Should I get my first tube amp?

DON73

I highly, highly recommend the Dared I-30, plus it's brand new with a warranty if that matters to you. Re-tubing any of your purchases is going to be expensive. The stock tubes that come with these are pretty mediocre.




I ordered this little amp and it's defective right out of the box. When I connected my speakers the midranges bottomed out with the volume all the way down and no input signal. The VU meter indicator bounces from 0-12 o'clock still with the volume turned all the way down and no input signal.:mad:

heiney9

DON73 wrote: »

I ordered this little amp and it's defective right out of the box. When I connected my speakers the midranges bottomed out with the volume all the way down and no input signal. The VU meter indicator bounces from 0-12 o'clock still with the volume turned all the way down and no input signal.:mad:

Damn, sorry to hear that! I have great luck with Dared. I'm sure Joe will take care of you, but that just sucks.........stuff like that shouldn't happen, but sometimes it just does.

Hopefully he'll get you squared away.

DON73

heiney9 wrote: »

Damn, sorry to hear that! I have great luck with Dared. I'm sure Joe will take care of you, but that just sucks.........stuff like that shouldn't happen, but sometimes it just does.

Hopefully he'll get you squared away.

H9 tell all your friends and neighbors that Dared and MIT may not always be a good match. I changed the MITS for some other cables I had been using and it's playing now. The MIT cables worked perfectly with my B&K power amp.
Don't know if this is common but it shocked the hell out of me!

heiney9

Hmmmm......I use MIT exclusively with all my Dared pieces and never an issue. I don't use speaker cables from MIT in the office rig. I use I/C's for the office rig and I/C's to the Dared pre in the main rig.

Well glad it's working now and you didn't do any damage to the integrated or worse yet your speakers. Pretty nice little unit. What speakers are you running again?

H9

DON73

heiney9 wrote: »

Hmmmm......I use MIT exclusively with all my Dared pieces and never an issue. I don't use speaker cables from MIT in the office rig. I use I/C's for the office rig and I/C's to the Dared pre in the main rig.

Well glad it's working now and you didn't do any damage to the integrated or worse yet your speakers. Pretty nice little unit. What speakers are you running again?

H9

Right now I'm using Polk Monitor 7s. I had some AR5s set up but they are a little power hungry. The speaker wires I've got hooked up now are some I got off Amazon for about $25. I have no idea why the MITs should cause a problem. What's in the little box at the end of the MIT cable?

DON73

The little tube amp is doing very well now. I am surprised at the volume this 30 watt amp produces at a fairly low setting. Although the amp sounds very nice I'm not yet astounded by the improvement over my ss amp. as I expected to be. Maybe I just don't hear as well as some here. I'll listen for about a week longer and hook the ss amp back in and see how I feel about the tube sound. I turn it on about 5am and I'll probably play the first cd around 6:30. By that time it's warmed up enough to be a fire hazard

The CL around here seldom has any audio equipment worth looking at unless you're looking for a "1200" watt amp along with a 15" woofer in a box covered with carpet.

heiney9

DON73 wrote: »

The little tube amp is doing very well now. I am surprised at the volume this 30 watt amp produces at a fairly low setting. Although the amp sounds very nice I'm not yet astounded by the improvement over my ss amp. as I expected to be. Maybe I just don't hear as well as some here. I'll listen for about a week longer and hook the ss amp back in and see how I feel about the tube sound. I turn it on about 5am and I'll probably play the first cd around 6:30. By that time it's warmed up enough to be a fire hazard

The CL around here seldom has any audio equipment worth looking at unless you're looking for a "1200" watt amp along with a 15" woofer in a box covered with carpet.

If you are using the stock tubes then you may not be wowed by it. Put some Winged C SED EL34's and some nice NOS 50's or 60's driver tubes in her and it will become an entirely different piece of gear. Plan on about $300-400 in expense to roll some really good tubes.

I have more $$$ in tubes than I do in the actual tube gear. That's just how it is, so many great choices in tubes. If one isn't willing to atleast try tube rolling with some stellar tubes, then they best not even buy any tube gear, IMO.

H9

tonyb

heiney9 wrote: »

If one isn't willing to atleast try tube rolling with some stellar tubes, then they best not even buy any tube gear, IMO.

H9

Agree with that....stock tubes don't reflect what a piece can truely do. It is however, a cost that alot of people don't figure on when diving into tubed gear. It doesn't have to be real expensive to get good tube sound,but it sure can be. Rolling tubes equates to tayloring the sound to your liking, which is harder to accomplish with SS gear. Again, trial and error is key here. Good luck with your new tube toy, happy listening.

rromeo923

I bought an used Yaqin MC-10l on audiogon for $350. Best money I ever spent. Truly affordable and truly amazing sounding amp! I have been so very happy with this purchase. Highly recommend to anyone trying to get into tubes at an affordable price.

DON73

heiney9 wrote: »

If you are using the stock tubes then you may not be wowed by it. Put some Winged C SED EL34's and some nice NOS 50's or 60's driver tubes in her and it will become an entirely different piece of gear. Plan on about $300-400 in expense to roll some really good tubes.

I have more $$$ in tubes than I do in the actual tube gear. That's just how it is, so many great choices in tubes. If one isn't willing to atleast try tube rolling with some stellar tubes, then they best not even buy any tube gear, IMO.

H9

Well I thought I'd like to hear tubes and this amp seems to be well thought of but I made a mistake buying it if I have to put another $400 in it just to get it to sound like it should. This is worse than the capacitor "discussions", speaker wire, interconnects and other "mods" that we have to be willing to spend money to get what we thought we paid for in the first place. When I buy a new car I don't run down and buy high performance tires, replace the brake pads with high efficiency pads or tear the sound system out and install one that sounds better.:biggrin: Doesn't make sense to me. Anyone want to buy a slightly used partially broken in tube amp?
I'm getting attached to the little amp.

polkfarmboy

I have the yaqin mc10l and I like it but I gotta change out the preamp section of the tubes .The pre section isnt that great especially for electrostats but have heard some love them for normal cones .I think my integrated looks super cool and is available from the same seller for $520 shipped http://cgi.ebay.com/YAQIN-MC-10L-Push-Pull-Integrated-Stereo-Tube-Amplifier-/130550544787?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC.OPJS%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUA%26otn%3D5%26pmod%3D140584411985%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D1920279845940739179#ht_2785wt_821

Hey michaeljhsda2 how do find the sound and power of that new ms20 yaqin compared to the mc10l ?

heiney9

DON73 wrote: »

Well I thought I'd like to hear tubes and this amp seems to be well thought of but I made a mistake buying it if I have to put another $400 in it just to get it to sound like it should. This is worse than the capacitor "discussions", speaker wire, interconnects and other "mods" that we have to be willing to spend money to get what we thought we paid for in the first place. When I buy a new car I don't run down and buy high performance tires, replace the brake pads with high efficiency pads or tear the sound system out and install one that sounds better.:biggrin: Doesn't make sense to me. Anyone want to buy a slightly used partially broken in tube amp?
I'm getting attached to the little amp.

Guess you haven't been paying attention when researching about modern tube amps. The tubes in production today that are included in almost all new offerings are made in China or Russia and are usually very cheap........in turn the products don't play to their full potential. You were complaining it didn't sound that much different than your SS amp. I simply stated why and how you could take furthur advantage of using tube gear.

If you are serious about tubes, you will need to do a little tube rolling if you want to get the best sound. There is no way around it and that's why I have stated hundreds of times, if you aren't willing to do a little tube rolling and experimenting, then don't get into tubes.

Unfortuneatly, like everything else NOS tubes have started to increase in price. The best value going right now for EL34's in the SED Winged C's, their price has jumped 60% in the past 9-12 months. They went from about $50/pr new to about $80/pr new.

Perhaps my calculations were a little high. If you are really interested I could give you some options at the driver position and probably come in lower than I initially posted, but the SED WInged C's are about $160/quad new.

H9

P.s. Some of the higer end tube manufacturer's don't include tubes, so the customer can buy their own depending on what they want to spend for waht level of sound.

P.s.s. This IS NOT the same as a cap or wire discussion.

michaeljhsda2

polkfarmboy wrote: »

Hey michaeljhsda2 how do find the sound and power of that new ms20 yaqin compared to the mc10l ?

The MS-20L is a step up in performance and features. Even though both amps are rated at 50 wpc, the edge goes to the MS-20L (remote control, headphone jack, UL and triode mode) over the MC-10L. This is the best the 1.2 TL's have ever sounded IMO.

DON73

heiney9 wrote: »

Guess you haven't been paying attention when researching about modern tube amps. The tubes in production today that are included in almost all new offerings are made in China or Russia and are usually very cheap........in turn the products don't play to their full potential. You were complaining it didn't sound that much different than your SS amp. I simply stated why and how you could take furthur advantage of using tube gear.

If you are serious about tubes, you will need to do a little tube rolling if you want to get the best sound. There is no way around it and that's why I have stated hundreds of times, if you aren't willing to do a little tube rolling and experimenting, then don't get into tubes.

Unfortuneatly, like everything else NOS tubes have started to increase in price. The best value going right now for EL34's in the SED Winged C's, their price has jumped 60% in the past 9-12 months. They went from about $50/pr new to about $80/pr new.

Perhaps my calculations were a little high. If you are really interested I could give you some options at the driver position and probably come in lower than I initially posted, but the SED WInged C's are about $160/quad new.

H9

P.s. Some of the higer end tube manufacturer's don't include tubes, so the customer can buy their own depending on what they want to spend for waht level of sound.

P.s.s. This IS NOT the same as a cap or wire discussion.

H9 try to be nice. I suspect you're a good person but damn! H9 sometimes your posts are caustic and that's not helpful to those of us who don't know a tenth of what you know about audio. I probably have about five years left to be able to appreciate the difference between good sound and mediocre sound and being able to spell mediocre.

I don't think I was complaining when I said whatever I said about the sound of the tube amp and the sound of my SS gear.
H9 you always say "As I've said a hundred times" show me
Please don't be defensive about what I say. You're right I didn't do enough research or I might not have bought an amp based on your recommendation:biggrin: I'm certainly not blaming anyone.........not even myself. Stuff happens.
If you have other specific recommendations for tubes I'd really like to consider them. You're as qualified to make recommendations as anyone here. You're just a bit grouchy! So what do you recommend?

heiney9

DON73 wrote: »

H9 try to be nice. I suspect you're a good person but damn! H9 sometimes your posts are caustic and that's not helpful to those of us who don't know a tenth of what you know about audio. I probably have about five years left to be able to appreciate the difference between good sound and mediocre sound and being able to spell mediocre.

I don't think I was complaining when I said whatever I said about the sound of the tube amp and the sound of my SS gear.
H9 you always say "As I've said a hundred times" show me
Please don't be defensive about what I say. You're right I didn't do enough research or I might not have bought an amp based on your recommendation:biggrin: I'm certainly not blaming anyone.........not even myself. Stuff happens.
If you have other specific recommendations for tubes I'd really like to consider them. You're as qualified to make recommendations as anyone here. You're just a bit grouchy! So what do you recommend?

Sorry man, I don't mean to come off that way. I'm just too the point when I write :redface:.

I am willing to help you in any way possible if you want to some suggestions about different tubes, etc. It is unfortunate to pay a pretty good chunk of change and not get great tubes with your purchase. I am afraid that's how tube gear is unless you really buy something very expensive.

I feel the SED Winged C EL34's are excellent for their price, probably one, if not the best, below original Mullards which are outta sight anymore. There is a Mullard re-issue made by New Sensor (Russian) but I don't think they sound quite as nice, but they are cheaper. Some like the Electro-Harmonix EL34's, I have a pair and they are pretty grainy and little "raspy" not very well focused or less smooth in the midrange. Yet others like the JJ E34L. I have a pair of those and they have a very "big" bottom end and decent midrange and the highs aren't as grainy as the EH's.

The SED Winged C's are very balanced with excellent midrange and very nice airy highs. It's a very nicely balanced tube. If you really watch EBAY sometimes you can get a great deal on slightly used tubes, although lately with new Winged C's increasing in price so do the used ones.

Some here have experience with a new, hihger end line of Chinese tubes called PSVANE, I haven't tried them because I am leery of Chinese tubes and the PSVANE are pretty pricey, more expensive the SED Winged C's and I love the Winged C's.

Next I'll make some recommendations on your driver tubes.

H9

P.s. The original Tesla EL34 tubes were excellent as well, but they command very high prices. Only about 20% less than original Mullards.

DON73

This amp has 8 tubes. Four large ones across the back and four smaller ones in front. The ones in the back are Rubys but I can't read the numbers. The badges on the smaller ones have curled up and fallen off:rolleyes:
Are there two tubes for the preamp and two for the power amp? Which is which and do all tubes fit every tube socket? The reason I ask (besides not knowing) there are several EL34 tubes on Audiogon and sometimes on e-bay and they are all the size of the larger ones in my amp.
I just switched back to the B&K power amp and Adcom pre and I have to say there is a real difference in the sound. My musical tone memory is about as long and as dependable as a part of my anatomy which I can't name on a family forum. Thanks for the recommendations.

xsmi

DON73 wrote: »

I just switched back to the B&K power amp and Adcom pre and I have to say there is a real difference in the sound.

which do you prefer?

heiney9

Don, the four large tubes (two for each channel) are the power tubes. I believe that amp is shipped with EL34 which is also the same as a 6CA7. There are lots of varieties of EL34's available. I gave you a brief rundown of the more popular brands. Beware with ANY tube they can have many labels or manufacturer's brands but are still the exact same tube. Their simply weren't that many actual tube manufacturer's that made their own EL34's. Most of the early ones were either made by Mullard or Telefunken (those are very expensive).

There was an Ameican version called a 6CA7 it tends to be a little fatter tube and should fit in your amp.

I gave you some of the better lower cost current production EL34 suggestions. Original Mullards or Telefunkens (even the East German RFT made EL34's) are super expensive. If you find some tubes for sale, post them here and I can identify them for you. On older NOS EL34's always get good pics and/or the production codes so you know exactly what you are buying.

Or to keep it simple buy a quad of SED Winged C EL34's and be done with it.

The pre-amp/driver tubes are also important. There are two for each channel (1) is a 12AX7 (1) is a 12AU7. This is where I would recommend you buy a really nice pair of old tubes for each position. I can make recommendations as well, but it would help if you could give me a budget to work with. 12AX7 and 12AU7 are very popular so the older tubes will be more expensive.

NO, YOU CANNOT PUT ANY OF THE TUBES IN ANY SPOT. The 12AX7 must go where they are supposed to, same for the 12AU7. Obviously the EL34's can only go in one spot.

Your amp is a self biasing amp so while it's nice to get your power tubes (EL34's) closely matched, it's not as important because the self biasing will "pick up the slack" so to speak. Always try to buy tubes that are somewhat matched.

Does any of this help?

H9

heiney9

To complicate things a bit, your amp is also capable of using 6L6 power tubes instead of EL34 power tubes. You could certainly look at that option if you want. The 6L6's have a different tone and presentation. I will state right up front the best 6L6 ever made is the 50-60's RCA black plate gray glass, but they are pricey and will last a lifetime. Newer 6L6's pale in comparison.

H9

DON73

xsmi wrote: »

which do you prefer?

The tube amp. It has more separation and some of the upper midrange is clearer. Some instruments liked the picked guitar are just more there.....if that makes sense. To be fair I've never been crazy about the B&K amp. and I need to put one of my Adcom 5800s in the system before I say the tube amp is really better than SS.

Tbone289

There's a nice Dared I30 just posted in the for sale section in your price range...

heiney9

Tbone289 wrote: »

There's a nice Dared I30 just posted in the for sale section in your price range...

Hmmm......he wasn't buying an amp. The I-30 is the amp the OP currently has.

H9

DON73

heiney9 wrote: »

Don, the four large tubes (two for each channel) are the power tubes. I believe that amp is shipped with EL34 which is also the same as a 6CA7. There are lots of varieties of EL34's available. I gave you a brief rundown of the more popular brands. Beware with ANY tube they can have many labels or manufacturer's brands but are still the exact same tube. Their simply weren't that many actual tube manufacturer's that made their own EL34's. Most of the early ones were either made by Mullard or Telefunken (those are very expensive).

There was an Ameican version called a 6CA7 it tends to be a little fatter tube and should fit in your amp.

I gave you some of the better lower cost current production EL34 suggestions. Original Mullards or Telefunkens (even the East German RFT made EL34's) are super expensive. If you find some tubes for sale, post them here and I can identify them for you. On older NOS EL34's always get good pics and/or the production codes so you know exactly what you are buying.

Or to keep it simple buy a quad of SED Winged C EL34's and be done with it.

The pre-amp/driver tubes are also important. There are two for each channel (1) is a 12AX7 (1) is a 12AU7. This is where I would recommend you buy a really nice pair of old tubes for each position. I can make recommendations as well, but it would help if you could give me a budget to work with. 12AX7 and 12AU7 are very popular so the older tubes will be more expensive.

NO, YOU CANNOT PUT ANY OF THE TUBES IN ANY SPOT. The 12AX7 must go where they are supposed to, same for the 12AU7. Obviously the EL34's can only go in one spot.

Your amp is a self biasing amp so while it's nice to get your power tubes (EL34's) closely matched, it's not as important because the self biasing will "pick up the slack" so to speak. Always try to buy tubes that are somewhat matched.

Does any of this help?

H9

Very helpful Brock. I've decided to get the SED L 34s. I just have to find the most reputable on line dealer. The Tube Store has them for <$80. I didn't find them at any other dealer. Some of the sites are not well set up and finding a particular tube can take some searching. I found some of the preamp tubes you recommended and I'l go back and take another look at them. When you say "older" do you mean NOS? Another question.....does the quality of this amp warrant another $300 investment or should I look at used amps already equipped with quality tubes? Thanks Don


Why the 20 minute limit on editing?

Tbone289

heiney9 wrote: »

Hmmm......he wasn't buying an amp. The I-30 is the amp the OP currently has.

H9

Doh! Sorry, my confusion...

heiney9

DON73 wrote: »

Very helpful Brock. I've decided to get the SED L 34s. I just have to find the most reputable on line dealer. The Tube Store has them for <$80. I didn't find them at any other dealer. Some of the sites are not well set up and finding a particular tube can take some searching. I found some of the preamp tubes you recommended and I'l go back and take another look at them. When you say "older" do you mean NOS? Another question.....does the quality of this amp warrant another $300 investment or should I look at used amps already equipped with quality tubes? Thanks Don


Why the 20 minute limit on editing?

It absolutely warrants better tubes. If you do get premium tubes with another used amp you are usually paying a premium price. Many tube guys who have been doing this for awhile will sell the premium tubes separately because they can get more.

When I have some time shortly I'll post some 12AX and 12AU recommedations.

H9

ryan4blu

primaluna makes fantasic amps, but they are a bit higher than you want to spent.

heiney9

DON,

A pair of these would be excellent in the 12AX7 position!

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstube&1316025136&/Raytheon-12ax7/Ecc83--Long-Bla

A pair of the 12AU7's from this ad would be excellent as well. RFT, especially earlier ones like these are an excellent tube.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstube&1315489852&/Nib-rft-ecc82/12au7-pair-also-

Those are my recommendation's based on what is currently on Audiogon and what I consider very reasonably priced tubes that I know sound fantastic.

H9

heiney9

Tbone289 wrote: »

There's a nice Dared I30 just posted in the for sale section in your price range...

heiney9 wrote: »

Hmmm......he wasn't buying an amp. The I-30 is the amp the OP currently has.

H9

Tbone289 wrote: »

Doh! Sorry, my confusion...

Double doh!!! I totally forgot the OP is looking for an amp! We got so far off track trying to help DON73 with some recommendations, I totally lost track of the original post.

To the OP,

The Dared I-30 posted in the FS section (the same amp DON73 has) would be a good choice for what you are trying to do.

Hope that helps and sorry for the confusion.

H9

inspiredsports

Should I get my first tube amp?

You won't know until you try.

I vote, "yes".

thetawave2

heiney9 wrote: »

Double doh!!! I totally forgot the OP is looking for an amp! We got so far off track trying to help DON73 with some recommendations, I totally lost track of the original post.

To the OP,

The Dared I-30 posted in the FS section (the same amp DON73 has) would be a good choice for what you are trying to do.

Hope that helps and sorry for the confusion.

H9

Haha that's quite all right. I was happy to see another user getting some advice, especially since I might benefit from it later myself.