Which DAC - Benchmark DAC1 or Musical Fidelity M1?

SpiceRoute

After reading Falconcry72's incredible thread comparing these two DACs, I was inspired to register. This is my first post. Like so many others, when I first listened to my friend's Benchmark DAC (my first and only experience listening to any DAC), my jaw dropped. It was, to quote one critic, "like a veil being lifted". When I heard the price ($995), I nearly croaked. The MF1 comes in at a third less. I listen to a lot of music and I do appreciate the $300 difference should not be the ultimate determining factor.

I have a very basic sound system. My transport is a Rotel RCD 1072, my receiver is a Kenwood KR-V9020 (I know its the weak link, but its here to stay for a while), speakers: Totem Mites. That's it.

On many cds, I get great sound. But, I would like something extra, something to take it to the next level (does that emotion strike any resonant chords out there?) And, something to play my iTune collection through (Macbook 3,1 - Leopard (not Snow Leopard) - with optical output. I've read the piece about the 16bit/24bit limitations with the MF1 - but am not deterred.)

The current sound is not overly bright. If I'm looking for extra highs or lows, I tweak the equalizer - it works quite well. I've also read the review that the MF 1 will not miraculously transform a weak system. Again, not deterred.

So, with the hope that the aficionados out there will offer some sound advice (did I actually say that?), which DAC should I get? (P.S. I would so appreciate your restraint in giving advice as to cables, pre-amps or anything with the word tube in it.) That being said, all thoughts are so appreciated in advice. P.S. Nice to be here. SpiceRoute

inspiredsports

SpiceRoute wrote: »

After reading Falconcry72's incredible thread comparing these two DACs, I was inspired to register. This is my first post. Like so many others, when I first listened to my friend's Benchmark DAC (my first and only experience listening to any DAC), my jaw dropped. It was, to quote one critic, "like a veil being lifted". When I heard the price ($995), I nearly croaked. The MF1 comes in at a third less. I listen to a lot of music and I do appreciate the $300 difference should not be the ultimate determining factor.

I have a very basic sound system. My transport is a Rotel RCD 1072, my receiver is a Kenwood KR-V9020 (I know its the weak link, but its here to stay for a while), speakers: Totem Mites. That's it.

On many cds, I get great sound. But, I would like something extra, something to take it to the next level (does that emotion strike any resonant chords out there?) And, something to play my iTune collection through (Macbook 3,1 - Leopard (not Snow Leopard) - with optical output. I've read the piece about the 16bit/24bit limitations with the MF1 - but am not deterred.)

The current sound is not overly bright. If I'm looking for extra highs or lows, I tweak the equalizer - it works quite well. I've also read the review that the MF 1 will not miraculously transform a weak system. Again, not deterred.

So, with the hope that the aficionados out there will offer some sound advice (did I actually say that?), which DAC should I get? (P.S. I would so appreciate your restraint in giving advice as to cables, pre-amps or anything with the word tube in it.) That being said, all thoughts are so appreciated in advice. P.S. Nice to be here. SpiceRoute

Welcome aboard!

My best bit of advice is that you go with what you think sounds best in your system.

If you make your decision on price alone you will most likely end up with regrets, AND you will ultimately end up spending more than the initial savings when you realize your mistake and do it over.

txcoastal1

Can you borrow your buddies Benchmark to demo

BlueFox

SpiceRoute wrote: »

On many cds, I get great sound. But, I would like something extra, something to take it to the next level (does that emotion strike any resonant chords out there?) And, something to play my iTune collection through (Macbook 3,1 - Leopard (not Snow Leopard) - with optical output. I've read the piece about the 16bit/24bit limitations with the MF1 - but am not deterred.)

Don't worry. iTunes the store only sells compressed music, not 24bit high res. The best that iTunes the software will do is 16bit/44K - CD quality. If you start downloading high-res then you have an issue. However, it would make more sense to upgrade you receiver to a pre and amp, upgrade your speakers, and get good cabling before going high-res.

falconcry72

Welcome to CP, SpiceRoute!:biggrin:

Good advice above about trying stuff in your own system, but I know that's not always possible.

I still have both DAC's, and still listen to both of them from time to time, so here's my take:

- Price is close enough that you shouldn't worry about it especially if you are willing to go used. You can pick up the Benchmark piece for under $700 any day of the week; the M1 is harder to find used.

- IMO, the overall quality of sound is equal on both DAC's, thought they do sound slightly different, and I mean slightly. The Benchmark is a little more forward, a little brighter; the M1 is a little more layed-back, a little smoother. Detail and dynamics are equal on both. It's a personal preference thing, so getting them in your rig is the best option.

- As far as using your computer as a source goes, don't use that optical out. Use a good external asynchronous USB to SPDIF converter. And if you're playing Mp3's, you're going to be very limited in ultimate quality of sound.

- To me, the decision is going to come down to their differing feature sets:

1) The M1 has a USB input. It's not asynchronous, and it has limited bit rate acceptance, but it's a USB input nonetheless, and the Benchmark doesn't have one.

2) The M1 has lights on the front that tell you what bit rate it's locked onto. This can be valuable when configuring a PC rig to make sure it's outputting the signal correctly, but only if you're playing files of varying bit rates.

3) The Benchmark has a 1/4" headphone output.

4) The Benchmark's volume can be set to calibrated or variable, so you could connect it directly to a power amp and use it as a volume control.


IMO, the USB input on the M1 is somewhat moot because you can use the MF V-link as a cheap, awesome piece with the Benchmark or any other DAC for USB playback. It is an added expense, though.

If you never ever use headphones, then the Benchmark's headphone out and volume control may be moot.



You should buy the Benchmark if:

- You ever use headphones.
- You want to experiment with it as a volume control connected to a poweramp.


You should buy the M1 if:

- You have to buy new, to save a few hundred bucks. (towards a power amp)
- You need its USB input/ bit rate indicators for a PC rig



If you can readily get your hands on and play with your buddies Benchmark, I'd say go with the M1, that way both of you can A/B them and see which sounds better in your rigs. Whichever one wins, you can sell the other one for very little, if any, loss, and buy another winner.

Don't look at this purchase as a permanent decision, look at it as a necessary experiment along the journey.



Also, you may be better off spending that grand on a preamp and amp. You can get a pretty sweet preamp and amp for that money, and it will make a much larger improvement in your system then adding a high end DAC will.

SpiceRoute

Thank you all for this wonderful advice and feedback. Unfortunately, it would be impossible to test the Benchmark. Falconcry, I am so glad you weighed in here, since you were my inspiration. Your keen insights are truly appreciated. It does sound like the M1 might be the better decision here given the usb option and I hardly use headphones. My only reservation is the "brighter" quality of the Benchmark which you discern. My ears like "bright". (Forgive my ignorance, but when using the DAC should I be tweaking the equalizer, or leave it off. Would that be a non-purist fix to boost the highs?).

One other plus for the Benchmark, is its apparent potential use as a pre-amp. Would I be getting a pre-amp and a DAC in one, or did I misinterpret that. The Kenwood (bite your tongues) amps and serves as a receiver. (The electronics are all in plain view in our living room. Space is limited and precious. None of any of this crap receives the slightest bit of sympathy from the Mrs. so adding any equipment has thinned what already is thin ice.)

Used Benchmarks do appear for sale fairly frequently, should I be concerned about an older model. Have their been significant improvements since the 2005 models.

Cheers, Spiceroute

tonyb

Another very good dac with a pre amp and headphone amp built in is the Burson HA160d. You can find them used as a demo unit for under a grand.

falconcry72

(Forgive my ignorance, but when using the DAC should I be tweaking the equalizer, or leave it off. Would that be a non-purist fix to boost the highs?).

I don't use EQ's. If your sound is grossly unlevel, there is a problem somewhere in the chain that needs fixing. If it's just that your speakers are too layed back for your tastes, then you need new speakers.

One other plus for the Benchmark, is its apparent potential use as a pre-amp. Would I be getting a pre-amp and a DAC in one, or did I misinterpret that.

Kind of. It's not a true preamp; it's just a volume control, so you'd be using it in the place of a preamp.

should I be concerned about an older model. Have their been significant improvements since the 2005 models.

There are newer versions out that include USB functionality and true preamp stages, but they cost significantly more. The original DAC-1 has not changed. I wouldn't be worried about it as long as you're buying from a reputible seller.

The electronics are all in plain view in our living room. Space is limited and precious. None of any of this crap receives the slightest bit of sympathy from the Mrs. so adding any equipment has thinned what already is thin ice

Dude, I hate to break it to you, but you need a preamp and amp. End of story. See if you can do something for your little lady that will equal a compromise; let her put up those new drapes she's always wanted or something.

At the end of the day, spending that money on an amp and preamp will be much more benefical to your sound. There's an Adcom GFA-545 in our flea market right now for 220 shipped. It will drive your mites beautifully.

steveinaz

A "little" correction; the DAC-1's (Base/USB/PRE, and HDR) are all "true preamplifiers." The base DAC-1, and DAC-1/USB only accept digital inputs however, where the DAC1/PRE and HDR also have an analog input set. Any model can be toggled from line level to preamplifier mode.

The USB/PRE/HDR models have the upgraded op-amps to address the forwardness sometimes mentioned with the base DAC-1. I've owned a base DAC-1, and now own a DAC1/PRE.

falconcry72

steveinaz wrote: »

A "little" correction; the DAC-1's (Base/USB/PRE, and HDR) are all "true preamplifiers." The base DAC-1, and DAC-1/USB only accept digital inputs however, where the DAC1/PRE and HDR also have an analog input set. ...

Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification!

SpiceRoute

falconcry72 wrote: »

There's an Adcom GFA-545 in our flea market right now for 220 shipped. It will drive your mites beautifully.

Taking your advice. Going for the Adcom. Now, you'll have to tell me how to hook 'em up when they arrive.

SpiceRoute

I hope I'm not getting in over my head. Will I be able to continue to use my Kenwood with all of its functions along with the Adcom? The Kenwood also drives a 2d pair of speakers in our living room. Oh, oh.

tonyb

SpiceRoute wrote: »

I hope I'm not getting in over my head. Will I be able to continue to use my Kenwood with all of its functions along with the Adcom? The Kenwood also drives a 2d pair of speakers in our living room. Oh, oh.

Yes, you'll be fine.
The amp will need one pair of coaxial interconnects. You connect each from the receivers front left and right output,and then to the amps left and right input.

falconcry72

Taking your advice. Going for the Adcom.

Awesome! Good move. That's a really nice amp for the money. Now you need a preamp to run it with. Either that or get the Benchmark and use it as a preamp.

Yes, you'll be fine.
The amp will need one pair of coaxial interconnects. You connect each from the receivers front left and right output,and then to the amps left and right input.

Unfortunately, that ain't gonna work. I was just looking over his manual, and the only preouts he has are for the surrounds and center, not the fronts. I was hoping he could get around that by using a "5-channel stereo" type of mode that sends the full front info to the surrounds, but his receiver doesn't have that either.

Time for a preamp. You'll be glad you did... or like I said just get the Benchmark as use that as a pre.

SpiceRoute, what are the other speakers you're running doing? Surround sound?




edit: actually, you can probably use the tape outs on your receiver to connect to the Adcom, but sometimes tape outs have a constant volume, so you wouldn't be able to use them and the Adcom in conjunction with the surround speakers.

tonyb

If thats the case,I hope he understands that before commiting to the Adcom. He may not want to lay out that coin for a pre and a amp.
From what I gather from his original post, he's looking for more power,more sparkle, from a receiver that has no way of adding it. If he plans on doing surround sound, a 2 channel pre won't cut it. He needs a newer receiver with preouts.
A dac he could possibly do, if his cdp has an optical out, but then he's still using the Kenwood as a pre.

I would forgo all the above advice, and get a pioneer elite receiver, it has better dacs, better power,and preouts for future amps if you ever feel the need. Just sayin' is all, not that any advice given is out of whack. A new receiver will solve all your issues at once instead of bandaiding one at a time.

tonyb

If thats the case,I hope he understands that before commiting to the Adcom. He may not want to lay out that coin for a pre and a amp.
From what I gather from his original post, he's looking for more power,more sparkle, from a receiver that has no way of adding it. A dac he could possibly do, if his cdp has an optical out, but then he's still using the Kenwood as a pre. Of coarse,buying a pre,an amp,dac, for a strictly 2 channel setup is the way to go, just be aware of the coinage involved.

I would forgo all the above advice, and get a pioneer elite receiver, it has better dacs, better power,and preouts for future amps if you ever feel the need. Just sayin' is all, not that any advice given is out of whack. A new receiver will solve all your issues at once instead of bandaiding one at a time. That is, if you ever want to do surround sound in the future.

falconcry72

tonyb wrote: »

If thats the case,I hope he understands that before commiting to the Adcom. He may not want to lay out that coin for a pre and a amp.
From what I gather from his original post, he's looking for more power,more sparkle, from a receiver that has no way of adding it. A dac he could possibly do, if his cdp has an optical out, but then he's still using the Kenwood as a pre. Of coarse,buying a pre,an amp,dac, for a strictly 2 channel setup is the way to go, just be aware of the coinage involved.

I would forgo all the above advice, and get a pioneer elite receiver, it has better dacs, better power,and preouts for future amps if you ever feel the need. Just sayin' is all, not that any advice given is out of whack. A new receiver will solve all your issues at once instead of bandaiding one at a time. That is, if you ever want to do surround sound in the future.

If he's doing surround, I agree.

There was no mention of surround before. We were talkin 2-channel music, so that's where my head was at with the Adcom suggestion, and I stick by it if 2 channel is what he's after.

His Rotel has a digital coax out, but it also has decent DAC's in it to begin with, so that's why I'd focus on the preamp and amp first, before a new DAC.

But again, if he's doing surround sound as well, and with those same Totems as fronts, then a Pio elite would probably be the way to go.

SpiceRoute

Wow. This is very heady stuff. Falconcry is correct, no surround sound here. Just plain old two channel, two speakers. The confusion, sorry about that, lay with my reference to the "B" pair of speakers in our living room.

I am in touch with the adcom seller, Angelfann, who is incredibly gracious. We are trying to sort out if the adcom can work with the Kenwood. Falconcry is right again, the Kenwood only has "Rear" pre-outs, no "Front" pre-outs. I may be out of luck. Looking forward to your thoughts.

tonyb

falconcry72 wrote: »

If he's doing surround, I agree.

There was no mention of surround before. We were talkin 2-channel music, so that's where my head was at with the Adcom suggestion, and I stick by it if 2 channel is what he's after.

His Rotel has a digital coax out, but it also has decent DAC's in it to begin with, so that's why I'd focus on the preamp and amp first, before a new DAC.

But again, if he's doing surround sound as well, and with those same Totems as fronts, then a Pio elite would probably be the way to go.

I'm wondering how he has it connected then. If he has it connected by the optical, then he's not using the better dacs in the cdp. He has to use analog connections, may make a difference. For purely 2 channel, he needs to toss out a budget because a dac,pre,and amp are going to run some coin and by the way he describes the wife, Not so sure thats gonna fly.

That amp won't work with that receiver my friend. If you commit to a pre amp, then by all means,pick up the adcom, it's a good price,hold on to it until you get a pre amp.

If we had a budget to work with, we could narrow down the field. Personally, I think an intergrated amp might be up your alley since room is also an issue. Whats that ? It's a pre amp and a amp in one unit, but better quality than a run of the mill receiver.

Also think about this. Do you, or the wife, listen to the radio at all from the Kenwood ? If so, there are no tuners in any of the suggestions so far, so consider that too.

Also, you may just be able to add a dac if your receiver has analog inputs. That would take care of any itunes you want to play. Either way, sooner or later,that Kenwood has to go if you want to up your game. Personally, I'll still stick to my Pioneer elite suggestion. Has better dacs,power,pre amp section, Itunes capabilities, tuner, and won't hog up the space seperates would. Going into seperates is something of a rabbit hole, you have to be prepared to spend alittle coin,not all that much, buying used will save you a ton. Just want you to know everything before dropping the coinage. I only seek to inform, not persuade you, because if it was me, I'd go the seperates route, but we all have wifes to consider also....and wallets.

falconcry72

SpiceRoute wrote: »

We are trying to sort out if the adcom can work with the Kenwood. Falconcry is right again, the Kenwood only has "Rear" pre-outs, no "Front" pre-outs. I may be out of luck. Looking forward to your thoughts.

Dude, I'm, like, 95% sure you can use the Tape Outs on that receiver; however, using the Benchmark as a pre may sound better. One problem with using the Benchmark as a pre is that the volume knob is manual, ie. no remote. If you don't mind gettin' up to change the volume, running the digital coax out of your Rotel CDP to the Benchmark and then directly to that 545 with the Benchmark in Variable Output Mode will sound flippin sweet. I'm running mine like that right now and it sounds great. Night and day above what you're doin now. Then down the road you could always add a dedicated preamp, but you'd really only need to if you A) wanted to gain the use of a remote, or, you wanted to try tubes.

falconcry72

tonyb wrote: »

I'm wondering how he has it connected then. If he has it connected by the optical, then he's not using the better dacs in the cdp. He has to use analog connections, may make a difference. For purely 2 channel, he needs to toss out a budget because a dac,pre,and amp are going to run some coin and by the way he describes the wife, Not so sure thats gonna fly.

That amp won't work with that receiver my friend. If you commit to a pre amp, then by all means,pick up the adcom, it's a good price,hold on to it until you get a pre amp.

If we had a budget to work with, we could narrow down the field. Personally, I think an intergrated amp might be up your alley since room is also an issue. Whats that ? It's a pre amp and a amp in one unit, but better quality than a run of the mill receiver.

Also think about this. Do you, or the wife, listen to the radio at all from the Kenwood ? If so, there are no tuners in any of the suggestions so far, so consider that too.

Also, you may just be able to add a dac if your receiver has analog inputs. That would take care of any itunes you want to play. Either way, sooner or later,that Kenwood has to go if you want to up your game. Personally, I'll still stick to my Pioneer elite suggestion. Has better dacs,power,pre amp section, Itunes capabilities, tuner, and won't hog up the space seperates would. Going into seperates is something of a rabbit hole, you have to be prepared to spend alittle coin,not all that much, buying used will save you a ton. Just want you to know everything before dropping the coinage. I only seek to inform, not persuade you, because if it was me, I'd go the seperates route, but we all have wifes to consider also....and wallets.

Tony I gotta disagree with you on this one.

That GFA-545 is $220 shipped. He can get a comparable Adcom pre for $200. Done. That's half of what he was planning on spending on a DAC alone. - or - go ahead and get the Benchmark, get the GFA-545 and call it a day cuz that setup would be sick.

Of course his receiver has analog inputs... analog only, so that's how the Rotel CPD is hooked up, but like I was saying, the DAC's in that Rotel are pretty decent already... just as good as the latest Elites I'm sure.

An Elite would be more of a hassle to setup up than a simple little 2-channel Adcom setup would be, and the Adcom setup will sound better. The GFA-545 is a solid performer, maybe the best of the GFA-5x5 line.

SpiceRoute

I really like Falconcry's "sick" idea of getting the GFA-545 and the Benchmark. I am also prepared to put the Kenwood in storage since I only use it for the cds and the radio. No home theater, no surround sound happening here or probably ever. But Tony was like a mind reader when he mentioned the radio, yes we do listen to that regularly and would like it to run through the Mites. Any quick fix on that? I have a little radio that has a headphone attachment which could be used as a line out, where would I plug that into? Until a few months ago, ignorance was bliss. You guys are quite wonderful and I appreciate all of your thoughts and advice.

steveinaz

That'll be a damn nice setup! You'd need at least the Benchmark DAC1/PRE for analog inputs. The "HDR" adds remote control.

falconcry72

SpiceRoute wrote: »

But Tony was like a mind reader when he mentioned the radio, yes we do listen to that regularly and would like it to run through the Mites. Any quick fix on that?

You can get a 2-channel pre with a tuner built in.

SpiceRoute

falconcry72 wrote: »

You can get a 2-channel pre with a tuner built in.

I need that.

SpiceRoute

Just took the plunge, sent payment for the GFA-545.

falconcry72

You need to be careful with your preamp decision. If you're going to be using a GFA-545, Benchmark DAC-1, and Rotel RCD-1072, it will take a fairly nice preamp to keep up and not the the weekest link. Don't let whether or not it has a tuner built in sway you one way or the other. You can get a decent external tuner for around a hundred bucks. What's your preamp budget? Or are you just going to wait a while and use the Benchmark as a pre?

falconcry72

SpiceRoute wrote: »

Just took the plunge, sent payment for the GFA-545.

nice, dude. You'll be glad you did.:cool:

SpiceRoute

I'm thinking, lets just see what the sound is like with the 545 and a decent used 2 channel preamp with tuner. Suggestions?

falconcry72

SpiceRoute wrote: »

I'm thinking, lets just see what the sound is like with the 545 and a decent used 2 channel preamp with tuner. Suggestions?

Budget?

BlueFox

You can always buy a seperate tuner. No need to find a pre-amp with a built-in tuner. That sort of defeats the purpose of having seperates.

I never listen to the radio any more for music, but I do for hockey games. So, I bought this tuner for the games. It seems to sound okay for music, but other than a brief test it never gets used.

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PAZTUNER