So upset, need recommendations please!

DemonAstroth

So I had my perfect set up:

Polk SR6500 (running active)
1 10" Infinity Kappa perfect sub
Alpine 5 channel PDX-5
Eclipse CD7200 mkII with the Ipod adapter.


I was running 3-way on my tiny Audi tt. Everything was great until, change of battery lead to HU resetting to not having crossovers to volume being loud as 4 way to front left tweeter blowing. I now get a pretty ugly hiss.

I only use the tweeters with a 4khz pass filter and a pretty steep slope (12 or 18db/oct), so I need to find a replacement. Of course finding an SR replacement will be next to impossible, but if you know of a decent (hopefully silk) tweeter that would do the job, please let me know. I do not intend on getting rid of the SR mids, they are fantastic... amazing, so they must stay. I just need a tweeter replacement.

Any ideas?

pentoncm

If you want a ring radiator, you could look into Scanspeak or HAT L1R2pro.

Silk, I have the MM tweeters and I really like them. They shouldn't be too expensive to get from Polk.

MacLeod

Get the Vifa ring radiator tweeters on Madisound. They're like $25 and pretty close to the SR's.

pentoncm

Nevermind the HAT tweeter, that one goes for like $500. Go for the bargain.

MacLeod

$500?! WAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA! That is the height or ridiculous'ness. The Scans are barely worth half that and they're the best tweets on the planet.

Those Vifa RR's are great tweeters. I'd actually planned on using them for competition but figured I'd go all out and get the Scans.

$500. LMFAO.

pentoncm

Mac,

How are your 3" Scanspeak domes working out with your three way? Considering going to a 4 inch woofer format yet? I can't believe how low the Scanspeak 4 inch illuminators Fs is. Fs under 100Hz, Outrageous! You could probably safely run them down to at least 250Hz if not 200Hz.

MacLeod

I'm running Morel 3" domes and Scan Illuminator tweeters. Can't afford Illuminator mids. I like the Morels ok I guess. I'm having trouble getting them to play midrange well but that could be more an issue with the shape of he dash/windshield and not so mug the mids themselves.

Still, I'm thinking I'd rather have a good set of 4's in the kicks.

pentoncm

4 inch in the kicks and tweets in the A pillar would be awesome. If you could get some 4's that would be able to extend well to 5 or 6.3kHz that would be a nice bonus as well.

MacLeod

These Scanspeak tweeters have made a believer out of me that you can run tweets down lower than 4 KHz and be ok.

Id like to do something like an Altima with 6" midbass in the doors playing from like 40-315 then have some good 4's in the doors playing from 315 up to 2.5K or maybe 3.2K and then let the tweeters take over from there mounted in the A pillars.

I dont know why but I just cant like the dash mounted speaker options. I think the problem is that for judging Ive got the seat leaning very far back but when driving Im much closer to the dash and speakers and maybe thats why it doesnt sound that great to me. I just think kicks are a better place for mids.

pentoncm

There is some debate out there as to where to cross midrange and tweeter. One side is that you should cross low around 2-3kHz to raise the stage. The reasoning against this is that you are splitting the imaging frequencies between the midrange and the tweeter if you do this.The other side is that if you can extend the crossover to 5 -6kHZ, all of the imaging comes from the midrange thus giving you a better more cohesive center image. I haven't tried this but many people on Team Hybrid post about doing this and they seem to win competitions quite a bit. If I were to go with a high end midrange I would try to get one that had the ability to cleanly cover 5-8 kHz to leave the option open and play around with things. I think that running midbass up to 315 is a little high from what I've read. I think 200Hz to 250Hz is more common.But hey, I'm new to even a two way active setup so I still have a lot to learn in terms of on hands experience.

arun1963

Like Mac, I'm now a firm believer in running tweets in the 2-3khz range, with tweeters dash level or higher. The Scans are brilliant at this. The HAT usp that's tom tommed on all forums is their ability to play well upto 5khz. Big deal the SR 6.5 does that with ease too.

I am sure that one day I will pull the trigger on a processor and the Scan Illuminator and run a three way. However even with a 3 way I will not run the midrange into 5-6khz, even though the mid can do it. I will run the sr6.5 from like 50-300 and let the Illuminator run from 2-300 till 3khz and let the tweeter take over from there. I was also from the school that you need as many octaves as possible from a driver. Not any longer. A good 4" driver will play the 300-3khz range better than a good 6.5" driver.

Don't believe everything you read on the net, unless you've either tried it yourself or it comes from someone you trust implicitly. You'll figure this one out over time. I know that team HAT hasn't really won much at MECA. They seem to do better in the other leagues.

pentoncm

Oh I figured out the weird levels on the sub. It's my bad I wasn't thinking straight when I posted. So my front right speaker is still at polk getting exchanged so I'm only running the left side. Well the numbers I was giving you were from the Bit Ten and the reason that the sub was set so low was because I am only running the left side. When tuning with the program on the computer there isn't a balance function so the sub output isn't reduced if one or more channels are muted. When I use the remote and balance to the left, the output of the sub is cut in half. When considering what I have set on the remote the sub is in the range of -6db to -10db for most material.

MacLeod

Yeah I don't like anything higher than 4K for the mids. I see the logic behind having as many octaves coming from the mids as possible but a mid that can play midrange well can't play highs well. 3-4 always seems to be the sweet spot. I'm on my 3rd car in SQ competition and I always end up with a 3-4K as my crossover.

I don't know why Team Hybrids never does well in MECA. They've quit competing there so I guess we'll never know. Its a LOT harder to win in MECA than other leaues. Install can take you a long way in IASCA where its SQ only in MECA and you've got 3 judges at major shows instead of just 1 like the other orgs. Scott Buwalda is a big IASCA guy and has won a billion championships there so its no surprise that his team does better in that org. Not saying one is better than the other, they're just different. Kinda like NASCAR and Indy car. They're both racing but different approaches.

DemonAstroth

Thanks for your replies. I will go for the $50/pair VIFA ring radiator tweeters. Just a quick question though, is it the first ones on the page? http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/ring-radiator-tweeters/

From what I recall they look very similar to the SR's, which would make for an easier installation I hope.

Also, it's funny how the convo progressed, as those were my next questions. While I"m waiting, how high can I run the mids so as to minimize the frustrating hiss? It seems my ears weren't crazy, for I like 4k the best as the cutoff. The one thing I don't understand well is how steep should I use the slope? What are the benefits of a steep slope over let's say 6db/oct?

Once I get the tweeters, I"m really hoping to be able to tune the best. Unfortunately, I'm leaving the tweets in the stock location, which is merely 2 inches higher than the mids within the doors.

arun1963

Go for this one. Yes, they are very similar to the SR tweets. IIRC the SR tweets were also made by Vifa, so it's basically the same tweet.

A couple of things about the RR tweeters. Keep them both more on axis that you would with normal tweets. If You look at the FR graph you will notice, that the off axis tweet starts rolling off around 8khz and by 16khz is about 10 db down from the more on axis one. RR's have very narrow almost laser like dispersion, so play around with the angles on both X and Y axis. The other thing about the RR's is that they have great high end extension. They are great for that 'airy' sound. But they don't do well crossed below ~4khz.

I use steep slopes on all my drivers. It gives me better clarity and imaging. The SR 6.5 mid will play up to 5khz without a problem. But I would cross the mid and tweet at ~4khz with both drivers on steep slopes. 24db or higher if you have the option. Same applies at the sub/mid crossover. I have my sub cut at 50hz on a 36db slope and I wish I could do like a 48db slope. The mid is hp at 50 on a 24db slope.

If you have time alignment I would definitely look at mounting the tweets dash level or higher. Your hight cues are from frequencies `1.5-2khz and higher. Since most of this is going to be played by your tweet, place the tweet higher and then use TA to set arrival times. This will give you better stage height.

DemonAstroth

Thanks.

I did get the ones from your link, and I'll be awaiting their arrival.

I will not mess with different locations for the tweeters. I had stock A-Pillar tweeters in my Infiniti before and though nice, I don't think it merits cutting holes in the new car when in tuning I've done quite well. (At least to my ears)

So the plan again is to keep the cutoff at 4K or 3.2K, but I will try to play with a much steeper slope.

The mid SR's I usually have down to 80hz, and sometimes I can go to 63hz. Unfortunately the doors start rattling when I crank up the volume at 63hz. I have some dynamat spare, maybe while I install the tweeters I'll put some of that dampening, it may help with the rattling. If not, I'll stay at 80hz.

So, without changing tweeter location, is there a way to raise the soundstage? The aiming of the tweeters will help, but I'm curious about tuning wise? Any tips on that?

pentoncm

DemonAstroth wrote: »

So, without changing tweeter location, is there a way to raise the soundstage? The aiming of the tweeters will help, but I'm curious about tuning wise? Any tips on that?

One common misconception is that you need to have your tweeters up high to have a high stage. Although your stage will be higher if the tweeters are above the dash, you can have mids/tweeters mounted low and as long as its EQ'd your stage will rise to side mirror/top of dash.

My tweeters are mounted right next to my mids and pointed up and I really like the sound of it. The stage is at ac vent/top of dash level and extends mirror to mirror.

The key with EQ is to get everything balanced. On your near side for instance you are going to have peaks in the midbass and midrange areas that will mask your 2kHz to 4kHz region coming from the woofers thus bringing your stage down. By properly cutting those out, your stage will rise.

MacLeod

Nah, you need to get your tweeters up high to get your stage spread evenly. You'll get a lot of it up high with tweets in the kicks but it will rainbow.

Now that's not that big of a deal. Chances are you'll get BETTER tonality with the tweeters next to the mids like that so the slight skewing of the stage's height is worth it for the better sound you'll get.

Honestly, if you don't have a lot of processing power, I think its best to mount the mids and tweets together in the kicks. Because without time alignment and proper EQ level matching, its not gone a be easy to get them to gel with the mids.

arun1963

Tonality with imaging is a wonderful experience. You can still have tonality with lesser imaging, but getting them both right is something else.

With the bit ten, there is no reason for you not to shoot for imaging as well. You will love the experience. Get the tweets dash level or higher. The only reason I have mine on the dash and not the pillars, is cause I'm twisted about having the axis right and I don't trust anyone here to get the angles just right on pillars. I have them stuck on the dash in a primitive install, but one where I can play with the axis.


If you have dsp you really do want the drivers giving you the imaging cues mounted up higher than where you have them.

pentoncm

So does anybody ever run mids/tweets in kicks anymore in competition, or has everyone switched to moving the tweeter up high?

arun1963

I think that setup was from the pre dsp competition days. Mids in kicks was good for pld and tweets close to the mids helped with tonality.

Get them high, and forget what I said about the axis being critical. It was that way with the p-80 and limited bands of eq but with the bit ten you can eq out the issues of not having them on perfect axis. I have to get used to thinking differently for the sound to improve.

MacLeod

The mids and tweets in the kicks was big in the older days when everything was judged from both seats. With that, time alignment doesn't work cause you need it to sound good from both seats at the same time. So you had to get both sets of speakers as far away and equal as possible. Otherwise you've got 4 different pathlengths at least just for 2 channels and you can't time align one driver without hurting the other.

Nowadays everything is judged from just the drivers side so the goal is to make the one seat sound as good as possible so you can put drivers in different spots and time align and level match them.

So current systems sound better from the drivers side but older systems sounded better from both sides.

pentoncm

Honestly, I like the sound of my woofers and tweeters close together. I hear a little bit of a rainbow effect but nothing that bothers me while listening. When I played Focal disc #2, the sax moved from far left to far right and as far as I could tell, it stayed basically the same height. There may be a bit of rainbow on drums, when drums are hit on my far right and far left they are somewhat lower then when they are hit left-center and right-center. I don't know if this is a rainbow effect or how it is supposed to sound. It kind of sounds like I am in the drum kit playing which is pretty cool.

It doesn't sound like the amount of rainbow is high in my car as the seat is pretty low. I can imagine that in an SUV or vehicle where you sit higher up it would be a bigger issue.

arun1963

The toughest things to change are mindsets. Over a period of time, all humans learn to respond to the same stimuli with a patterned response. Think of an event or a series of them and you will see a pattern to your response. Happens with everyone. Your responses could be tailored on your experiences or what you've read, heard and seen. That is left brain behavior. Again, were talking everyone.

The catch is to at least leave the door open to the right half which questions, what if there's a better way. Thanks to the crappy environment there are very few, a handful if you consider the universe of those on all the car audio forums, who really know how to get 'the' sound in a car. The rest either don't know or only know it in parts. Not the whole.

Talking to you gives a great sense of deja vu. Been there and followed that pattern......far as car audio goes

Seriously though, you owe it to your 'senses' to keep an open mind. If you want to go this route then you have to get the placement right before you kick in with the dsp.

Placement was king in the older days. It still is, just different. Keep an open mind that's all. Chances are you know a fair bit, so learn to build on it. If that means letting go of what you believe in, so be it.

pentoncm

I see my current setup as a learning tool (while getting pretty good sound). I plan on going all out when I get a new car in 5-7 years, going with 3 way up front. In that case I would do mid bass in the doors, 3-4inch mids in kicks, and tweeters up high in sails/A-pillars. I will likely choose my next car for its car audio potential.

How do you guys feel about the HAT people who run 3or4 inch mid drivers in kicks without tweeters? Are they crazy? Not just talking about HAT, but also including the other high end companies making these bandwidth drivers, are there mid drivers that can deliver up to 10 or 12 kHz? Theoretically if you had such an awesome driver that was fully capable in this region and you put the mid in the kick and tweeters in A-pillar, but you crossed at 5-6kHz, would there still be a rainbow effect?

MacLeod

There are full range drivers out there in the 3 and 4 inch range. Fountek makes a 3" thats well thought of. Most people cant hear anything above 14-16KHz anyway so you dont need a speaker that can play to 40 KHz like some of these tweeters brag about.

As long as you have all your drivers in the floor board, youre gonna get some rainbowing, just no other way around it. May not be much, but itll be there. Especially in the lower midrange sections like the lower chords of a guitar. There isnt much high end to bring the image up so youll hear it all in the floor.

Its a balancing act. You want your midrange to play as many octaves as possible to keep things all nice and together but you want your tweeters if mounted high, to play as many octaves as possible so itll bring the stage up nice and high. So you gotta trade off one for the other til you find the right balance.

pentoncm

Yeah, it really doesn't bother me. Whats important to me is the fact that my system sounds a million times better now that tweeters are angled and all of the processing power that I have. I just weigh tonality a little more than perfect imaging.

MacLeod

As do I. I'd much rather have a better sounding system than one that images perfectly. Besides, the only downside is slight rainbowing. That's not really that big of a deal. You can still get great staging and very focused imaging.

arun1963

You're right. You will eventually hit a point where you will wind up choosing between better tonality vs better imaging. Once there, ofcourse one would take tonality over imaging.

DemonAstroth

Well, I don't know how much processing power I have with my HU (CD7200mkII), but I suppose I will be asking questions once the tweeters are installed and I'm trying to equalize it. They should arrive tomorrow, I'm just hoping the install won't be a PITA.

arun1963

I think the Eclipse 7200 is at par with the Alpine 9887. It lets you go active, gives you time alignment for each driver and a 7-band eq. However I dont think it gives you seperate L/R. In real terms, what you get with the 7200 is enough to dial in great sound.