Preamp ~$1-2k

dkg999

I currently own the ARC SP16L pre-amp. It is driving Parasound 1500 solid-state amps in a vertical bi-amp configuration and the speakers are Magnepan 1.6's. I'm using the stock tubes in the SP16. Cables are all Signal Cable. It replaced a Rogue 66 Magnum pre-amp. The Rogue 66 (12au7 tubes) was a more lush, liquid, tubier sounding pre-amp, almost a little too much so with the rest of the system. The SP16L provided more definition, a bigger soundstage with more depth, and a nice improvement in the bass, all while still maintaining the tube SQ I like. In my previous gear arrangement it was uber-work to change out tubes, as I setup my system in my new place I hope to have an easier time swapping tubes. I have some very nice 12ax7's to try in the SP16L.

dkg999

If you want a very liquid tubey SQ then I would encourage you to look at the Rogue 66 and 99 pre-amps. I currently use Sylvania triple-mica blackplate 12au7 tubes in my Rogue 66 and they are da'bomb! My Rogue 66 is paired with a Marsh A200S amp and Paradigm Studio Reference 20v3 monitors and the synergy is really nice.

heiney9

dkg999 wrote: »

I currently own the ARC SP16L pre-amp. It is driving Parasound 1500 solid-state amps in a vertical bi-amp configuration and the speakers are Magnepan 1.6's. I'm using the stock tubes in the SP16. Cables are all Signal Cable. It replaced a Rogue 66 Magnum pre-amp. The Rogue 66 (12au7 tubes) was a more lush, liquid, tubier sounding pre-amp, almost a little too much so with the rest of the system. The SP16L provided more definition, a bigger soundstage with more depth, and a nice improvement in the bass, all while still maintaining the tube SQ I like. In my previous gear arrangement it was uber-work to change out tubes, as I setup my system in my new place I hope to have an easier time swapping tubes. I have some very nice 12ax7's to try in the SP16L.

There ya go, right from the horses mouth and I think you can take his opinion and advice, as Doug knows what he's talking about.

H9

falconcry72

dkg999 wrote: »

I currently own the ARC SP16L pre-amp. It is driving Parasound 1500 solid-state amps in a vertical bi-amp configuration and the speakers are Magnepan 1.6's. I'm using the stock tubes in the SP16. Cables are all Signal Cable. It replaced a Rogue 66 Magnum pre-amp. The Rogue 66 (12au7 tubes) was a more lush, liquid, tubier sounding pre-amp, almost a little too much so with the rest of the system. The SP16L provided more definition, a bigger soundstage with more depth, and a nice improvement in the bass, all while still maintaining the tube SQ I like. In my previous gear arrangement it was uber-work to change out tubes, as I setup my system in my new place I hope to have an easier time swapping tubes. I have some very nice 12ax7's to try in the SP16L.

Sounds like we have similar systems... Maggies, Parasound HCA amps, Signal Cables...

Another consideration is that the SP-16 is a little newer than the LS-15.

The SP-16 would be between 4 and 10 years old, whereas the LS-15 would be between 12 and 15 years old.

falconcry72

dkg999 wrote: »

If you want a very liquid tubey SQ then I would encourage you to look at the Rogue 66 and 99 pre-amps. I currently use Sylvania triple-mica blackplate 12au7 tubes in my Rogue 66 and they are da'bomb! My Rogue 66 is paired with a Marsh A200S amp and Paradigm Studio Reference 20v3 monitors and the synergy is really nice.

I'm surprised that you didn't like the more liquid, tubey nature of the Rogue with the Maggies. To my ear they need some of that warmth.

So with your Parasound/Maggie setup, what else did the SP-16L do for you that edged out the Rogue?

dkg999

The Rogue pre was just a little less dynamic than the SP16L, along with what I noted previously.

falconcry72

heiney9 wrote: »

Be sure and do your research on 6922 tubes, it seems many out there don't think all that highly of them as an audio tube. Don't take my word for it however because that is one tube I have not done much research on.

I think in the end you'll find a larger variety of 12AX7 and variant tubes, so you have more flexibility when tube rolling, more options and choices.

just my .02c

H9

Thanks for the input, H9; I know from reading other threads that you've done some homework in the researching and testing of tubes.

falconcry72

dkg999 wrote: »

The Rogue pre was just a little less dynamic than the SP16L, along with what I noted previously.

I appreciate your input, dkg999, especially since we run similar gear.

I think I'm going to just see what kind of deal I can find and let that guide me for now.

I know that these two pieces sound different, but it's going to have to be up to my ears as to which I prefer.

The saga continues...

SCompRacer

heiney9 wrote: »

Be sure and do your research on 6922 tubes, it seems many out there don't think all that highly of them as an audio tube.

Plenty of nice 6922/7308 tubes and gear out there. Two pieces instantly pop into mind, a BAT VK3i pre amp and a tube output CD player I had. Typical audio ****.

falconcry72

SCompRacer wrote: »

Plenty of nice 6922/7308 tubes and gear out there. Two pieces instantly pop into mind, a BAT VK3i pre amp and a tube output CD player I had. Typical audio ****.

Cool, man. I figure I can find good vintages of either tube, so it's more about their respective differences in tone and/or feature sets. Another difference is that the LS-15 has balanced inputs and outputs, whereas the SP-16 is SE only. The SP-16, though, has a processor bypass.

Hey, I was just looking at your showcase... so what are the electrostats that you use on the South wall setup?

By the way, I like how your VTI rack looks. I'm going to pull the trigger on one soon; they just look so damn sturdy!:eek::cool:

SCompRacer

My comment wasn't directed against Brock. He is my RAS brother and I love him.:biggrin:

My speakers are InnerSound Eros MK III's. There is an 8 foot long folded transmission line bass module at the bottom fitted with a custom high excursion 10 inch SEAS woofer. The MK III Ultrastat ESL panels are one of the most problem free, lifetime ESL panels made. A high value dielectric covers the metal grid of the front and rear stators. (If powder coating isn't perfectly applied to metal stators, you can get arcing). The Ultrastat coating is embedded into the diaphragm material so it cannot come off or corrode. It does not absorb water, so humidity has no effect on them. If my cat jumps on the back of the speaker and rubs on it, I don't have to worry about that speaker putting out less sound.

They are horizontally bi-amped. A 600 WPC @ 4Ohm active crossover bass amp powers the woofers. A 600WPC @ 4Ohms Sanders ESL amp powers the panels. They are similar sounding to maggies with extremely well integrated subs. Small sweet spot, but I love it there.

The VTI rack is pretty good bang for the buck. You can get all kinds of shelf and trim cap color combinations. One word of warning if you wish to fill them with lead shot. (I had a few bags of shot left over from the skeet reloading days). There were small open slots at the bottom of the cross braces where they meet the support posts. They put a rubber plug in the post to seal them, but they can come out and small shot will dribble out of those openings. A smear of epoxy or clear silicone to fill the holes solves that problem.

If you fill them with shot, run a bead of glue around the base caps where they meet the posts. Over time, probably from weight and vibration, an end cap can loosen up. You go to move the rack one day, pick it up and maybe one of the caps falls off and you have shot rolling everywhere. Been there and done that, once. Maybe the best thing to do is use expandable foam to deaden the rack and forgot about adding weight.

Doug's system sounds great!

EDIT:

The other thing you could do is check at Lowes. At one time, they had this build your own shelving that I made this amp stand out of. They had it in single and double wide shelves, different length posts, two colors, etc..

drumminman

Odyssey Candela linestage. Made in America (Indiana), 20 year warranty, very clean organic sound. Can be ordered with remote, and, as I've recently discovered, is very responsive to tube rolling.

RCA cleartops - :cool:

heiney9

SCompRacer wrote: »

My comment wasn't directed against Brock. He is my RAS brother and I love him.:biggrin:

Awww man, I was ready to trash this thread rallying against your post :biggrin:

SCompRacer wrote: »

My speakers are InnerSound Eros MK III's. There is an 8 foot long folded transmission line bass module at the bottom fitted with a custom high excursion 10 inch SEAS woofer. The MK III Ultrastat ESL panels are one of the most problem free, lifetime ESL panels made. A high value dielectric covers the metal grid of the front and rear stators. (If powder coating isn't perfectly applied to metal stators, you can get arcing). The Ultrastat coating is embedded into the diaphragm material so it cannot come off or corrode. It does not absorb water, so humidity has no effect on them. If my cat jumps on the back of the speaker and rubs on it, I don't have to worry about that speaker putting out less sound.

They are horizontally bi-amped. A 600 WPC @ 4Ohm active crossover bass amp powers the woofers. A 600WPC @ 4Ohms Sanders ESL amp powers the panels. They are similar sounding to maggies with extremely well integrated subs. Small sweet spot, but I love it there.

The VTI rack is pretty good bang for the buck. You can get all kinds of shelf and trim cap color combinations. One word of warning if you wish to fill them with lead shot. (I had a few bags of shot left over from the skeet reloading days). There were small open slots at the bottom of the cross braces where they meet the support posts. They put a rubber plug in the post to seal them, but they can come out and small shot will dribble out of those openings. A smear of epoxy or clear silicone to fill the holes solves that problem.

If you fill them with shot, run a bead of glue around the base caps where they meet the posts. Over time, probably from weight and vibration, an end cap can loosen up. You go to move the rack one day, pick it up and maybe one of the caps falls off and you have shot rolling everywhere. Been there and done that, once. Maybe the best thing to do is use expandable foam to deaden the rack and forgot about adding weight.

Doug's system sounds great!

EDIT:

The other thing you could do is check at Lowes. At one time, they had this build your own shelving that I made this amp stand out of. They had it in single and double wide shelves, different length posts, two colors, etc..

Both Doug and Rich's system are superb sounding systems. It's very hard to make generalizations about tube types just based on their face, because there are many different ways to implement a tube in a circuit. It's all about synergy too.

That all being said a BAT VK3i will lean towards more solid state sound where the ARC or Rogue will lean more towards that "tubey" sound. All 3 are excellent pieces of gear.

As always YMMV

H9

falconcry72

Pulled the trigger on an LS-15.:biggrin:

I was leaning towards the SP-16 with phono stage so that I could get into vinyl down the road, but I found a deal on an LS-15 that I couldn't pass up.:cool:

Hopefully it gets here before next weekend so I can play with all weekend.

falconcry72

I need help with tubes, big time.:redface:

I posted in the Wanted section about needing knowledge and/or actual tubes in the 6922/6DJ8/PCC88/E88CC family, but I figured I'd make some noise over here as well.

Thanks,

Ben

SCompRacer

Just generally, 6DJ8 are the low rent district, 6922's and 7308 move up the food chain, CCa's are high rent.:biggrin:

Tubeworld has tube ranking poll results, and sometimes lists what has worked well in a specific piece of gear.
https://www.tubeworld.com/index_high.htm

Or you just gotta find someone with listening tatses like yours that you can communicate with to dial it all in. My musical tastes have been referred to as esoteric, which is a nice way of saying "I guess he likes it" so I can't help you at all.:biggrin: Just apply patience....it will all fall into place. It took 58 years for me.

SCompRacer

Oh, congrats on the LS-15. No big deal on the built in phono stage, sometimes you can do better with a separate piece. A stand alone phono stage means you can change pre amps without worrying if the next one is/can be equipped with a phono stage, how good is it, etc.

Selecting phono pre amps opens up another 'will this fill my needs' thing. Just for MM cartridges, for MM/MC, adjustable loading, etc.

falconcry72

SCompRacer wrote: »

Just generally, 6DJ8 are the low rent district, 6922's and 7308 move up the food chain, CCa's are high rent.:biggrin:

Tubeworld has tube ranking poll results, and sometimes lists what has worked well in a specific piece of gear.
https://www.tubeworld.com/index_high.htm

Very good info there. Thanks for link.

No big deal on the built in phono stage, sometimes you can do better with a separate piece. A stand alone phono stage means you can change pre amps without worrying if the next one is/can be equipped with a phono stage, how good is it, etc.

Good call. I can always add a phono stage later.


So I'm thinking, for now, I need a quad of good sounding, reliable, easy to find tubes to get me started, that will sound better than the stock tubes but not break the bank.

I'm thinking the US made Amperex PQ's with Orange printing from the late 60's will fit this bill nicely. They won't break the bank, but they'll be an improvement over the stock tubes for sure, and I should be satisfied with them for long enough to give me time to research and become familiar with the more expensive, harder to find CCa's and the like.

What do you think?

US-made, late 60's Amperex PQ's?

falconcry72

falconcry72 wrote: »

What do you think?

US-made, late 60's Amperex PQ's?

Change of plans:

I'm going to hold out for the earlier 60's white label Amperex PQ's... or whatever I can find the better deal on.

headrott

The white label Amperex PQ's are good, but if you are talking Amperex 6DJ8 tubes (and variants), you should absolutely try the 1958 and 1959 Amperex D-getter 6DJ8 tubes. They are absolutely phenominal. Soundstage as wide and as deep as the Grand Canyon. They have excellent tones and will make a pre-amp sing. I am using them in my BAT VK-3i and are great. As Brock said, the VK-3i has a little more of a solid state sound compared to ther tube pre-amps I've used, but not solid state "sterile" sounding at all. Tube rolling in the VK-3i does absolutely make a difference.

As for the CCa tubes. I have tried many many 6922 and variants and the CCa blows them all away by a lot! I am using them now in my DAC. This is one of the best 9-pin (pre-amp, CD player, gain stage for tube power amps) tubes you can get hands down. It has all of what I said about the Amperex 6DJ8 tubes and more. Plus they have way more of what I said about the Amperex tubes. I guarantee you will like some CCa's. What you won't like is the price you have to pay for them. But, I guarantee you won't be disappointed with the money spent.

Greg

falconcry72

headrott wrote: »

The white label Amperex PQ's are good, but if you are talking Amperex 6DJ8 tubes (and variants), you should absolutely try the 1958 and 1959 Amperex D-getter 6DJ8 tubes. They are absolutely phenominal. Soundstage as wide and as deep as the Grand Canyon. They have excellent tones and will make a pre-amp sing.

I'll keep an eye out for those early Amperex 6dj8's.

Here's what I've got coming in the 6dj8 dept:

- Quad of Amperex Bugle Boys: '64, white label, Holland: Herleen plant, with big "O" getter

- Quad of Amperex Orange Globes: '68, orange label, Holland: Herleen plant, with the big "O" getter

I'm working on sourcing some early 60's Amperex White Label PQ 6922's, and some Mullard cv2492's.

As for the CCa tubes. I have tried many many 6922 and variants and the CCa blows them all away by a lot!

What CCa's are you talking about? All of them? I know Telefunken made some, as did Siemens, and maybe Amperex.


Thanks for the input. I'm really enoying getting to know all these vintage tubes!

headrott

Sorry, I should have said that I was talking about the Siemens CCa tubes. Also, I should clarify that the CCa's need to be from the late 50's or early 60's and have the grey shield, NOT the silver shield.The Siemens are absolutely the best CCa tubes made. They are all quiet, but the Siemens have the best tones, soundstage, highs, and lows out of all of them. This is a phenominal tube!

The Telefunken and Valvo CCa's are very good, but the Siemens are much much better.

Greg

TECHNOKID

Reported!

falconcry72

Sorry, I should have said that I was talking about the Siemens CCa tubes. Also, I should clarify that the CCa's need to be from the late 50's or early 60's and have the grey shield, NOT the silver shield.The Siemens are absolutely the best CCa tubes made. They are all quiet, but the Siemens have the best tones, soundstage, highs, and lows out of all of them. This is a phenominal tube!

The Telefunken and Valvo CCa's are very good, but the Siemens are much much better.

Greg

Very cool; thanks for the info.

BTW: the eagle has landed. My first piece of tubed audio gear is in the house. Lovin' it.

Hopefully I'll have some NOS Amperex's in the mail next week.

dbaldus

So, right out of the box, what's your initial impressions with the tube pre? Has it made a bigger / better / more noticeable difference than all of the DAC switching you've done over the past few months? Or did some of the DAC swapping make a bigger difference?

Just looking to get your initial thoughts, even before you get a chance to roll some nice tubes in there, as I'm looking at going the same route as you but haven't decided if I want to upgrade my DAC or get a tubed pre first.

falconcry72

dbaldus wrote: »

So, right out of the box, what's your initial impressions with the tube pre? Has it made a bigger / better / more noticeable difference than all of the DAC switching you've done over the past few months? Or did some of the DAC swapping make a bigger difference?

Just looking to get your initial thoughts, even before you get a chance to roll some nice tubes in there, as I'm looking at going the same route as you but haven't decided if I want to upgrade my DAC or get a tubed pre first.

Well, I've only had a few hours of listening pleasure, but this preamp has changed the sound of my system more than changing out any of the DAC's did. (for reference, I was switching between a Parasound DAC-2000 Ultra, Musical Fidelity M1, Benchmark DAC-1, and Audio GD NFB-7). The change has been good.

Having said that, even though the difference in SQ between the ARC LS-15 preamp and the Parasound PLD-2000 preamp is greater than the difference in SQ between the aforementioned DACs', which are all good, the difference in SQ between not using a good DAC and using a good DAC is greater than the difference between the (2) preamps. Make sense?

I see you're using a Benchmark DAC-1. That's a very good DAC. I would think that there are few, if any, DAC's in the world, at any price, that will make a significant difference in your SQ vs. the Benchmark.

From this one time experience, I would say that changing from a SS pre to a tubed pre will make a significant difference, as long as the quality of the tubed pre is higher than the quality of the SS pre.

So the two questions for you are:

- What are you using as a preamp now?

- How much are you looking to spend?

Cheers,

Ben

dbaldus

Thanks for the thorough response.

I'm using the DAC-1 (original version w/ standard op amps) as my DAC AND pre. I've considered picking up the W4S DAC-2 with the hope that it would be a better pre AND a better DAC than the Benchmark (again, the plan would be to use the DAC as a DAC/pre), but often wondered if it would be better to go with a real / stand-alone pre first. That being said, I'm looking to spend around $1500 and am interested in trying out some tubes.

Out of curiosity, what is it that you feel is "better" about using the ARC pre? Is it just a different sound because it's tubes, or has the sound quality (e.g., soundstage dimensions, instrument placement, etc.) improved?