Should I get my first tube amp?

thetawave2

Hey guys,

Just a little preliminary thread before I start doing serious research. I'm looking to buy myself a fairly serious 2-channel amplifier around Christmas time. I'm looking to buy used and my budget is $750 max.

This will be used with a Denon DVD player spinning audio CDs, 100% music, pushing a pair of Tannoy D-100's (produced mid-nineties; I have not found much info online besides this --> http://www.hilberink.nl/codehans/tannoy136.htm). It will be replacing an Onkyo TX-DS787 home theater receiver, biwired with the woofers driven by the surround channels and the tweeters on the fronts. I currently listen to music from quiet to moderately loud volumes, spanning a range of genres from classical (Mozart, Beethoven) to house and electronic (Deadmau5).

My first question is whether or not my speakers are likely to be a good match for a tube amplifier. The sensitivity rating I've seen for my speakers is 88.5 db. I believe they are 8 ohm load. Since these will be used in a fairly small room and at quiet to moderate volume levels, I imagine it would be feasable to drive them with a tube amp rated somewhere around 40 or 50 watts per channel. However, I have read in a couple places about distorsion and coloration when driving speakers whose sensitivities are on the lower side. Perhaps that was more specific to the amplifier or tubes being discussed than I thought. Some warmth would not be an issue with my speakers as they are very detailed and slightly on the bright side. However, I am developing a fairly discerning ear, and I want to have a high-fidelity sound without too much coloration.

Second, quality is a concern with my limited budget. Is it worth a foray into the world of tubes considering my very limited budget? I don't want something too entry-level. I plan on sticking with my next amplifier for quite some time, and I don't want something I'll soon grow out of.

I am intrigued by tubes, but maybe solid state is the way for me to go at this point, if it will make a better match with my speakers and if I can get much more quality for my limited money. Any thoughts?

(PS I know tubes won't do well with the pounding bass of house music. I'd probably still listen to that kind of thing on the Onkyo, which I'll pass along to my brother along with my Monitor 40's)

Big Dawg

Yes - try to find something like an Anthem 1 amp, you'll be very happy.

thsmith

+1 ^^^^^^^^^

heiney9

So are you looking for an integrated tube amp or a tube power amp? If the latter, what pre-amp are you running? Then Anthem 1 is a good recommendation, but it's a power amp not an integrated. Since you didn't list a pre-amp in your OP, then I am assuming you want an integrated amp.

H9

thetawave2

I am looking for an integrated amp, H9. If I could get a pre-/ power-amp combo for the same price and get the same performance, that would work too. Somehow I doubt that would happen though haha

Erik Tracy

thetawave2 wrote: »

I am looking for an integrated amp, H9. If I could get a pre-/ power-amp combo for the same price and get the same performance, that would work too. Somehow I doubt that would happen though haha

Don't underestimate the sound quality you can get in an integrated amp.

For a given price point, you may get better sound in an integrated than having to buy both a separate pre-amp AND power amp as there are cost savings in a single chassis and power supply which could mean better components in the integrated....generally speaking, of course.

Joe08867

I would find a good Tube Preamp like the Dared in the FM and a good SS amp like a B&K to keep the warmth.

For the money that would be your best bet.

thetawave2

Erik Tracy wrote: »

Don't underestimate the sound quality you can get in an integrated amp.

For a given price point, you may get better sound in an integrated than having to buy both a separate pre-amp AND power amp as there are cost savings in a single chassis and power supply which could mean better components in the integrated....generally speaking, of course.

I thought that was the case

heiney9

With the Dared you are set because it comes with some nice tubes and rectifiers right off the bat. Plus, I know Dave and the piece itself and it's a stellar piece.

Great suggestion Joe

thetawave2

That does seem like a very nice preamp but it would only leave me a couple hundred bucks to spend on a power amp! I think integrated would probably be the way to go for me....

heiney9

For 88dB speakers you will need something robust. A nice EL34 based unit would be nice. (4) EL34's and myriad of signal input tubes = a fair amount of heat. Keep that in mind when running tube gear especially in a smaller room.

There are times in the Summer right now, even with air conditioning, it's just too hot to run tubes in the office rig. It's one thing most don't think of. My brother had to go with a SS rig for his upstairs office because the tubes were just too hot. It would raise the room temp by 7-10* in the summer with the air running. Granted it was a power amp (4) EL34's and pre-amp.

H9

thetawave2

heiney9 wrote: »

For 88dB speakers you will need something robust. A nice EL34 based unit would be nice. (4) EL34's and myriad of signal input tubes = a fair amount of heat. Keep that in mind when running tube gear especially in a smaller room.

There are times in the Summer right now, even with air conditioning, it's just too hot to run tubes in the office rig. It's one thing most don't think of. My brother had to go with a SS rig for his upstairs office because the tubes were just too hot. It would raise the room temp by 7-10* in the summer with the air running. Granted it was a power amp (4) EL34's and pre-amp.

H9

I figured I would have to look on the more powerful side. Would going for more power at a given price point mean that I'm sacrificing too much quality? I really want a serious amplifier that sounds great (as great as under a thousand dollars will get me haha), not just something that has the specs to push my speakers. Again, if I can get much better sound at this price point from a solid state amplifier I wouldn't be heartbroken to forget about tubes this time around. I'm just getting started on audio as a hobby, after all.

I definitely wouldn't have figured tubes threw off that much heat! Thanks for pointing that out. Heat is definitely something to consider, but I don't think it will be a dealbreaker.

Evrythngmatters

I just got into tubes and my first was an inexpensive little hybrid. Over the weekend I picked up a true tube piece.... a Sophie Baby tube amp. A very musical piece that does not need a preamp as it has a volume control. Only 1 set of inputs on the back so if you needed more connections a pre would be needed. A great sounding piece of tube gear on the cheap. Just a suggestion and remember that I am new to this as well.

Tbone289

Evrythngmatters wrote: »

Over the weekend I picked up a true tube piece.... a Sophie Baby tube amp.

link? I find no reference to a Sophie Baby amp. Is that Sophia Baby?

thetawave2

Idk if 10 watts per channel is enough for me and my 88.5 db sensitivity speakers.... I think I'm looking for something closer to 40 or 50 wpc

Joe08867

That is why I suggested what I did. You will still have 99% of that tube tone and all the warmth of a B&K Amp.

You will get a lot more bang for your buck and you can always save up for a better tube amp instead of an integrated. I have owned two integrated tube setups and prefer separates by a long way.

I also used a tube pre with a B&K and prefer that to many integrated tubes I have heard. It was like the best of both worlds.

If you are looking for the same quality and the higher output in tubes you may need to cough up more cash.

Although I saw a Yaqin on the bay for 650.

Yaqin MC-100B

Joe08867

There is also an Anthem 1 for 600.

Looks to be in good shape.

Anthem 1

thetawave2

Joe08867 wrote: »

Although I saw a Yaqin on the bay for 650.

I have come across Yaqin and some others on ebay and am considering them. Are these well-built? Do they sound good? Or would my 650 be better spent in a solid state amp?

Edit: The reason I word it this way is that tubes seem to be a bit of a different league than SS, and I haven't come across all that much at my price point so far.

heiney9

Sofia Baby is a rebadged Chinese unit from Meng and several other names like Music Angel, etc, beware as I have read some horror stories. And no that won't have enough grunt.

My top recommendation is this one:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1314737541&/Dared-I-30-Tube-Int-amp--6L6-P

Joe Zhou is the US distributor for Dared and he's a really good guy to work with.

These are nice, but most are sourced from China and the quality can vary a bit as well as the shipping cost.

http://cgi.ebay.com/YAQIN-MC-10L-Push-Pull-Integrated-Stereo-Tube-Amplifier-/130550544787?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item1e656b3993

http://cgi.ebay.com/YAQIN-MC10L-EL34-Class-Integrated-Valve-Tube-Amp-NR-/390330598946?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae1844622

Be aware the Dared is auto-bias so you don't need to set the bias whereas the Yaqin is manual bias, it's easy enough to understand and do. Just be aware. There is a third type of amp to be aware of and that's "fixed bias". A fixed bias amp requires closely matched tubes to perform the best. In general a closely matched quad of tubes costs more than a regular quad of tubes.
IMO, a fixed bias amp is least desireable but certainly doable.

H9

heiney9

thetawave2 wrote: »

I have come across Yaqin and some others on ebay and am considering them. Are these well-built? Do they sound good? Or would my 650 be better spent in a solid state amp?

Edit: The reason I word it this way is that tubes seem to be a bit of a different league than SS, and I haven't come across all that much at my price point so far.

Your price is going down. $750 max, then you said under $1k now you're saying $650 :eek:

The Yaqins have been good, but I'd make sure I bought from a good retailer. Some of the Chinese sellers, really sell junk even though it's the same amp.

I highly, highly recommend the Dared I-30, plus it's brand new with a warranty if that matters to you. Re-tubing any of your purchases is going to be expensive. The stock tubes that come with these are pretty mediocre.

H9

thetawave2

That Dared looks really nice. The DAC is a very nice feature. With that functionality I'd probably be willing to stretch my budget a bit!

I'll definitely be keeping Dared in mind as I do more research this fall.

Thanks for the tip on tube bias, by the way. I was wondering about that....

Joe08867

Nice choices H9.

Yaqin and Dared are very good. There are a few more out there but these are two companies I would have no problem buying from again.

heiney9

Here is another one that gets high marks and is sold stateside by a reputable distributor. It is fixed bias but it comes with some pretty decent tubes (Blue Tesla EL34's) so that's less of an issue.

http://www.pacificvalve.us/MDMC34A.html

thetawave2

heiney9 wrote: »

Your price is going down. $750 max, then you said under $1k now you're saying $650 :eek:
H9

Haha you caught me! :rolleyes:
Just kidding The under $1k was meant as a league (i.e. entry-level) rather than a budget, and the $650 was referring specifically to the Yaquin mentioned above.

heiney9

thetawave2 wrote: »

That Dared looks really nice. The DAC is a very nice feature. With that functionality I'd probably be willing to stretch my budget a bit!

I'll definitely be keeping Dared in mind as I do more research this fall.

Thanks for the tip on tube bias, by the way. I was wondering about that....

They rarely come up FS used. I've seen 3 in about a year. I put in bids on all of them, but didn't win. I have 3 Dared pieces currently and I've corresponded with Joe Zhou the seller and distributor, he's solid.

H9

michaeljhsda2

I bought my Yaqin MS-20L for 624 bucks including shipping from this seller who is based in Canada. He does QA testing on the amp before it's shipped out. Excellent seller. This is a very good integrated amp for the money IMHO.

http://cgi.ebay.com/YAQIN-MS-20L-Push-Pull-Integrated-Stereo-Tube-Amplifier-/140584411985?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item20bb7be351#ht_3104wt_1039

heiney9

michaeljhsda2 wrote: »

I bought my Yaqin MS-20L for 624 bucks including shipping from this seller who is based in Canada. He does QA testing on the amp before it's shipped out. Excellent seller. This is a very good integrated amp for the money IMHO.

http://cgi.ebay.com/YAQIN-MS-20L-Push-Pull-Integrated-Stereo-Tube-Amplifier-/140584411985?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item20bb7be351#ht_3104wt_1039

There you go, a testimonial and I agree, I'd buy from the Canadian importer before taking my chances from China since you have a choice.

H9

thetawave2

I am glad to be hearing good things about Yaqin here. They seemed to be my best option given my budget constraint.

I had heard about the Canadian ebay seller but wasn't sure of his name, so thanks very much for the link, Michael!

michaeljhsda2

thetawave2 wrote: »

I am glad to be hearing good things about Yaqin here. They seemed to be my best option given my budget constraint.

I had heard about the Canadian ebay seller but wasn't sure of his name, so thanks very much for the link, Michael!

You're welcome. Do you plan on rolling different tubes in it? My suggestion would be to listen to the amp for a few months in it's stock form and then if you want to try something different start with swapping out the 6J1's.

Just a few words of note: A couple of weeks after I bought the amp I rolled some GE 5654W's in place of the 6J1's but they went microphonic (noisy, high pitched sound could be heard when no music was playing) about 3 months after I installed them so I went back to the original 6J1's (Shuguang). The 6J1's sounded good to me from the day I bought the amp but everyone said how great the GE's were so I bought them. You never know what the outcome of tube rolling will be unless you try though. The GE's were only about 30 bucks but still...it was a bit of a waste of money (30 day return policy had elapsed).

As for the EL34-B's (Shuguang)...I think they're really good tubes and I have no plans to change them out at this time, however, the Shuguang Treasure Series look really nice.... this hobby can get expensive really quick. :eek:

Evrythngmatters

Tbone289 wrote: »

link? I find no reference to a Sophie Baby amp. Is that Sophia Baby?

This is the little guy I was talking about.
http://www.sophiaelectric.com/pages/amp/ampbaby.htm

I had the option to choose a Jolida tube amp as well and this little guy walked all over it. I wanna say the Jolida was the 502a if memory serves correctly. What do I know though, I am new to all this so a tubed toilet paper roll with cryoed string may sound as good,lol. I'm all about the journey, not the destination.

thetawave2

michaeljhsda2 wrote: »

My suggestion would be to listen to the amp for a few months in it's stock form and then if you want to try something different start with swapping out the 6J1's.

And a great suggestion it is! Tube rolling sounds interesting to me and I'll definitely get the upgrade itch after a short time so that will probably be my next step. However, I will hopefully have the self control to listen to the amp with stock tubes for a while.