Losing hair & sleep. Polkies need your help.

angelsfann02

Also posted this on another forum ,but polkies tend to be alot more helpful.
Here it is....I have a Pioneer vsx-23thx avr. Love it for movies, not so much for 2-channel listening which I have been doing more often. Whether its listening to cd's (Pioneer bdp-05fd) or ipod, the sound is ok but not like "wow". I know this avr is capable of producing great sound.
Here are my current settings. I did the MCACC setup upon purchase. When I get ready to do 2-channel listening I set it to "pure direct" mode. The receiver volumes always around -28dbs. Some of you may recall I smoked my xover & tweeter on my lsi15 a few weeks ago. Yet I continue to hear guys saying they crank their volume lower! I was just listening at this volume when it happened. The receiver was set to "stereo" mode when this occured not "pure direct". The "stereo" mode seems brighter to me and its funny because even at the same volume on the avr, it sounds louder than pure direct. I know some of you guys with Pioneers or experience with them can help. If you dont mind please share your specific settings for 2-channel on your Pio. Thanks.

heiney9

angelsfann02 wrote: »

I have a Pioneer vsx-23thx avr. Love it for movies, not so much for 2-channel listening which I have been doing more often. I know this avr is capable of producing great sound.
Some of you may recall I smoked my xover & tweeter on my lsi15 a few weeks ago. Yet I continue to hear guys saying they crank their volume lower! I was just listening at this volume when it happened..

Receivers aren't going to sound that great running 2-channel and then add in a difficult to drive load like the LSi's, forget it. The receiver is NOT capable of great 2-ch sound, pushing LSi's.

Either get an external amp (something other than Emotiva) if this unit has pre-outs or look for another solution for your 2-channel needs. You've aleady proved it's not up to the task if you fried a x-over and don't care for the 2-channel sound.

Sorry, but sometimes the truth is hard to swallow.

H9

tonyb

Have the 21, the next model down from your avr. I agree, it didn't sound that great for 2 channel on it's own. My amp and some different cables brought the music back from the dead. Your other issue is playing the Ipod through the receiver. Dude, that is the worst possible way to listen to music. Get yourself a dac, to me anyway, the ipod jack on receivers is totally useless, if you value SQ at all.
Try a different coax digital cable from the bdp to receiver, I'm guessing you have it hooked up by hdmi, so try a digital cable to the cd input. I liked it better in my setup.

angelsfann02

I tried a few different amps, an Emotiva xpa-5, an Adcom gfa-5500 and a gfa-545 that I bought off Mole. For reference I also used my Adcom gtp-500 tuner for comparison. The adcom tuner made all 3 amps sound waaaayyyy better, but its not for hometheater use. Next connected all 3 amps to the Pio. I was still not happy. I am real happy with the Emotiva xpa-5, and the power it provides. Like I said, movies sound great on the Pio avr, and I was hoping I just had the settings wrong.

heiney9

A receiver as a 2-channel pre-amp isn't going to get it done. Then add the Emotiva to the mix and that's why you are not happy. Even the Emo will sound a little better with a dedicated 2-channel pre-amp. But Emo wouldn't be on my list if I was looking for good 2-channel performance.

H9

angelsfann02

Any suggestions of pre's that are good for double duty? Ht & 2-channel?

heiney9

angelsfann02 wrote: »

Any suggestions of pre's that are good for double duty? Ht & 2-channel?

Budget? Because pre-amp/processors aren't cheap. I suppose there is no way to seperate the two systems? It's a common dilema trying to get great performance for both HT and 2 channel music listening in a singular system w/o breaking the bank.

H9

angelsfann02

Yes, unfortunately wanting to keep it simple. Might be wishful thinking. My budget would be at about $800 max. Used gear would be most likely the route I would go.

tonyb

A receiver may not be the ultimate for 2 channel, but good sound can be had with one. Takes alittle trial and error is all.
Is your bdp connected by hdmi alone ? Did you try adding analog cables to the cd input on the receiver ? Coax digital ? What kind of cables are you using ? Believe me, it makes a difference. Try adding a tube buffer between the amp and receiver, another option.

AsSiMiLaTeD

If your budget is $800 (as in total for pre amp and amp) I'd highly recommend one of the SC models from Pioneer, whatever you can find a good deal on will work, they all sound about the same.

It's still a 'receiver' *gasp*, but it's also very good at 2 channel music. If you want strictly 2 channel, then there are likely integrated amps in that price range that will sound better, but if you want a mix of 2 channel and movies, you won't do better than one of those SC receivers in that price range.

If you only need a pre, then I still think the SC is a good deal at that price range, but you may be able to find something like a B&K or Sunfire preamp that's a few years old that would be better for music.

If you want both, and want music and movies, and want to spend $800, then I dare someone to point out a better option.

angelsfann02

tonyb wrote: »

A receiver may not be the ultimate for 2 channel, but good sound can be had with one. Takes alittle trial and error is all.
Is your bdp connected by hdmi alone ? Did you try adding analog cables to the cd input on the receiver ? Coax digital ? What kind of cables are you using ? Believe me, it makes a difference. Try adding a tube buffer between the amp and receiver, another option.

Hdmi for bluray (cd) player. Ipod connects via input in the front of the avr.

angelsfann02

Sucks to think I still coulda had a Pio sc receiver for $499 at bestbuy clearence. But I already had my current avr.

reeltrouble1

angels,

Your best solution would be a 2ch preamp with an HT by-pass. If you are using mp-3 compressed signals please understand the higher the resolution of your system the worse flawed recording sounds.

RT1

chandler9a

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

angels,

Your best solution would be a 2ch preamp with an HT by-pass. If you are using mp-3 compressed signals please understand the higher the resolution of your system the worse flawed recording sounds.

RT1

I agree with the pre with HT by-pass. How about something like an Adcom GFP-750? you would still need to find an amp however. To take the price down you could look for a parasound 2100 which also has a HT by-pass I believe.

Good Luck!

angelsfann02

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

angels,

Your best solution would be a 2ch preamp with an HT by-pass. If you are using mp-3 compressed signals please understand the higher the resolution of your system the worse flawed recording sounds.

RT1

Any good suggestions?

reeltrouble1

hhhmmm...the point of the by-pass is to allow the same amplifier to be used for 2ch and HT, the receiver would be used for HT and the 2ch pre for music...when I was doing this I picked up a nice source and ran it straight to the 2ch pre for music. Recievers are awesome for HT, unfortunately their electronic parts design are not the best for a musical signal transfer.

It is not unusual at all that HT sparks a renewed interest in 2ch stereo listening...both are fun and satisfying.

RT1

reeltrouble1

angelsfann02 wrote: »

Any good suggestions?

well that adcom is popular, a Heiny9 favorite...of course me being a tube guy I used products made by Gary Dodd...tough to find now though..his ELP could be made with a by-pass, I also used his MLP pre which is awesome, I passed that on and ttreiz has it now.

Anyway there are any number of them depending on price point. I moved to seperate rigs years ago, so perhaps something is now available I am not aware of that the membership is using or the google. In any event using one is the best way to do a dual purpose rig.

RT1

EDUBAG

i have the same receiver you have and when i started going into 2 channel i had to separate the systems.

i use the avr for movies powering my rti4 and csi3 for the fronstage and some deftech promonitor as surrounds.

use a rotel rc990bx preamp and rb990bx amp for music in 2 channel and it sounds great i mean really great.

another way is using an amp selector, i have one from niles and just pushing a button to switch amps when doing movies you select the avr and when 2 channel just get a very good integrated and select it.

good luck

eduardo

angelsfann02

Reeltrouble, I didnt think it would be this difficult to do the whole 2-channel thing in my living room!
Mind you my main 2-channel system is in my garage. I have the Adcom gtp500, adcom 5500, adcom 545, and a pair of rt55's and a pair of rt800's.
This all started because my detached garage is hot as heck (110deg.) and I wanted to listen to music in the house. At this poing it may be cheaper to put a swamp cooler in the old garage!!!

reeltrouble1

well maybe it would.....here is something...not exactly inexpensive but a nice piece.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1316263889&/Cambridge-Audio-Azur-840e-Prea

reeltrouble1

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1318455524&/Parasound-2100-stereo-pre-ht-b

a less expensive Parasound, much less

angelsfann02

I realize that Emotiva is not popular around here, but for those of you who may have experience with it, how would the upa-1 work in this instance? The Emo website states it will integrate well with existing ht systems.

angelsfann02

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1318455524&/Parasound-2100-stereo-pre-ht-b

a less expensive Parasound, much less

Nice. Real nice. Too nice for me! Haha.

cstmar01

A nice pre amp would also be the parasound p3 model which can be found for around 500 used and offers ht bypass also the parasound 2100 works well too. Others like musical fidelity are nice but higher in price.

One of my tags would be adcom gfp750 which goes around 600-750 used. Very good sound and offers passive mode is a huge plus.

angelsfann02

Does the adcom offer ht bypass? Am I correct in thinking that this allows these preamps to be used
inconjunction with my avr? Or.....

evhudsons

I am not familiar with the difference between the 2ch setup versus HT receivers. I use my old Marantz for records and the tuner, but because I share the speakers in my setup, I preout from the Marantz to my avr, also a Pioneer. It sounds fine to me. The AVR came with an ipod connection, but I prefer the headphone jack to rca inputs. For the best sound for music, I've been streaming flac and wav music files from my computer to my ps3, and it sounds fantastic. But after reading this thread, what am I missing out on? Is there a way I can separate my Marantz while still using the same speakers? I know the stereo receiver isn't super powerful or modern, but it does sound really nice. Is it considered 2ch versus my AVR? I have no problem with my AVR, but I thought that some of the recordings played that weren't great was simply because of the source. I wanted to be able to switch between the amps but using the polks I have for just the marantz stereo directly. I couldn't figure out how, so that is why I preamped it to the Pioneer.
I am interested in learning more about this, but the jargon here is new to me.
thanks for the info!

reeltrouble1

angelsfann02 wrote: »

Does the adcom offer ht bypass? Am I correct in thinking that this allows these preamps to be used
inconjunction with my avr? Or.....

You would only use the 2ch pre when listening to music. You would use the pioneer for your ht, the idea is to allow for a shared amplifier between the two systems, you hook your music sources to the 2ch pre, you hook your dvd player to your receiver. I believe Chris is saying the 750 has a by-pass.

RT1

cstmar01

angelsfann02 wrote: »

Does the adcom offer ht bypass? Am I correct in thinking that this allows these preamps to be used
inconjunction with my avr? Or.....

Yes and they both integrate into one system. I've also owned the 2100 and it worked well for it's price point but the adcom is higher up the chain. There are better ones yet like Bat or pass labs ect. The system will work foe when you want to run 2 channel and ht and all be hooked together. Go to parasounds website and look at the manual for an idea as it words it better than I can on an iPhone.

angelsfann02

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

You would only use the 2ch pre when listening to music. You would use the pioneer for your ht, the idea is to allow for a shared amplifier between the two systems, you hook your music sources to the 2ch pre, you hook your dvd player to your receiver. I believe Chris is saying the 750 has a by-pass.

RT1

Sounds good, and makes sense except for the part of sharing the lsi15's. I cannot think of how the preamp would connect to the inputs of my amp, if all 5 inputs are already taken because of my avr?

AsSiMiLaTeD

I would recommend grabbing that SC from Leroy if its still available. That's a great price and is an excellent model. I would forget about the 2 channel pre for a moment and focus on the SC model.

You would get better HT and music over your 23 for sure. Will that music performance be 'good enough' for you? I don't know, you'll have to figure that out on your own. All I can tell you is what when I went from My vsx-21 to my SC-25 it was night and day difference.

I would say give the SC route a go first because at the very least you'll get a significant upgrade on the home theater side and if you still find the music lacking you still have the option of adding a dedicated 2 channel preamp.

I do not feel the need for the 2 channel pre, but that's on my gear, in my room, with my ears, but I can tell you that other who've heard it also think my 'modest' setup sounds phenomenal.

Systems

angelsfann02 wrote: »

I realize that Emotiva is not popular around here, but for those of you who may have experience with it, how would the upa-1 work in this instance? The Emo website states it will integrate well with existing ht systems.

..They will..and do sound great..mono blocks are they way too go for two channel...but they will work great for HT too...there are some really good used amps out there..Adcom..some Carvers..and so on..