Amps of differing power output vs speaker volumes

JimAckley

mantis wrote: »

Not many of us have heard them yet. I'm waiting on them to make their way to the east coast.

Well tell Polk to snap-to!

falconcry72 wrote: »

Forget Audyssey.

Can I get an "amen"!

PrazVT wrote: »

No unfortunately I haven't had the opportunity to hear the 703s - though from what you told me on the phone, they absolutely kick ****. My issue with the 703s is that they need subs and I haven't had much success getting subs to integrate properly w/ bookshelves. Either Audyssey sets the sub vol too low for music or the subs sound really obnoxious.

Hence, my preference for full-range towers - the bass is there, but there's nothing for me to have to screw around with, and the bass sounds natural.

If there's a way to get that experience with bookshelves / subs, I'd be open to 703s in the HT.

But I guess even towers like LSi25s or Def Tech BP-8080STs are just bookshelves with subs attached right?

The only thing I adjust on my system is distance and level, and the speakers sound how they sound without any sort of processing to alter them. Placement also plays a huge role. There are probably 100 other factors to consider that I won't get into at this moment,

And yes, the LSi25s are a bookshelf with a sub in the bottom. It makes them a champ for mid-Fi systems IMO, since the task of LF reproduction is lifted from the receiver/amp, but you still get a full sound.

PrazVT

It's all about balance. RT series speakers are very nice for the price. They sound wonderful but Halo amps are as noted overkill and is why I think the SC-57 is going to be a perfect match for them. Spend that extra money on Blu ray's , CD's or digital downloads , maybe a better TV or a nice power conditioner / surge protector.

If you like your speakers , no need to upgrade them to something else.

Agreed. I'll give the receiver a chance on its own and see how it goes.

Oh there's a way. You just have to set it yourself. Forget Audyssey.

I see a 5.1 LsiM setup in your future...

Let's see, it's a thought. Of course with me, that's usually all it takes

The only thing I adjust on my system is distance and level, and the speakers sound how they sound without any sort of processing to alter them. Placement also plays a huge role. There are probably 100 other factors to consider that I won't get into at this moment,

And yes, the LSi25s are a bookshelf with a sub in the bottom. It makes them a champ for mid-Fi systems IMO, since the task of LF reproduction is lifted from the receiver/amp, but you still get a full sound.

Agreed - I usually turn off Audyssey + dynamic EQ for 2 ch music anyway. Well, I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. And most probably I'll be callin you when I do lol.

PrazVT

So looks like the receiver shipped out today as I just got the UPS tracking #. FYI, it was on amazon for $1495. No tax and free shipping.

falconcry72

PrazVT wrote: »

So looks like the receiver shipped out today as I just got the UPS tracking #. FYI, it was on amazon for $1495. No tax and free shipping.

Awesome. You went with the SC-57, correct?

That is a lot of machine for 1495 smackers. I think you're going to be happy.

PrazVT

Awesome. You went with the SC-57, correct?

That is a lot of machine for 1495 smackers. I think you're going to be happy.

Yup yup! It's the SC-57. I can't wait. I'm having it delivered to my parents house while I house sit until friday. So I'll take it back to my place and have 2 days with it on the weekend and then I'm back house sitting next week. So it'll be a little while before I can sit and really play with it.

mantis

Are you buying that from a Authorized dealer? i can't see why it's sold so low and they make any money on it at all. These Internet prices drive me insane. I hope your not getting boned in any way.

PrazVT

I hope I'm not getting boned too. Amazon.com is an authorized elite dealer, I'm an amazon prime member and I paid with my amazon card - so lets see what happens. The seller claims full factory warranty.

dave shepard

falconcry72 wrote: »

Oh I know there is a difference; I'm a firm believer in quality electronics, but I'm also a believer that their quality should be commensurate with the speaker's quality and that the speakers make a bigger difference in overall sound. I wouldn't run a 600w/channel Bryston 28BSST^2 on a pair of Monitor 70's... not because the Monitors couldn't handle it, and not because that Bryston wouldn't make the Monitors sing better than they ever have, it's that I know I'd gain a much larger improvement in sound by buying a less expensive amp and using the left over money to buy a pair of LSiM's to replace the Monitors. Hands down.

It has nothing to do with the quantity of watts; it has to do with the quality of watts.

The rti's could handle an amp that was rated at 3000 watts per channel, but that makes no difference.

Anyway, just my two cents.

and BTW I'm not saying to not use an external amp; I'm saying that buying a less expensive external amp, and using the extra money to upgrade your speakers, will make a ginormously bigger difference in sound than just splurging on the amp will.

Thank you Falconcry,

OMG!!!! Bingo, ding, ding ding. That is exactly what I have been saying in previous threads. You can get to the point of diminishing returns mostly due to the speakers will only do so much and when you reach that point nothing you do will change that. The problem and question is just when is the speaker putting out all it can do? and how would someone know without spending a small and sometimes large fortune. You can run most of Polks line-up with a quality 125-150wpc amp and they will be sounding their best so long as what you have is good quality power. You don't need a crazy high power amp to run them to their potential.
This is in noway a poke at Polk speakers they fill a nitch and they do it well but there are limitations to everything and running a pair of RTI's with a Bryston, M.L., Mac etc is totaly not needed but if you do have that amp already your good but the speakers would be just as well off with a 150wpc NAD, Rotel, Adcom, Sunfire etc and sound as good because at that level of power the speakers will be giving all they cam give.
Good clean power is where it is at more so then higher power.

Dave

PrazVT

The problem and question is just when is the speaker putting out all it can do?

That's a valid point. I went from a receiver to a 250wpc amp, so in that sense I didn't really try anything in between. But I was looking for something high current - not really looking at wattage. I have a NAD 375 that I'm sure would power the A7s fine b/c I know its high current.

What I'm going to find out by this weekend is whether this dialing back of power is going to lessen my experience with my RTi A7s. I'm not talking about HT either, as we've established having different powered amps of different series was a mistake. If this is the middle ground I skipped over and the speakers are still kicking **** then it's all good and I've saved myself some $$ by relinquishing the amps.

Anyway - all a learning experience for me - so thank you guys again. Plus maybe this is phase 1 in a reboot for the living room system. Since I do enjoy 2 ch music in the living room and the A7s tweeters do irritate me, I may try something else.

Beta

This is an interesting thread for me as I recently built a HT system in my living room.

I had the Polk LCi in wall/ceiling series speakers installed (LC265i fronts, LCi-C center and LC80fx surrounds). Prior to installing them, I called Polk customer service and they recommended powering the LCi with an AVR such as a "Denon or Onkyo". One of at least 130 watts per channel. Therefore, I picked up a highly discounted but brand new Denon 4310CI AVR. This unit powers the LCi fairly well. However, I felt it slightly struggled to power the speakers 4 ohm load.

I switched to tube gear in my 2 channel rig. Therefore, I had an A21 and an A23 sitting in boxes and not being used. I found a great deal on a third A23 and bought it.

I am now using the 4310CI as a pre/pro. The A21 powers the LC265i, an A23 powers the LCi-C and the second A23 powers the LC80fx surrounds. I have the amps connected to the AVR's preouts with AQ king cobra ICs that I picked up on the cheap via Audiogon.

I'll be the first to admit that I am no HT expert, but these three amps have taken my LCi to a whole new level. I ran the AVR's Audyssey and all I can say is wow!

The A21 is 250x2 watts at 60 amperes peak per channel and the A23 are 125x2 watts at 45 amperes peak per channel. These three amps sound spectacular together powering my LCi. Maybe ignorance is bliss in my case, but I couldn't be happier with how these three amps perform together in a HT set up.

Lastly, I have had no problems whatsoever with the 4310CI (other than it takes a rocket scientist to try to decipher the owners manual).

PrazVT

Well I think you're probably one up on me in that you're using amps from the same series. My NC2250 is 45A peak as well. I think the only ones that are less are the 2125 (35 amps) and the A52 (30 amps).

Joe08867

I am going to disagree with a few guys here.

While I believe the SC-57 is going to sound better overall I would stilll keep the RTia7's on the A21 amp. There is no way on Gods green earth that the SC will sound better than the A21. Plus this would free up dynamic ability for the surrounds and center.

I understand synergy but we tell people all the time to get an amp or add an amp. The SC-57 is an amazing piece of kit but my money is on the A21 for 2ch listening.

As far as Volume difference is concerned the SC should be able to sort that out for you.

PrazVT

Let me see how the SC sounds ... I have a few ideas in my head ...but haven't decided what to do amp-wise yet.

pietro944

Put your money into speakers first and a nice tube DAC,second.The rest you can make price concessions on.Amp wattage is way overrated...high current and tubes are not......just mho.

PrazVT

All my amp purchases have been based on current output (hence Parasound and NAD since they've actually listed it). From what I've read, one good indicator of whether an amp is sufficiently high current, absent any actual listing of that spec, is if the 4 ohm power rating is close to twice the 8 ohm power rating (whatever the 8 ohm rating is).

Upgrading the speakers is something I've been thinking about. But I'd need to sell all the amps, the Denon avr, and the RTi A7s/CSi A6/A1s first. Then perhaps start fresh. Mythos STS (if there are any left) or LSiMs...

PrazVT

Well it's here! Don't mind Meko - he thinks every package is his. Also he just got all his fur shaved off so he's looking kinda pathetic anyway :biggrin:

Now I get to stare at the box until Friday evening when I head back to my place.

mantis

Thats fantastic.
Awaiting your thoughts on it.

PrazVT

Will be back at my place by evening, so I'll post some initial thoughts on it tonight.

BTW, I found a discussion from 8 years ago here where you yourself were asking about using diff amplifiers in the same setup. Interesting discussion.

dave shepard

Looking forward to your thoughts also. Let us know also if you feel you can get it to perform loud/clean enough for ya, I think it will. I also have some thoughts on the SQ you might discover but look forward to reading what you find.

Dave

PrazVT

Sure - will provide an update once it's set up. Right now, boxing up the amps and cleaning up the av rack.

gp4jesus

PrazVT wrote: »

...I found a discussion from 8 years ago here where you yourself were asking about using diff amplifiers in the same setup. Interesting discussion.

Very interesting; read every post.

sorry for my long windedness.

from http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123080age=2

Sorry for duplicate posts:

....Rotel RB-1552... ...class AB 120W, is it good quality watts or marketing watts? ...watching Rotel as a brand. ...coming home with a RB-1582 anyway if it is any good...

...Good quality watts according to reviewers, Jay.

One place to do some Rotel research:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/forumdisplay.php4?f=20

I recall reading there, the 15XX series does NOT provide the "near" Levinson/Krell/Threshold SQ* of the heftier 98X/99X/10XX series amps. But don't take my word.
* w/out the L/K/T $ according to expert reviews

A side note to this: if I knew then what I know now I'd have gone all Rotel instead of Hafler XL280s. Rotels are on the agenda following the rest the speaker mods & TV upgrade

Also until recently I used a only a Belles for my LR; Hafs for center & LR/RR. When I changed to a Haf for the 'A7 tops*, I noticed improved transparency or greater imersion in the sound stage. More evidence for the "same brand amp for all channels" argument.
* leaving the Belles connected to the bottoms

to PrazVT: you could save one of those other amps to drive your 'A7 bottoms thus lightnening your AVR's load. The SC-57 review I read listed 8 & 6, but no 4ohm power rating.

to everyone else*: my Belles w/its measly, but high current, 80 wpc/8ohms will lift my 'A7s off the ground! More evidence for the "quality power" argument.
* PrazVT: you've read this before

I plan to recommend the Pio SC series to a friend above some of the other brands he & I discussed

My $.02. cheers tony

PrazVT

to PrazVT: you could save one of those other amps to drive your 'A7 bottoms thus lightnening your AVR's load. The SC-57 review I read listed 8 & 6, but no 4ohm power rating.

Well my speakers are 8 ohms, so that's not an issue. I think my concern (and the original intent of this thread) was that having an amp power 2 speakers would compromise 5.1 ch performance due to the differing power outputs. I think perhaps a 5 ch amp would be a decent compromise, though I haven't made up my mind yet...

PrazVT

Okay - some initial thoughts.

First off, no amps are connected. Though I am tempted to put the A21 back in to hear the SC-57 as a pre. But more on that aspect a little later..

Functional Observations:
- Aside from the setup GUI, there's no OSD to speaker of for audio / video adjustments or even volume. That's a little bit of an adjustment after coming from the Denon, which probably has the best GUI / menu system I've seen.
- But the receiver display is legible from 10ft away and the menus are straight fwd so not a huge deal.
- Home Media is passable; it sees my server and can play all the FLACs; won't play any multi-channel wavs or AC3 audio files unlike the Denon, but I think I can tweak the server to send out PCM.
- The receiver itself is pretty classy. If you open the front panel, the area behind it is flush with the rest of the receiver front face - very nice.
- MCACC windows software is interesting, though after detecting the receiver and asking me to hit next to start the process, it would repeat that screen. I ended up just doing it from the GUI.

Audio:
- Pristine, detailed, ...so much ambiance it's just frickin awesome. I'm listening to Pink Floyd's "Us and Them" and it's wonderfully clear various random instruments are coming out at me from varying directions / depths.
- With MCACC turned off (ie. Pure Direct), the A7s are sounding really bright - like Yamaha bright - it's hurting my ears. With MCACC turned on, and the EQ working, it's completely fixed and tweeter brightness is almost completely neutralized, but the low end suffers.
- The D^3 Amps: It's a valiant effort. For sure, the SC-57 drives the A7s better than my Denon or my Yamaha did. Does it drive the A7s to their max potential? No, I get thunderous low end and warmth up high when the A7s are driven by the A21. It's a difference between hearing bass and feeling it - and in that sense, the receiver isn't quite a replacement for an amp to me, with these speakers.
- With efficient Def Techs with built-in powered subs, I can see this receiver doing the job on its own effectively.
- But I think its musical quality paired with a nice amp will be a great combination for my current set.
- One thing I'm noticing also, is I'm having to turn the volume up into the -16 -> -10 range at times. More of an issue if MCACC is on.

So these are my "first hour or two" raw impressions - apologies if it's incoherent. I'm exhausted - been a long long day.

PrazVT

Obligatory photo... (yah need to do some cable mgmt)

mantis

Cool man I got questions
1) DO you have a sub in this system?
2) Are you a more of a music guy then theater guy?

If you are a music guy and you feel the amp sounds better in the chain over the receiver powering the speakers then add the 2 ch amp in and re MCACC. If you don't have a sub , then get one , it will increase your overall experience 10 fold. If music is your game I suggest a SPL or DD series Velodyne with that setup , maybe 2 SPL or DD subs would work better for more even coverage in your room.

My man if I lived closer , I would come over and teach you wire management, that looks mad. Most people don't have any clue on how to properly wire manage including some professionals do don't feel bad in any way.
I think you have a wonderful system and I would love to hear it go.

I'm also thinking MCACC got interfered if your not getting good bottom end out of the A7's. I drove the A7's in factory form non modded crossovers with a SC-07 and the bass was wonderful. I also started liking the A7's after a few demo's and systems I did with them.
I also know for a fact they completely benefit from a killer sub like the DD10 which I did a few times with them and those 2 go together like PPJ.
I'd like to see a front end pic from where you sit , I'd like to check your front position and have some measurements. Distance from back and side walls, distance apart and from the seating location. A few tweaks of along way.

PrazVT

Hey mantis

1 - Yeah, I have a PSW-505 that I pretty much only use for movies / TV. It's positioned at an angle to the left of the left A7.

2 - I'm trying to get the best of both worlds - I spend almost 50/50 time watching movies and listening to music. Dual subs would be ideal - it's just not really an option while I'm living in my current apartment (space constraints, neighbors) - that'll be next year when I move out probably.

Yeah adding one of the 2 ch amps is probably the easiest thing to do. But you have a point that it'll result in unevenness. So I keep trying to decide whether to just ditch the speakers and get something more efficient that'll run off of the SC (ie like your Mythos) or ditch all the amps and get a 5ch amp and avoid any potential unevenness w/ 5.1 content. That first post of yours about using diff amps has just been driving me crazy lol.

I ran MCACC twice - the first time I mistakenly chose bi-amp. 2nd time I went w/ the default 9.1 and let it detect the speakers. I put the mic on the tripod on the sofa (nono?) smack dab in the center - 70 inches from the wall (same dist as center of the center speaker, center spot between the towers). But my living room is oddly shaped - I'll take some pics tomorrow - I appreciate you taking the time to help! Maybe you can do some cable management videos?

mantis

I have never tried the bi amp feature and it's something you can give a whirl and see if you get any better performance out of the fronts when playing music. I would just set them in small and run the sub to play the bottom and. But since the 57 has this ability why not give it a go. You must remove the jumpers on the binding posts before you bi amp.
If you decide to go with new speakers and check out the Mythos series , they are a pretty big step up from the RTia series. They do everything better. You would not need a external amp as the Sub's in the Mythos ST or even the small STS are damn good especially in your apartment. This is only an option if you can't get a satisfying experience out of the RT's which I know you can as I have set up many system exactly like your except the older SC model receivers in the SC07 and SC27.

When using the MCAC MIC , it should be placed at ear height in the seat you sit in. I use couch pillows and get the mic exactly where my head is goes when I watch or listen. This gives the best results I have found. You can use a tripod stand as long as you get the mic height correct.

I'm still not seeing a need to add any amps to this setup especially in an apartment where you can't really flex the muscles of a high current amp. I'm a little puzzled that the SC-57 is not providing enough bass out of the rtia7's. I have heard them on the older models and man did they sing. Tight accurate bass and they really performed well. the Halo amp is absolutely a better quality amp then the class D amps inside the pioneer but at lower volumes I don't see any improvement as the pioneer amps have plenty of current and dynamic range to fill a damn large room. I would love to do a A-B side by side compare at lower volumes and hear what you hear. But again with small front settings and letting the sub do the heavy lifting will also improve overall performance. Not many front main speakers in the world have the ability to complete a 20hz to 20khz listening experience properly. A subwoofer when setup positioned and calibrated correctly will greatly improve 2 channel music.

Wire management LOL a video would be cool. It's something I'm very good at and have been trained in the art. I can provide some pic's of some of my wire management racks to give you ideas on how to do it. It's a skill few have. Wire management makes swapping out gear and troubleshooting a breeze. When wires are everywhere is when you can get frustrated . Not to mention it looks really clean and nice.

PrazVT

I think the bottom line is that the RTi A7s are capable of more when sufficiently powered. In that sense, the overkill of the A21 hit that spot - probably via current capacity if not the wattage. Honestly, I've been happy with them on that front because the experience has been great. So I know the potential is there with the right hardware - but I also understand that the frankenstein collection of amps I have isn't the best choice.

Your suggestion on subs is a good one - and if I had 2 better subs and the space in my place to put them somewhere, I would consider it. I guess I'm in the camp where if I can get away without a sub for 2 ch I will. I have a Micropro2k for my 2ch system in the bedroom, because the LSi9s really needed them below ~60hz. It sounds nice, though I'm still tweaking it since there's no bass mgmt w/ the NAD 375 integrated. I set up dual subs in my Dad's HT and it does sound better - so no arguments there. Just a philosophical / logistical issue for me right now - so forgive me on that front.

MCACC - I think I did it right based on your instructions - same rationale when I do the sound setups. I will say I had to remove my 8TC speaker cables due to the receiver not taking spades - had to revert to my old bluejeans cables for the A7s - that may also be affecting the tone a little.

Wire management - yes, please do send me some photos. I did see one of the pics from your rack where you had the velcro(?) ties grouping the cables together - very pretty. The downside to my rack is you can see the rear (again, purchased without a lot of forethought about these things when I got my own place). I may hit up frys today and pick up some cable mgmt gear today. If there's a way of doing it and not having to undo it everytime gear changes, that's even better - that's usually what messes everything up.

Next Steps / Action Items: [Cisco corporate jargon for conference calls lol]

- I think the option that stresses me out the least, is to simply get a good multichannel amp. That kills 2 birds (equal power, A7s) with one stone and it's the least stressful option to me.
- So I will be selling the Parasound A21, NC2250, NC2125

Sorry - do you have customers who are crazy like me?

SRTer

PrazVT wrote: »

Okay - some initial thoughts.

First off, no amps are connected. Though I am tempted to put the A21 back in to hear the SC-57 as a pre. But more on that aspect a little later..

Functional Observations:
- Aside from the setup GUI, there's no OSD to speaker of for audio / video adjustments or even volume. That's a little bit of an adjustment after coming from the Denon, which probably has the best GUI / menu system I've seen.
- But the receiver display is legible from 10ft away and the menus are straight fwd so not a huge deal.
- Home Media is passable; it sees my server and can play all the FLACs; won't play any multi-channel wavs or AC3 audio files unlike the Denon, but I think I can tweak the server to send out PCM.
- The receiver itself is pretty classy. If you open the front panel, the area behind it is flush with the rest of the receiver front face - very nice.
- MCACC windows software is interesting, though after detecting the receiver and asking me to hit next to start the process, it would repeat that screen. I ended up just doing it from the GUI.

Audio:
- Pristine, detailed, ...so much ambiance it's just frickin awesome. I'm listening to Pink Floyd's "Us and Them" and it's wonderfully clear various random instruments are coming out at me from varying directions / depths.
- With MCACC turned off (ie. Pure Direct), the A7s are sounding really bright - like Yamaha bright - it's hurting my ears. With MCACC turned on, and the EQ working, it's completely fixed and tweeter brightness is almost completely neutralized, but the low end suffers.
- The D^3 Amps: It's a valiant effort. For sure, the SC-57 drives the A7s better than my Denon or my Yamaha did. Does it drive the A7s to their max potential? No, I get thunderous low end and warmth up high when the A7s are driven by the A21. It's a difference between hearing bass and feeling it - and in that sense, the receiver isn't quite a replacement for an amp to me, with these speakers.
- With efficient Def Techs with built-in powered subs, I can see this receiver doing the job on its own effectively.
- But I think its musical quality paired with a nice amp will be a great combination for my current set.
- One thing I'm noticing also, is I'm having to turn the volume up into the -16 -> -10 range at times. More of an issue if MCACC is on.

So these are my "first hour or two" raw impressions - apologies if it's incoherent. I'm exhausted - been a long long day.

Responding to the first statement in Red.

With all due respect to Mantis and others of the same school of thought:redface:, I am of the camp with Joe08867 which stated before in earlier post.

"I am going to disagree with a few guys here.
While I believe the SC-57 is going to sound better overall I would stilll keep the RTia7's on the A21 amp. There is no way on Gods green earth that the SC will sound better than the A21. Plus this would free up dynamic ability for the surrounds and center.
I understand synergy but we tell people all the time to get an amp or add an amp. The SC-57 is an amazing piece of kit but my money is on the A21 for 2ch listening.
As far as Volume difference is concerned the SC should be able to sort that out for you."

I personally have seen an increase in SPL created in my front RTi A9's with the addition of the Adcom GFA-555 Mkii. Secondly, the SC-35 powering the rest of the speakers (RTi A7's and CSi A6) increased their SPL and clarity minus the RTi A9's. This allowed the AVR to better control the remaining speakers to the point that I'm satisfied as well as all visitors and neighbors.
The addition of the 2 channel increase the should change some of the sound characteristics in the front stage but In my case the MCACC auto calibration in concert with my custom EQ brought home the goods.

Responding to the first statement in Blue.

If you would try the DIRECT setting instead of the PURE DIRECT, you should find the RTi A7's will sound better because I?m sure the SC-57 MCACC program attenuated some of the RTi A7's treble frequencies during calibration. While the DIRECT setting is similar to the PURE DIRECT in that it remove many electronic process, it will however let you keep your EQ which seems important when dealing with a speaker like the RTi A's which has a proper bright sounding tweeter for HT. This is a way to get the RTi A7's ready for music duty in 2 channel mode.

Responding to the first statement in green.

The MCACC more and likely lower the gain on your speakers, therefore you have to turn the volume up to -10db. I have experienced the same situation on the SC-35 with RTi A towers at four corners. While the Polk?s are not as efficient like the Klipsch speakers, their 90dB-89dB sensitivities seem to cause the MCACC to lower the gain.

I personally would like to see you add the external amp and then run you MCACC. Then see what you think because YOU must be pleased with your purchases first, all theories and technical experience of others aside.
If you don't mind, please take a picture of the MCACC setting (i.e. Gain, EQ, ect) and post them here so I can look at them. If you want, you can try a custom EQ. I find that is what really tied it all together for me because the MCACC is often a bass killer in an untreated room like mine.

IMO, I could be wrong, but they say "ignorance is bliss", so...:biggrin::redface:

PrazVT

SRTer - thanks for your observations. Outside of peoples' personal experiences, I've only found one guide regarding mixing amps - I think on DIYAudio's FAQs. And even that just said that it's recommended to run all channels with an equal power amplifier. Since the debate seems to not really have a definitive answer - I think the most practical approach is to just remove the potential complexities from the equation and migrate over to a good multich amp.

The A21 and Denon receiver are sold, so my amp fund is at a little over $2200 and I still have to sell the other 2 amps. So I'll have some choices, and perhaps enough left over to pick up a Cambridge 751BD or Oppo 95.

Thanks for the tip regarding Direct / Pure Direct. 2 ch music sounds great on Direct!

I'll take some pics of the the MCACC setup and post back in a bit.

@mantis, I'll take some pics of the living room as well, so you can see what I'm dealin' with.

Thanks guys. Gettin there slowly