To power condition or not?

myke

So i'm looking at power conditioners and wondering if its a good idea or not, couldn't I just use a surge protector for obvious reasons. I have no humming sounds and fairly stable power (compared to CA or the northeast).

Considerations:
-Belkin A/V Pure PF 60 or 31
-Panamax 4300
-Furman (if found for a comp price)

I saw a video on youtube from Virtual Dynamics, Rick Shultz, going over the pros and cons and aside from being rather insightful I have more questions now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyI85XOKzZ4&feature=related

An if I use the co-axel for my cable, then go to the cable box, then go & hdmi it to my tv (or hdmi to avr then hdmi to tv).....do I lose picture quality??!!

Any thoughts, recommendations,, reviews, experiences?

mantis

Check out APC , they are one of my personal and professional brands of choice. I also like Panamax as they are basically the inventors of Surge protection.
Depending on your budget looking at your system , I see a Panamax M5100-PM or a APC H15 in your future. If I had the choice I would go APC.
O and to answer your questions , no signal loss when going through the surge , I actually do it all the time with NON FIOS system, FIOS digital signal will not pass but most other cable systems do.

myke

Mantis, have you seen the link I posted also, any thoughts on the theory of too much grounding, filtering, etc......or do i not have the high end equip he is referencing?

Haven't looked at the APC yet though I planned on it, and I was looking at the M5100-PM too but forgot to mention it.

Thanks,

TECHNOKID

myke wrote: »

Mantis, have you seen the link I posted also, any thoughts on the theory of too much grounding, filtering, etc......or do i not have the high end equip he is referencing?

Haven't looked at the APC yet though I planned on it, and I was looking at the M5100-PM too but forgot to mention it.

Thanks,

There is no such thing as too much grounding (unless shorted to ground. ) ground is a must to properly complete the circuit. There is no such things as too much filtering as filtering removes ripples (unwanted spikes over the referenced power) which can create noize in the equipment so the more filtering the merrier.

skrol

I had been skeptical about the claims made for power conditioning. However, I took advantage to get a Monster HTS 3600mkII on the cheap and became a believer.

sk1939

I'd say Panmax or Furman are preferred I would say. Furman tends to be more towards commercial rather than residential though, at least on the lower end of the spectrum.

TECHNOKID

As mantis points out, go with APC effective and innexpensive. Correct, Furman is used more for commercial and semi proffessional rahter than home use but of course nothing wrong using at home if extra cash is no biggy.

F1nut

PS Audio or Shunyata.

dorokusai

Panamax or high end, Shunyata.

myke

Thanks guys, appreciate all the advice. As soon as my older LCD (3 yrs old) sells i'm going to prob get one. In my price range I'm thinking Panamax or APC. Does no one think highly of Belkin?

sk1939

Shunyata? Really? That's like a $1600 unit at least, which I think is a bit much for a glorified power strip.

The Belkin is fine, and has some nice features like multiple filter banks. The only thing is that APC and Panamax tend to be more highly rated, but they also cost significantly more.

TECHNOKID

sk1939 wrote: »

Shunyata? Really? That's like a $1600 unit at least, which I think is a bit much for a glorified power strip.

The Belkin is fine, and has some nice features like multiple filter banks. The only thing is that APC and Panamax tend to be more highly rated, but they also cost significantly more.

+1 on the entire post. I really like Belkin products however APC (not as familiar with Panamax) rating is usually the deal breaker (not counting that in my area APC is readily available). As far as Shunyata, I will not even debate this (as it is a matter of choice), depending on your overall system cost, that might be an option for some.

BlueFox

sk1939 wrote: »

Shunyata? Really? That's like a $1600 unit at least, which I think is a bit much for a glorified power strip.

Actually, it is $5K for the 8 port model, and I suspect worth every penny. If anybody knows power it is Shunyata. If you have no experience with their gear, and apparently know little or nothing about power conditioners, it is best to keep quiet.

RuSsMaN

If you don't need one, why buy one?

sk1939

BlueFox wrote: »

Actually, it is $5K for the 8 port model, and I suspect worth every penny. If anybody knows power it is Shunyata. If you have no experience with their gear, and apparently know little or nothing about power conditioners, it is best to keep quiet.

I manage a datacenter, and have worked in many a recording studio, so I like to think I know at least something about power conditioners, although that tends to be more for commcercial equipment rather than for audiophiles. Apparently you know nothing about me and are fixed in your ways believeing everyone own's a $15k audio system.

$5000 is $5000 and still quite a bit of change. As Technokid said, it is probably far out of the budget of many, including myself. Regardless of it's filtering, it still takes one plug and creates many, classifying it under the moniker, multiple outlet strip.

FTGV

sk1939 wrote: »

I manage a datacenter, and have worked in many a recording studio, so I like to think I know at least something about power conditioners, ...

Apparently many studio's have adopted the balanced isolation transformer approach pioneered by EquiTech's Martin Glasband.It makes a lot sense operating the AC differentially with two 60 VAC runs of opposite phase.In theory atleast the result is the same as with balanced audio signals , high common mode rejection of noise.EqiTech would be on my short list if I felt my AC was in need of conditioning.

BlueFox

sk1939 wrote: »

I manage a datacenter, and have worked in many a recording studio, so I like to think I know at least something about power conditioners,

"The Anaconda PowerSnakes, have transformed our Sonoma system, used during the mastering process for the new 5.1 SACD mix of 'The Dark Side of The Moon'."
-- James Guthrie, Grammy award winning Producer/Engineer (Pink Floyd)

"We now use the Hydra's on our Model 2 converters, AES router and main monitor system consisting of B&W 802 speakers and Chord Amps."
-- Clayton Wood, Senior Engineer: SkyWalker Sound

"I could not recommend Shunyata Research products highly enough."
-- Rick Rubin, Five-time Grammy nominated Record Producer

"With digital sources it was almost as if we had switched from 44.1k/16 bit to96k/24 bit. We now run all our analogue machines, workstations and the mixing console from the Shunyata equipment."
-- Andy Jackson, Senior Mastering Engineer: Astoria Studio UK

"I would highly recommend Shunyata Research products to any professional
audio/video facility."
-- Vlado Meller, Senior Mastering Engineer: Sony Music Studios, New York

"I can honestly say that Shunyata Power Systems do contribute to a more solid, focused and accurate sonic picture."
-- Tom Jung, President: Digital Music Products Inc.

"Shunyata Research's power distribution products have provided me with an extremely clean and transparent foundation by which I can check test pressings with full confidence."
-- Steven Epstein, Producer, 12 time Grammy winner

"I've run out of words to describe the profound effect Shunyata Research products have had on the SACD experience in our studio."
-- Jon Truckenmiller, Sr. VP Engineering: Crest National Studios

"Overall I think that Shunyata products are an integral part of taking the critical listening system to the next level."
-- Brett Allen, Studio Manager: Look Out Sound Studios

"I no longer have to reach for my equalizers to find space for the details that I now have in spades. Lower noise levels let me get deeper into a mix without sacrificing power to my equipment. No anemic sounds here! Just music that always sounds right. I want to re-master my whole discography now!"
-- Phil Demetro, Mastering Engineer: The Lacquer Channel, Toronto

"...the system now produces an audio hologram that much more closely approximates a live performance. Thanks for your recommendation of this excellent product."
-- Doug Munch, New Jersey Philharmonic Orchestra

etc.

http://www.shunyata.com/Content/endorsements-Prof.html

TECHNOKID

BlueFox wrote: »

Actually, it is $5K for the 8 port model, and I suspect worth every penny. If anybody knows power it is Shunyata. If you have no experience with their gear, and apparently know little or nothing about power conditioners, it is best to keep quiet.

BlueFox wrote: »

Actually, it is $5K for the 8 port model, and I suspect worth every penny. If anybody knows power it is Shunyata. If you have no experience with their gear, and apparently know little or nothing about power conditioners, it is best to keep quiet.

I sure don't want to start a debate here (and hope westom won't show up. :rolleyes: )but to to back sk1939 here some food for thought for you;

I onced been told (audiophile circle) that your cables and related filtering and protection should be approximately 10 - 15% (which I admit not to subcribe to) of you system cost. So, IMHO, you would need to have a system worth over $50K in order to justify your $5K power conditioner and associated high end cables (maybe $2K - $2.5K???), correct?

So looking at the OP list of gear in his signature (which is decent but far from being in the $50K area) how would you justify potentially having cables and conditionning of this price tag for his gear????

How about your own system, do you own the Shunyata conditioner, is your system worth that much? I your above post, your examples relate to studio and audio businesses. Do you really consider your HOME AUDIO system at the same level as theirs? Is your audio system in the SAME PRICE RANGE as the examples you are providing? ?are you trying to achieve the same results as those studios? If so, how many thousands are invested in your audio ''room within a room''? How many thousands are invested in soundproofing, sound management? IMHO, all of those aspects are interelated in the investment area. IMHO, the majority of the humble Polkies on this board may have 10 - 20K investment in their overall room and gear. What would be 10 - 15% of that?

Cheers!
TK

sk1939

FTGV wrote: »

Apparently many studio's have adopted the balanced isolation transformer approach pioneered by EquiTech's Martin Glasband.It makes a lot sense operating the AC differentially with two 60 VAC runs of opposite phase.In theory atleast the result is the same as with balanced audio signals , high common mode rejection of noise.EqiTech would be on my short list if I felt my AC was in need of conditioning.

It's hardly practical for a home solution though. In the datacentre we run everything off of 380V DC because it's cleaner and more efficient. Again, hardly practical for a home user though.

It is however, fascinating technology. The concept behind it is to take balanced power, and add isolation transformers to that.

Isolation transformers also isolate the ground cleaning power, which makes for good audio, and provides better impendence matching of a critical load to an electrical circuit. A good transformer provides 100% isolation from the incoming AC line. The transformer provide a ground by taking the ground and connecting it to the neutral conductor on the transformer secondary. Doing so eliminates neutral-to-ground voltage and potential ground noise.

Balanced power is sort of an iffy concept to me personally. I understand the concept, it's the application, like isolated ground, that I feel fall short.

Basically, when standard AC power is balanced, one side of the circuit has +60 Volts to ground while the other has -60 Volts to ground (for 120V), meaning that it is 180 degrees out of phase to each other in reference to ground. This is different from normal power which has +120 Volts from hot to ground, and 0 volts from neutral to ground. There is never any power present on the ground reference in a balanced power system. Transient voltages and reactive currents which normally would appear on the neutral and ground wires are also out of phase and as such, sum to null at the ground, and as a result cancels out AC hum and noise. Of course how it's applied in practice may vary.

DMara

I agree with TECHNOKID. I'd rather take care of the main components such as speakers/subs, receivers/processors/dacs, amps, and Bluray/DVD/CD/SACD players first before looking at expensive power conditioners / surge protectors.

Upstatemax

BlueFox wrote: »

"The Anaconda PowerSnakes, have transformed our Sonoma system, used during the mastering process for the new 5.1 SACD mix of 'The Dark Side of The Moon'."
-- James Guthrie, Grammy award winning Producer/Engineer (Pink Floyd)

"We now use the Hydra's on our Model 2 converters, AES router and main monitor system consisting of B&W 802 speakers and Chord Amps."
-- Clayton Wood, Senior Engineer: SkyWalker Sound

"I could not recommend Shunyata Research products highly enough."
-- Rick Rubin, Five-time Grammy nominated Record Producer

"With digital sources it was almost as if we had switched from 44.1k/16 bit to96k/24 bit. We now run all our analogue machines, workstations and the mixing console from the Shunyata equipment."
-- Andy Jackson, Senior Mastering Engineer: Astoria Studio UK

"I would highly recommend Shunyata Research products to any professional
audio/video facility."
-- Vlado Meller, Senior Mastering Engineer: Sony Music Studios, New York

"I can honestly say that Shunyata Power Systems do contribute to a more solid, focused and accurate sonic picture."
-- Tom Jung, President: Digital Music Products Inc.

"Shunyata Research's power distribution products have provided me with an extremely clean and transparent foundation by which I can check test pressings with full confidence."
-- Steven Epstein, Producer, 12 time Grammy winner

"I've run out of words to describe the profound effect Shunyata Research products have had on the SACD experience in our studio."
-- Jon Truckenmiller, Sr. VP Engineering: Crest National Studios

"Overall I think that Shunyata products are an integral part of taking the critical listening system to the next level."
-- Brett Allen, Studio Manager: Look Out Sound Studios

"I no longer have to reach for my equalizers to find space for the details that I now have in spades. Lower noise levels let me get deeper into a mix without sacrificing power to my equipment. No anemic sounds here! Just music that always sounds right. I want to re-master my whole discography now!"
-- Phil Demetro, Mastering Engineer: The Lacquer Channel, Toronto

"...the system now produces an audio hologram that much more closely approximates a live performance. Thanks for your recommendation of this excellent product."
-- Doug Munch, New Jersey Philharmonic Orchestra

etc.

http://www.shunyata.com/Content/endorsements-Prof.html

If they gave me free stuff, I would say the same...

It's not hard to get people to say nearly anything.

BlueFox

Upstatemax wrote: »

If they gave me free stuff, I would say the same...

It's not hard to get people to say nearly anything.

Exactly. Witness your post. A classic example of having no idea what you are talking about, but saying anything.


I paid $1300 each for two Shunyata Python CX power cords, one for each amp, and they made a tremendous positive improvement. I was really surprised because I was already using the Shunyata Venom power cable, $120, and that made a big improvement over the stock cable.

Recently, I upgraded my speaker cables to Shunyata Anaconda 8' cables at $3500. Once again, the step up in sound was an order of magnitude better. And this is all occurring on modest low-end gear.

I wish they gave me this for free, but they didn't. I did my research, and I worked and saved my money. Now I am being rewarded with an excellent sounding stereo. I have not bought any hardware for two years, but in that time I have upgraded all my cables, and done other tweaks. These things have paid off big time.

Oh yes, the Shunyata power conditioner is on the upgrade list, and it will be worth every penny.

Gatecrasher

BlueFox wrote: »

Actually, it is $5K for the 8 port model, and I suspect worth every penny. If anybody knows power it is Shunyata. If you have no experience with their gear, and apparently know little or nothing about power conditioners, it is best to keep quiet.

So based on your vast expertise on the subject........

If I were to listen to some high-end audio gear with zero power conditioning, and then connect everything to say a $1,000 power conditioner, and then connect it to this Shunyata unit which you claim to be the all-knowing guru of, would you expect that there would be a noticeable difference that just about anyone could discern?

unc2701

Simple hack to improve any outlet:
http://www.10audio.com/diy_power_conditioner.htm

Did this awhile back on a leviton hospital grade outlet and compared to a real Shunyata. Your mileage may vary, but I was satisfied with the results.

Upstatemax

BlueFox wrote: »

Exactly. Witness your post. A classic example of having no idea what you are talking about, but saying anything.


I paid $1300 each for two Shunyata Python CX power cords, one for each amp, and they made a tremendous positive improvement. I was really surprised because I was already using the Shunyata Venom power cable, $120, and that made a big improvement over the stock cable.

Recently, I upgraded my speaker cables to Shunyata Anaconda 8' cables at $3500. Once again, the step up in sound was an order of magnitude better. And this is all occurring on modest low-end gear.

I wish they gave me this for free, but they didn't. I did my research, and I worked and saved my money. Now I am being rewarded with an excellent sounding stereo. I have not bought any hardware for two years, but in that time I have upgraded all my cables, and done other tweaks. These things have paid off big time.

Oh yes, the Shunyata power conditioner is on the upgrade list, and it will be worth every penny.

If spending $6,000 on wire makes you feel better, go for it.

But I have found it's entirely a mental thing...

You WANT it to sound better, so it does. To you.

Enjoy your system.

playback

It all starts with clean power, get the best you can afford. I use a PS audio Quintet and a Soloist Premier for my 2 channel amp. The difference was staggering:eek:

FTGV

sk1939 wrote: »

It's hardly practical for a home solution though.

EquiTech and a few others offer balanced power units designed specifically for home use.

The concept behind it is to take balanced power, and add isolation transformers to that.

To clarify,it is the transformer that does the single ended to balanced conversion(120VAC on the primarmies,2 x 60 VAC on the secondaries).

Balanced power is sort of an iffy concept to me personally.

But then you list some of the potential benifits.

Basically, when standard AC power is balanced, one side of the circuit has +60 Volts to ground while the other has -60 Volts to ground (for 120V), meaning that it is 180 degrees out of phase to each other in reference to ground. This is different from normal power which has +120 Volts from hot to ground, and 0 volts from neutral to ground. There is never any power present on the ground reference in a balanced power system. Transient voltages and reactive currents which normally would appear on the neutral and ground wires are also out of phase and as such, sum to null at the ground, and as a result cancels out AC hum and noise. Of course how it's applied in practice may vary.