To sub, or not to sub???

naturallight

This is a strict 2 channel stereo set up. So i'm not sure a sub is worth while. The speakers are Rti 12's.
Now 95% of the music played on these..I don't feel a sub is really needed. On some music, the 1812 being the extreem, and dependent on the volume. The 12's are at there limit of what the bottom end will put out.

I have never had a sub before, and not really sure how they work. I was looking at the DSW pro 600. Will the sub really take away those bottom freq's, free up the 12's, of that deep bottom end?

If most of the music played on the 12's is fine to begin with, would you even know the sub is on? Dose it add more to the bottom end that you can feel, in just playing music, or would you not even know the sub was on? Would you have to turn up the volume on the sub, to give you, what some may say is an over exagerated bass sound, to even know if it was on?

On an HT setup, i can see it. On a strict 2 channel stereo system...not so sure it's worth the money. Any thoughts on this???

leadfoot1

I would say no sub with th Rti 12's. Can't see you gaining much if anything. Subs in a 2ch system always seem ot make it sound kind of "sloppy" to me. Just my .02

If you use the same system for movies then I would get one and just turn it off for 2ch listening.

Ern Dog

My experience is that a well designed and executed sub definitely adds to the 2 channel experience. My sub is integrated seamlessly and you wouldn't even know that it is on. It doesn't draw attention to itself. I listen to lots of different types of music and the sub helps to create a foundation and realistic ambiance. It is essential for me when I listen to powerful full scale orchestral music and rock and any music with lots of drums/bass. I hope you try a sub, because you won't know what you are missing until you try it.

My speakers have four 8" woofers and I listen to them full range. I set my sub crossover at 45 hz and use a sub EQ to get it dialed in.

Canonshooter

IMO, it really depends on the sub. I have experience with three; PSW125, PSW111 and a SVS 20-39PC Plus.

If you look at the specs of the two Polk subs, they really don't go much lower - if at all - then a good floor-standing speaker such as the RTi12. They can augment the quantity of bass, but not really improve on the quality of the bass.

The SVS is another beast altogether. While some music purists may dismiss it as an HT-only sub, it has no shortage of quality, well-defined bass that can enhance just about any music/HT system. Simply put, there is zero comparison between the SVS and the PSW125, the only other 12-inch sub I have tried first-hand. The depth and definition of the bass it produces has to be heard to be believed, all the way down to house-shaking 12 hz (which can only be felt, not heard).

The SVS also has plenty of control capability for tuning and matching to the main speakers, so I have laways been able to make it sound right with any speakers I have used it with. It's big, not very attractive but truly has to be heard to be appreciated.

So, if you're considering anything other than a very capable sub, you'll just end up with more bass with little to no improvement in the quality of the bass.

Though the 20-39PC Plus is discontinued, here is a smaller (current) model worth a look; PC12-NSD DSP. This one would add new dimension to the RTi12s!

naturallight

Ern Dog..I think your comment has merit. The 12's are wonderfull speakers....but in some cases could use some help. Mostly on Classical large scale music. The fact that your running a 2K sub, may be the killer. I can only afford the DSW pro 600. But your anti-mode eq......MAY...make up for any shortcomings in the sub. But thats a guess. The 12's are great, but you can't expect the bottom, as to compared to a set of old Bozak, large cabinet speakers that have 2x12's in them. Maybe that is the solution.

EndersShadow

naturallight wrote: »

Ern Dog..I think your comment has merit. The 12's are wonderfull speakers....but in some cases could use some help. Mostly on Classical large scale music. The fact that your running a 2K sub, may be the killer. I can only afford the DSW pro 600. But your anti-mode eq......MAY...make up for any shortcomings in the sub. But thats a guess. The 12's are great, but you can't expect the bottom, as to compared to a set of old Bozak, large cabinet speakers that have 2x12's in them. Maybe that is the solution.

I think the DSW would make you quite happy. The DSW line of subs has been given lots of praise by members in this forum for use with music in a 2 channel setup.

I also dont see your gear listed. That might make a difference as well if you are not running a decent AVR/amp.

cfrizz

I have the DSW pro 400 and it is great for both music and movies. I think you would be quite happy with it added to your system.

I have always used a sub when playing music, using one lets the speakers fully concentrate on the range they were designed to handle, thereby making everything a lot clearer with better separation.

naturallight

Sorry about that. Adcom pre, Jolida 100a, Old Onkyo M-504 dual mono block. Plenty of power and the 12's sound great as they are. Had the upgrade bug. Just thinking a sub would give it that extra little kick.

But without the sub EQ....may not sound that great.

EndersShadow

naturallight wrote: »

Sorry about that. Adcom pre, Jolida 100a, Old Onkyo M-504 dual mono block. Plenty of power and the 12's sound great as they are. Had the upgrade bug. Just thinking a sub would give it that extra little kick.

But without the sub EQ....may not sound that great.

The MicroPro 2000 and up have EQ built in. Polks ebay site has both a 3000 and 4000 for sale right now.

nwohlford

naturallight wrote: »

Sorry about that. Adcom pre, Jolida 100a, Old Onkyo M-504 dual mono block. Plenty of power and the 12's sound great as they are. Had the upgrade bug. Just thinking a sub would give it that extra little kick.

But without the sub EQ....may not sound that great.

I would assume that you are using a 2-channel Adcom which does not have bass management, so I would think that adding a sub would not add much. Given how low the 12s go, there is not much room for a natural blend of a subwoofer just using the lowpass on the sub.

If you applied a high pass prior to amplification, then this would help relieve some stress from the amp and probably provide better quality bass (at least using something in the MicroPro line).

If you just want more bass, then a subwoofer will of course do it.

naturallight

Yeah, this is all old 2 channel equipment. I don't know anything about subs, nore how to work them into a 2 channel system. So as you say, may be a waste of time.
Was just looking to help out the 12's on the bottom end. Just to add a kick to the system. But this may be a waste of time and money.

If you need some bass management pre to make this work..forget it...LOL Seemed like a good idea at the time tho...LOL

naturallight

Maybe i don't get this at all. I thought if i took the output from the pre...plug that into the sub. Then go to the poweramp. The sub would then only send...X feq to the speakers thru the poweramp. ???

So..the bottom end would only go to the sub??? Is this wrong? Do i just don't get this, or what????

nwohlford

naturallight wrote: »

Maybe i don't get this at all. I thought if i took the output from the pre...plug that into the sub. Then go to the poweramp. The sub would then only send...X feq to the speakers thru the poweramp. ???

So..the bottom end would only go to the sub??? Is this wrong? Do i just don't get this, or what????

I believe on all the polk subs that the line level output is unfiltered. There are subs that will apply a high pass on the rca output. I don't know enough about them to make any suggestions, but perhaps somebody else can give you some ideas.

jbooker82

I would run a powered sub. Just get a desent one. How is running a powered sub seperate any different than running towers that have a built in powered sub? If anything the external powered sub doesnt have a space restraint, meaning the enclosure can be built to the proper specs. Vs. craming it in sideways in the bottom of a tower.

naturallight

On the face of this, it sounded like a good idea. The Polk DSW pro 660 is on sale on the ebay site. So for basically $360, seemed like a good upgrade. Like now i can knock the pictures off the walls..LOL I'm sure it's a very nice sub.

But since Adcom pre's don't have any bass management. To throw the 660 into the mix with the 12's. You would probably end up with a boomy mess, even with the sub set at the lowest HZ. The 12's at least on the spec's will go down to 18HZ....now i'm not sure they really can, but that is darn low.

The only way i can see this working..to make this sound right. I would have to get an outboard active bass management controller/cross-over, whatever you want to call it. Take the output from the pre. Feed the controller, which would then, only send the ..lets say 80HZ and below to the sub, then send the 80HZ and above to the poweramp running the 12's.

Thats the only way it makes sence to me...maybe i'm wrong???

rooftop59

Why not just use the speaker ins and outs on the sub? It has a built in crossover, not sure how low it goes but I know it goes way lower than 80. This generally provides good integration.

nhhiep

I am having the same rti12s running off the HK Signature 2.1 100x5 WPC in Biamp mode. So, technically I am pushing 200 w to each tower. When config to full range, it doesn't provide enough bass. So, I added a DefTech supercube I sub, cross at 60hz.

I know that the rti12's spec says that it will go very low (as low as many subs) but I think you need a lot more power to push that 3x7" woofers. sadly most AVRs can't do that.

It depends the type of music I'm listening to, sometime the sub doesn't even turn on.

if I were you, I'd add a PSW505 or BIC F12 sub to your system for just $200, cross at around 60-80hz. it would help our AVR powering the Rti12s better.

nwohlford

If you don't want to do the full bass management of something like the Velodyne SMS or NHT x2, you could just add a high pass filter (something like: http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/high-pass-filter.html). The other option would be a subwoofer the Def Tech Supercubes that do have a built-in high pass. Each method has some drawbacks, but one of them probably fits what you are looking for.

You could also look for a used amp that has a little more oomph for $300-400 and skip the sub.

deronb1

leadfoot1 wrote: »

I would say no sub with th Rti 12's. Can't see you gaining much if anything. Subs in a 2ch system always seem ot make it sound kind of "sloppy" to me. Just my .02

If you use the same system for movies then I would get one and just turn it off for 2ch listening.

I agree with you on the sloppiness in 2 ch. That said, I don't have enough power to properly power my Rti 12s (yet). I use my elite (110 wpc) to power the top half of the 12s and use an old Kenwood amp (155 wpc) to power the bottom half.

Not quite enough power to the bottom to get the most out of the 3 7s, so in 2 ch I have the AVR set to large with the xover set to 50hz and use two subs set to 0db to round out the sound. Sounds pretty good, but not that punchy low I would get with more power.

Nice thing is for HT, I have the memory 2 setting on the AVR set to small and 80hz and only use the top half of the 12s powered by the AVR with the subs doing a lot of the work. I think it sounds better for HT and I don't have to power the amp on all the time. It's almost like having two systems in one.

I'll probably change my tune when I can get enough power, but for now, seems to be the best solution.

naturallight

I have the power to push the 12's. To be honest i think the 12's put out more bottom end then any tower type speaker i can think of. Even the LSi15's altho some may take umbridge at that statement. It was really just overkill, i saw the DSW660's on sale....jumped at the thought of having and extra 500 watts for the bottom end. But not knowing anything about subs, was rather a foolish jump. With some research into this, not going to work too well without a really good (hi dollor) Bass management/cross-over controller.

The 12's by themselves with a good high current/power amp, will put out more bass then most people would need.
It was just pretty much overkill on my part, and can't be done..RIGHT..without alot of money thrown into the mix.

jbooker82

I am listing to music right now with my RTI A's at full range, and a DSW Pro 660Wi. Sound is made by moving air. More smaller dirvers do not always out preform a single larger one. Especially when the single driver is in an enclosure designed for low frequencys.

The DSW PRO **** Wi series subs are really nice. They sound great with music as well has home theater.

naturallight

I'm sure the DSW660 is a great sub...thats the reason i was looking at it. But you have some type of bass management..I don't. To throw the 660 at the 12's with out a really good base mangement/ cross-over controller. Is pretty much a waste of time. The 12's are going to fight with the 660....just going to be a muddy mess.

To make this work, and make it work right....you pretty much have to divide the feq's.....send the maybe 100HZ and below, to the 660...the rest get sent to the poweramp feeding the 12's. At least in theory. But there may be some time delay in this mix...so maybe that has to be compensated for.

On the face of it..sounds like a good idea...hey a 500watt sub..can't hurt. But for a 2 channel stereo system, just not that easy, to make it sound good anyway. Some 2 channel stereo speakers..pretty much have to have a sub to sound good. The low end ML stuff...not dollor wise buy the way, with the 1 8" speaker stuffed in that bottom cab, there is just no bottom end with those speakers. Without a sub....the speakers are just so far lacking it's sick.

The 12's, with the right power..really don't need a sub.....I was just looking for overkill. Kind of shake glasses off the bar type thing. But as it turns out....not easy to do with a strick 2 channel system....and you need some very decent equipment to do it.

PrazVT

+1 on the 12s not needing a sub if you have a nice powerful amp. I could listen to my A7s in 2ch mode w/o a sub all day long when they were hooked to a Parasound A21. I'd rather spend the money on powering the 12s than adding a sub - for that particular speaker for 2ch usage.

nwohlford

naturallight wrote: »

I'm sure the DSW660 is a great sub...thats the reason i was looking at it. But you have some type of bass management..I don't. To throw the 660 at the 12's with out a really good base mangement/ cross-over controller. Is pretty much a waste of time. The 12's are going to fight with the 660....just going to be a muddy mess.

To make this work, and make it work right....you pretty much have to divide the feq's.....send the maybe 100HZ and below, to the 660...the rest get sent to the poweramp feeding the 12's. At least in theory. But there may be some time delay in this mix...so maybe that has to be compensated for.

On the face of it..sounds like a good idea...hey a 500watt sub..can't hurt. But for a 2 channel stereo system, just not that easy, to make it sound good anyway. Some 2 channel stereo speakers..pretty much have to have a sub to sound good. The low end ML stuff...not dollor wise buy the way, with the 1 8" speaker stuffed in that bottom cab, there is just no bottom end with those speakers. Without a sub....the speakers are just so far lacking it's sick.

The 12's, with the right power..really don't need a sub.....I was just looking for overkill. Kind of shake glasses off the bar type thing. But as it turns out....not easy to do with a strick 2 channel system....and you need some very decent equipment to do it.

Unless you have other plans for the sub, you may want to try out the HSU high pass filter that I linked above (looks to be $110 with shipping). The main disadvantage to it is that you only get to pick two crossover points, so you can't play around with the system as much as if you had a continuos crossover. You would want to check that the built-in crossover on the dsw660 is a 2nd order crossover. If you can find a used NHT x2, that would give you a little more flexibility, but I am guessing they are hard to find.

I personally just use an old 5.1 pre right now that has a built in crossover (non-adjustable) with large bookshelfs (CRS+s and LSI bookshelfs).

naturallight

NO..I agree....you don't REALLY need a sub with the 12's with the right power....I have the right power..pretty much kicks ****...big chest feel. More bass then most people would want.

I was just thinking i could go overkill..like i said knock glasses off the bar or something. But just buying the 660..is not going to do that...just make a mess out of the sound. To do that you have to throw alot of bucks at the right controller to do that....not what i have the money for, nor looking to do.

Dawgfish

I used to run a pair of RTI-12s in my HT setup with two DSW PRO 600s. I agree with what most of the others have said here, with the right amplification the RTI-12s really don't need a sub, especially for music. At one point a tried bi-amping my RTI-12s. The bass was so strong with the RTI-12s bi-amped that most of the time I turned my subs way down or even turned them off. There where times that I was watching movies and the bass was so strong, I forgot that I had the subs turned off. The 12s are capable of some great bass with the right amplification.

naturallight

No ..i agree...i was just looking for over kill. I was just downstairs..playing Zack stuff.....pretty much you can't put the volume control past 10 1/2 oclock...the bass pounding is far more then most people would want.

I was just looking for over kill. If i had the right setup, with the 660 sub, pretty much you could not stay in the room..with the sub...just the 12's. alone...it's pretty abusive. Thats a 15X28 foot basement room.....

There is no need for a sub...only my insane feeling to upgrade, and blow peoples ears off....LOL

Ern Dog

Not sure what you consider a lot of money but you could get a Velodyne SMS-1 used for around $300. This would help get the sub dialed in and it has a built in crossover at 80 hz you could use too.

Dawgfish

naturallight wrote: »

No ..i agree...i was just looking for over kill. I was just downstairs..playing Zack stuff.....pretty much you can't put the volume control past 10 1/2 oclock...the bass pounding is far more then most people would want.

I was just looking for over kill. If i had the right setup, with the 660 sub, pretty much you could not stay in the room..with the sub...just the 12's. alone...it's pretty abusive. Thats a 15X28 foot basement room.....


There is no need for a sub...only my insane feeling to upgrade, and blow peoples ears off....LOL

I know where you are coming from. At one time I was running the RTI-12s as my front mains, with a set of RTI-10s as sides and RTI-8s as rear sourrounds. I had two CSI5s as my centers. Every speaker was individually amplified by an external amp and not the AVR. In addtion I had two DSW Pro 600s and a 400 hooked up. All together I had over 3000 honest to goodness watts playing in the system. Overkill yes, but it was incredible. I would put concert DVDs in and it was like I was sitting front row at the concert. I loved it, my neighbors on the other hand.......

nhhiep

Dawgfish wrote: »

I know where you are coming from. At one time I was running the RTI-12s as my front mains, with a set of RTI-10s as sides and RTI-8s as rear sourrounds. I had two CSI5s as my centers. Every speaker was individually amplified by an external amp and not the AVR. In addtion I had two DSW Pro 600s and a 400 hooked up. All together I had over 3000 honest to goodness watts playing in the system. Overkill yes, but it was incredible. I would put concert DVDs in and it was like I was sitting front row at the concert. I loved it, my neighbors on the other hand.......

isn't running 2 centers is a bad idea? I almost went that way because I could score an additional CSi5 on CL for $75, but almost everything in every forums said it's a bad idea.

Dawgfish

Like everything in this hobby it depends on the situation. Because of the way my HT was set-up I couldn't put my center in the traditional position so the center was set just to the right of the TV. I was always curious about the two center thing and like yourself, I always heard many people say it was a bad idea. I had to see for myself though and when a local AV store was going out of business, I had a chance to pick up another CSi5 for really cheap. I had one of them set up about two feet left of the tv and about 4 feet off the ground, and another set two feet to the right of the tv about 18 inches off the ground. Despite what everyone told me, it worked. I could hear dialogue much clearer with the two center set-up. You can see photos of this setup if you look at my system showcase photos. YMMV, but it worked for me.