its driven both db and MM components. I've heard big improvements in sound quality at every upgrade, factory with db, to pioneer with db, to bit Ten, Kenwood, and MM components. There was a huge improvement just using active filters with the Bit Ten(before EQ) and the MMs. I truly believe that there is more SQ related to speaker placement, crossovers, and eq, then there is to amps.

The alpine MRP amp is a $200 amp which I would not really think of as a mid level amp, I still would consider this entry as is my Mtx Thunder 704 which is normally $280. They both are good and clean but I doubt that there are any big differences.

exalted512

MacLeod wrote: »

Oh cry me a freaking river. You popped off like a **** nozzle trying to start an argument so you should be happy cause that's what you got. If you were wanting a discussion, you wouldn't have come in with a smart **** post. You're a troll and I have no patience for trolls so get over it and yourself.

Did Jstas hack MacLeod's computer?
-Cody

exalted512

And if you think you can hear the difference between amplifiers, I invite you to win $10,000.

http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm
-Cody

MacLeod

exalted512 wrote: »

Did Jstas hack MacLeod's computer?
-Cody

Obi John has taught me well. :biggrin:

exalted512

Too bad this isnt 2006 when the car audio side was still 'the dark side' of the forum...haha.
-Cody

BeefJerky

exalted512 wrote: »

And if you think you can hear the difference between amplifiers, I invite you to win $10,000.

http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm
-Cody

This has been brought up before, and I still don't trust it. Why? $10,000.

If an individual is offering that, what incentive does he have to be honest and confirm a winner? I have no reason to trust him any more than you would trust me if I offered you a similar test with a monetary prize. In addition, he now charges to do the tests, and that makes me even more weary. It is, however, a nice way to make some extra money on the side.

Honestly, I'd be much more inclined to do this test at a PolkFest or something along those lines, with no money involved and simply conducted with good people who enjoy the hobby. I don't need the money, and it makes me weary in terms of an honest test being run.

Also, I would like to note that Mr. Clark himself admits that the lack of winner doesn't actually prove that there are not differences between amplifiers.

KrazyMofo24

I just don't agree with the broad statement of all amps sounding the same. Unless all amps just include the quality brands, and their mid to high level offerings than I can see the difference between those not making much a difference. Obviously I'm not an audio expert, but in home speakers, headphones, amps make a difference so I don't see why car audio would be much different. I know there are a lot more factors that affect the sound quality in car audio. However assuming all of those factors are the same going from a cheap amp to a good quality one should still sound different/better.


Pentoncm I would still put your MTX amp and my Alpine in the middle of the road considering all the cheap amps that are out there.

arun1963

exalted512 wrote: »

Did Jstas hack MacLeod's computer?
-Cody

Priceless