Erse Super Q 17mh 16awg mod to SDA-2B TL's

DarqueKnight

Michael8it wrote: »

Music is part science and part art. Stradivarius did not design his violins with a CAD program, yet nothing a CAD program can produce can equal a Stradivarius. Same holds true for 1940?s Martin guitars. Both of these were built by hand, and fine tuned by ear.

Antonio Stradivari and C. F. Martin served very long apprenticeships which began in their teen years. Both men were in their late 30's before they began producing the quality of instruments that built their reputations as master musical instrument craftsmen.

The modern-day craft of making fine musical instruments still requires ears with sensitivities developed by many years of training and practice, even with all the CAD tools available today.

Michael8it wrote: »

The bracing, the woods used, the type of glue, everything was taken into consideration. The basic template was there for both, but the finished product was all done by ear. The same is still true for custom built acoustic instruments.

That is true. Martin Guitar's website says it takes four months to make each guitar. It is inconceivable to me that any part of that process, particularly tone tuning, would be totally entrusted to someone who was just hired the same day.

Likewise, I find it inconceivable that someone would believe that they could accurately tune a loudspeaker crossover network by ear without significant amounts of ear training and without some understanding of the overall effects.

Michael8it wrote: »

I recently had a 1924 Martin guitar complete rebuilt. The Luthier that did the work did some ?fine tuning? after it was assembled, matching the bass and treble sides, and the 90 year old guitar sounded fantastic.

I would be interested in knowing how many years of practice it took that Luthier to get to the point where he could reliably fine tune guitars by ear.

Michael8it wrote: »

What does all this have to do with crossovers? I?m so glad you asked! Every component in the crossover is +/- 5%, even the drivers. You cannot change the drivers actual values, and you cannot change the capacitors. Even if you replace them, you are still dealing with tolerances. The only thing you have left to tune is the inductor. You can manually change that value, and in doing so, you may find a ?sweet spot? where all the tolerances of that speaker come together ?just right?.

You might find a sweet spot or you might make a mess. Every electronic component in a speaker affects everything else. Tuning with an untrained ear could cause serious frequency response anomalies. Such anomalies might not become apparent until different musical selections are played or until the speaker is moved to another room.

Michael8it wrote: »

SO although some would argue that hand tuning an inductor is not scientific, and that you are changing what the designer(s) intended, I would argue the opposite: Although you are not doing the math, and for that matter may not even understand the math, it is in fact scientific.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with hand tuning as long as there is an awareness of what the reasonable tuning limits are, there is an awareness of what the effects will be on the overall sound of the speaker and the individual doing the tuning has the experience and training required to make accurate judgments.

Michael8it wrote: »

In my 12B?s, I have 5 to 7 components in each driver chain, all with +/- 5% tolerances. That equals a total of a 25% total potential variance.

The total potential variance would be the average of the variances of the components. If 7 components have a variance of 5%, the variance of the system would be (7 x 0.05)/7 = 0.05. I imagine that a speaker system that varied +/- 25% from its nominal value would sound quite terrible.

Michael8it wrote: »

You may be .01 or even .1 (or more) off of what the ?spec? is, but if you ear tells you it works, that is the final authority.

Again, before the ear can become that final authority, it must also be tuned by training and experience for accurate results.

The best high end audio companies have highly educated and experienced engineering staff. They use the best of modern design tools and manufacturing methods. They also use the trained ear as the final measurement in the "voicing" of their audio products.

When I first got into audio I had no appreciation for things like image weight, image focus, detailed tactile sensation, sound stage layering, and bass articulation. I developed a sensitivity to, and appreciation of, those performance parameters over time. Initially, I was happy with just clear sound and a generous sized sound stage with decent imaging. The point I am making is that unwinding inductors by ear may result in pleasing sound in one area of performance, but something else, like imaging characteristics, or noise performance, might be thrown off. For example, if I were to start unwinding my Solen inductors, the mechanical noise abatement features would be compromised.

DarqueKnight

audiocr381ve wrote: »

Should I not change out strings on my guitar because the designer built the instrument with a gauge he preferred? I bought it, I can do what I want with it right? If I wanted to paint my Polks green, I could right? What if I like it better that way? Just because my truck performs better with city tires doesn't mean I'm not gonna put mud-tires on it for off-road use.

Of course you can do any lawful thing you want to do with your personal property. If the goal is "tuning to taste", then do whatever sounds good. However, if the goal is performance enhancement toward what the designer originally intended, then certain constraints must be respected. Those constraints are usually provided by the manufacturer and sometimes by others who have significant modification experience.

"Doing what you want" without experienced advisement can sometimes lead to problems. For example, you noted in your Cardas binding post thread that you experienced some difficulty soldering wires to the Cardas posts. The finish on the Cardas posts requires high amounts of heat. A 15 or 40 watt pencil won't cut it. I use an 800 watt Weller gun.

If your binding post wires haven't popped off already, there is a high probability they will do so in the future. If you give them a slight tug, you may find that they will come right off. They might come off or come partially off simply during the wire twisting that occurs during reinstallation.

Michael8it

DK - I am not arguing with any of your responses to my post. My purpose for the post was to bring a bit balance to what appeared to me to be an unbalanced argument (pardon the audio parlance). If the OP wants to tinker with his own inductor, have at it! It's his gear, it's his money, it's his time. Tinker away, post your results, and enjoy.

BTW - 4 months for a Martin is for 'factory'. If you want handmade custom guitars, have patience (and a big budget). The Luthier that rebuilt my '24 O-18K took a year to do it.

Is your 'average joe' going to build a Martin or a Violin like Stradivarius did? No, but in the element of tinkering with an inductor you can certainly tell between 'way off' and 'real good'.

evhudsons

When my wife has a bad day, I put on some dance hall with my upgraded system, pluck a bit along with it and my 45 year old harmony acoustic. I unwind her just until she's just in the right sweet spot, and then I go with that. I can tell the perfect sweet spot and tight bass by the tone and resonance of her voice as she asks for more music.

My ears are still evolving.

I'm holding out ordering inductors as the debates continue. I installed my external Parasound hca1500 amp.
Mortal words can not begin to describe the difference! Needless to say I'm no longer worried about driving the inductors, I just want to drive the right ones for my setup. Do you think that one type of inductor may be better for a particular SDA? For instance the crs+may sound better with a solen, 2.3 with an erse, srs with northcreek? I'm just making up the matching of course just to make my question clearer.

Mr. Bubbles

In my 12B?s, I have 5 to 7 components in each driver chain, all with +/- 5% tolerances. That equals a total of a 25% total potential variance.

The total potential variance would be the average of the variances of the components. If 7 components have a variance of 5%, the variance of the system would be (7 x 0.05)/7 = 0.05. I imagine that a speaker system that varied +/- 25% from its nominal value would sound quite terrible.

The total potential variance would actually be more dependent on the circuit in question depending on whether the components are in series or parallel and how their values may or may not add together for a total summation of that circuit. The theoretical variance would be as DK described but in reality this may or may not be the case depending on the circuit.

For example, if I were to start unwinding my Solen inductors, the mechanical noise abatement features would be compromised.

As much as i almost hate to, I agree with DK here. In his example any loosening on the windings will effect the mechanical noise abatement properties of a coil. I personally would not attempt this with the Solens due to their cost, but with the Erse inductors the price is low enough to play with and not loose too much if one does go too far. Especially if done the way i understand the Oldman did it by not cutting the wire from the inductor until after the unwinding process was done and listened to. this way at least the windings could be re-wrapped if the response started to change in a negative way, however this still would not place the coil back as it originally was in relation to it's mechanical noise potential.

Overall, i believe if the speakers are yours and you want to tune them then by all means enjoy. You could screw something up or you could make them much better. Much better is naturally, not an empirical value but, if you own the speakers and like them better, then that is the point of you owning them; your pleasure. This may effect their re-sale value to someone else in the future as their intentions may be different than yours, but as long as it's yours do what you want with it.

OldmanSRS

The Erse is not encapsulated. The outer turns are partially covered with black tape. 15 turns equated to about 1/2" of the 4" coil. If desired, the turns can be rewound carefully keeping the windings tight and next to each other and the coil re-taped. The optimum tuning method is not to remove more than a few turns at a time to avoid having to rewind them if you go too far.

IF you sell the speakers, remove the Erse and reconnect the stock inductors if desired.

Mr. Bubbles

The optimum tuning method is not to remove more than a few turns at a time to avoid having to rewind them if you go too far.

Agreed completely.

Oldman, I like your idea and process of how you performed this mod in your speakers. I plan to try this at some point in the near future, but I am currently looking towards Christmas for my girls. I've been enjoying myself with all my equipment and i want to be sure they get to have all the enjoyment they can during the season ahead. Even though this is an inexpensive mod, i am pretty tapped and my family always comes first.

DarqueKnight

evhudsons wrote: »

My ears are still evolving.

Mine are too.

evhudsons wrote: »

Needless to say I'm no longer worried about driving the inductors, I just want to drive the right ones for my setup. Do you think that one type of inductor may be better for a particular SDA?

No. I think a particular inductor may sound more pleasing than another depending on individual taste. The only three specifications for the large SDA inductor replacement are (1) substantially lower DCR than the stock part, (2) a high saturation point (if using steel core inductor) and (3) an amp that is comfortable with the lowered speaker impedance.

evhudsons wrote: »

For instance the crs+may sound better with a solen, 2.3 with an erse, srs with northcreek? I'm just making up the matching of course just to make my question clearer.

SDA's of a particular generation have similar sonic signatures. Therefore, if you like the sound of a particular brand/type of inductor in a pair of CRS+'s, you would probably like them in 2.3's and up. I tried Northcreek and Solen in my TL modified CRS+'s and 1.2TL's. I preferred the Solens in my CRS+'s for the same reasons I preferred them in my 1.2TL's.

headrott

You may have posted this in your review of the Solen inductor mod thread Raife, but what sonic attributes did you prefer of the Solen inductor over the Northcreek one?

Greg

DarqueKnight

SDA SRS 1.2TL Solen Inductor Listening Evaluations


SDA CRS+ Solen Inductor Listening Evaluations

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evhudsons

Good question. So far I'm leaning towards the Solen based on reviews and cost, but cost is less important now than reviews of quality sound. I bought my CRS+ to listen to quality music, finer details and nuances, not to wake the dead. I got a hold of some demo audio files with 24bit recordings of jazz, vocals, and classical music. So something along those lines is the sound I look for. And if that sounds great, Rock sounds great too.

Thanks for the informative replies DK, they are appreciated! My ears are loving this!

evhudsons

Wow, that was quick! Yeah boyeeee, got some reading to do!

evhudsons

I'm pulling the trigger in Solen's. The erse is easier on the wallet, but Solen's I think are a better match for the crs+ and I'm sure I will be happy with them.

Thanks DarqueKnight.

I haven't had time to review having a high current amp, but it was a major step in the right direction. All these mods came to life with quality and matched feeding.